Ten-year retirement visa doesn’t stand up to scrutiny

[webfact]

OPINION  LETTERS TO EDITOR

 

Ten-year retirement visa doesn’t stand up to scrutiny 

 

It is difficult to see who would rush to buy the new 10-year “retirement” visa announced on social media. It is actually a five-year visa renewable once, but the requirement to report every 90 days remains.

 

You now need to show Bt3 million, mostly or all in a Thai bank, and must have police clearance from your home country. The latter is difficult to obtain in some countries and virtually impossible if you happen to be American. 

 

Medical insurance is compulsory, but must be bought only from a Thai company with the document written in Thai. This suggests that many farang will need to have two insurance policies, since the cover required for the 10-year visa is too low to cover many surgical procedures. Of course, many older foreigners can’t buy any kind of medical insurance as they are at higher risk of serious hospitalisation.

 

In fact there are alternatives to the complex medical insurance scenario, such as leaving a sizeable deposit in a Thai hospital to help cover future contingencies. But that would require a government initiative. If you speak to bursars in Thai private sector hospitals, they will tell you that many non-insured aliens are rich enough to pay all their bills. Not all are on the breadline or are basket cases.

 

It is a foregone conclusion that retirees will continue to opt for the one-year extension, which is familiar and relatively straightforward.  But that assumes that new 10-year visa will indefinitely remain an alternative rather than a compulsory feature of the immigration menu! To be successful, the 10-year visa would need some perq such as the right to work part-time (as in Malaysia) or extended right to buy property (Indonesia) or hassle-free bureaucracy (Cambodia upcoming).

 

Barry Kenyon 

 

Full story: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/news/opinion/letter_to_editor/30318542

 

-- © Copyright The Nation 2017-06-20

 

[z42]

Only somebody stupidly desperate would go for this. I love Thailand but the clowns running it are utterly clueless really.

This visa looks truly pathetic at point of sale. Goodness knows what else lurks in the smallprint 

[trogers]

How does this new policy compared with the Elite card?

[Mooner]

Only Thais could come up with a new visa that is less desirable than what is already on offer.

[Tony45]

1 year Retirement visa is still the only way for me to go, for the very reasons cited in this article. I am 71 and so have the medical insurance issue as well.

[NCC1701A]

Stop calling it a 10 year visa or drop the 5 year "renewal". It insults everyone's intelligence right out the door.

 

Drop the 90 day reporting. Issue Farangs an ID card just like Thais have with a smart chip like a ATM card that can be swiped at immigration and updated with address and phone number once a year. 

 

The money requirement is OK.

 

Then they might have some interest in this new visa.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2017 by NCC1701A

[Lammbock]

37 minutes ago, trogers said:

How does this new policy compared with the Elite card?

With the elite card you kiss your money good-bye. But it's much more easier to obtain.

e.i. 1 Mil. THB gets you a 20 years Visa. Renewable every 5 years. Still you have to do 90 days reporting.

[Lemonltr]

35 minutes ago, Mooner said:

Only Thais could come up with a new visa that is less desirable than what is already on offer.

I wonder why I keep getting an uneasy feeling that these new visas are in preparation for the drastic alteration in the terms of the existing 'extension of stay'at 800.000 baht in bank or 65.000 monthly income.

I fully expect these requirements to be heightened substantially to lower the numbers of expats on 'moderate incomes staying here. I hope I am misguided in my suspicion.

[WhizBang]

Drop the 90 day reporting, across the board.  It is pointless.  Change it to: Report any permanent change of address to immigration within x days.

 

Offer health insurance to foreign residents at a reasonable price.   I have health insurance in my home country, so have little need for any here.  I pay as I go, but would like to get some reasonably priced accident insurance.

 

Nix the bank deposit requirement, or at a minimum reduce it to be inline with those on long stay.   Also nix the police report, at least for anyone who has been living here for years.

 

As StarTrek above said, issue us foreigners with a government approved ID card, which could be used as a valid ID anywhere in Thailand.

 

Finally, either it is a 10 year visa or it is a 5 year visa.  Make up your mind.  And how long is the stamp good for?  Do you get a 5 year stamp, or a one year stamp?  just curious.

 

And get all the online reporting working properly and reliably.

[WhizBang]

15 hours ago, Lammbock said:

With the elite card you kiss your money good-bye. But it's much more easier to obtain.

e.i. 1 Mil. THB gets you a 20 years Visa. Renewable every 5 years. Still you have to do 90 days reporting.

Actually I think it is 2M baht, unless it has changed.  Basically it is 100,000 baht/year.

 

Yes, very easy to get.  No bank deposit requirements, no medical insurance requirement and no police report.  You get a 1 year stamp on arrival and still have to do the 90 day reports, BUT, if live live near a Thailand Elite office, you can drop your passport off with them and they will take care of it for you.

 

As an added bonus you get a free limo ride to and from the airport and are walked through flight checkin, immigration and baggage claim, for outgoing and incoming international flights, but not domestic.

 

Forgot.  You also get an ID card, sort of.  It has your name and photo on it, plus the expiration date, and of course, Thailand Elite on it.   I have used it in a pinch when asked for ID

Edited June 20, 2017 by WhizBang

[Just1Voice]

Nine years ago I started with the Marriage Extension.  At my first renewal, the woman suggested I switch to the Retirement Extension, as it was much less of a hassle and paperwork.  20 minutes later we were out of there with the new Retirement Extension.  

 

Now I keep all the forms needed for both 90 day and 1 year renewal on my computer.  Print everything out and just add the date.  Since then, the longest I have ever had to wait was about 2 hours.  Usually in and out in 15 - 20 minutes, and this is in Chiang Mai.  

 

Once had an Immigration guy at the old office tell me that if everyone did their 90 day reports the way I do, their job would be so much easier.  

 

As for this new "10 Year" b.s., I can't see anyone in their right mind even thinking about it.  

For guys like me, retired and living on a VA & SS disability pension, the monetary requirements place it totally out of reach.  And anyone in Thailand over the age of 60 can forget about ANY Thai insurance company covering them. My wife, who worked for Muang Thai Insurance at the time, told me that we had to purchase life & hospital insurance BEFORE my 60th birthday, as we wouldn't be able to once I turned 60 in the following year.  Three years ago, at the age of 63,  I had a minor stroke.  The insurance covered it, paid the bill, then immediately cancelled my policy.  

Same story with my accident insurance.  Had an accident on my CB300f when an idiot pulled out right in front of me without looking.  They paid the bill, then immediately cancelled my policy. 

In January I had to have a heart bypass operation to restore circulation to my right leg.  300,000 baht.  I had to borrow the money from one of my wife's rich friends to pay for it up front.  I'm still paying it off. 

 

This new "10 Year Visa" is a joke. 

[Momofarang]

22 minutes ago, WhizBang said:

Actually I think it is 2M baht, unless it has changed.  Basically it is 100,000 baht/year.

 

Yes, very easy to get.  No bank deposit requirements, no medical insurance requirement and no police report.  You get a 1 year stamp on arrival and still have to do the 90 day reports, BUT, if live live near a Thailand Elite office, you can drop your passport off with them and they will take care of it for you.

 

As an added bonus you get a free limo ride to and from the airport and are walked through flight checkin, immigration and baggage claim, for outgoing and incoming international flights, but not domestic.

 

Forgot.  You also get an ID card, sort of.  It has your name and photo on it, plus the expiration date, and of course, Thailand Elite on it.   I have used it in a pinch when asked for ID

You can get 20 years for one million, but without the limo or other idiotic perks. Since mid 2016. As far as I am concerned it makes just as (un)attractive as the new 10 years scam, if I take into account the health insurance overhead, over 20 years.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Momofarang

[Sheryl]

The health insurance requirement, specifying it must be insurance from a Thai company, is indeed almost impossible to comply with and in itself will guarantee very few people avail of this visa.

 

In addition it is pointless since the required level of inpatient cover is way too low to be of use and the requirement for OPD cover (which will about double the premium) is unnecessary.

 

If they allowed for international policies and IPD only it would be a different matter. International insurers will issue policies to older people and their lowest level of cover is usually 500,000 - 1,000,000 USD. They also are govered by the insurance regulations of the country in which they are based which usually precludes cancelling a policy because of claims or increased risk profile. The regulatory framework in Thailand allows insurers to cancel at will.

 

 

[thaitero]

1 hour ago, Lemonltr said:

I wonder why I keep getting an uneasy feeling that these new visas are in preparation for the drastic alteration in the terms of the existing 'extension of stay'at 800.000 baht in bank or 65.000 monthly income.

I fully expect these requirements to be heightened substantially to lower the numbers of expats on 'moderate incomes staying here. I hope I am misguided in my suspicion.

I think this quite possible what is going to happen. So everyone with current retirement system should keep their retirement extensions alive and if possible not to use Home country O-A visas because there might be case of old rules grandfathered and that only applies to extensions not visas.

[Momofarang]

44 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

The health insurance requirement, specifying it must be insurance from a Thai company, is indeed almost impossible to comply with and in itself will guarantee very few people avail of this visa.

 

In addition it is pointless since the required level of inpatient cover is way too low to be of use and the requirement for OPD cover (which will about double the premium) is unnecessary.

 

If they allowed for international policies and IPD only it would be a different matter. International insurers will issue policies to older people and their lowest level of cover is usually 500,000 - 1,000,000 USD. They also are govered by the insurance regulations of the country in which they are based which usually precludes cancelling a policy because of claims or increased risk profile. The regulatory framework in Thailand allows insurers to cancel at will.

 

 

Which makes the "thing" sadly laughable, in light of the fact that immigration will be requested to verify eligibility on a yearly basis. Everything  is set up so that Farang retirees get deported because they suffered a heart attack..

[williamgeorgeallen]

2 hours ago, NCC1701A said:

Stop calling it a 10 year visa or drop the 5 year "renewal". It insults everyone's intelligence right out the door.

 

Drop the 90 day reporting. Issue Farangs an ID card just like Thais have with a smart chip like a ATM card that can be swiped at immigration and updated with address and phone number once a year. 

 

The money requirement is OK.

 

Then they might have some interest in this new visa.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

this would probably make it a good option for many. i would still rather pay 500k upfront for the elite visa than bring 3 mill into thailand. can be tricky to get funds out of thailand and when its time to leave you dont want to deal with trying to move funds out.  i have had to deal with doing it before and it is frustrating.

[IMA_FARANG]

It is a joke, but it is not funny.

I am a 70 year old man, and in the U.S. it is now nearly impossible to get health insurance at that age for a reasonable price.

Since Donald and his fools canceled "Obamacare"" as they call it that is out too.

Not that it ever would pay outside the U.S. anyway.

I just had a operation in February in Thailand to repair a broken bone in my left arm caused by a fall, and it cost me 200K Baht for the  operation and roughly another 100K for other associated medical and hospital expenses. I had the funds in my Thai Bank and paid the hospital In Thai Baht

I still get a U.S. Social Security pension which keeps me here in Thailand for the time being.and pays my living expenses.

How long is not known.

 

 

[sqwakvfr]

" wonder why I keep getting an uneasy feeling that these new visas are in preparation for the drastic alteration in the terms of the existing 'extension of stay'at 800.000 baht in bank or 65.000 monthly income.

I fully expect these requirements to be heightened substantially to lower the numbers of expats on 'moderate incomes staying here. I hope I am misguided in my suspicion."

 

This is my main concern about the 10 Year Visa.  The interesting parts for me are the 3 Million Bath Deposit and the need to deposit 1.8 Million Baht even with a monthly retirement income of 100,000 Baht.  Under the present requirement for the O-A Multi a monthly income of 65,000 Baht is the only thing I had to prove at the Consulate along with the police clearance and medical certificate.  In the future if the O-A requirements fall in line with the 10 year visa then I would have to find another place to live.  

 

Thanks Lemonltr for making this observation.  

[BMW Overlander]

2 hours ago, Lammbock said:

With the elite card you kiss your money good-bye. But it's much more easier to obtain.

e.i. 1 Mil. THB gets you a 20 years Visa. Renewable every 5 years. Still you have to do 90 days reporting.

 

1 Mil gets you 10 not 20 years.

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, BMW Overlander said:

 

1 Mil gets you 10 not 20 years.

It allows 20 years. See: http://www.thailandelite.com/#/at-your-service/card/elite-superiority-extension-membership

[Jingthing]

35 minutes ago, IMA_FARANG said:

It is a joke, but it is not funny.

I am a 70 year old man, and in the U.S. it is now nearly impossible to get health insurance at that age for a reasonable price.

Since Donald and his fools canceled "Obamacare"" as they call it that is out too.

Not that it ever would pay outside the U.S. anyway.

I just had a operation in February in Thailand to repair a broken bone in my left arm caused by a fall, and it cost me 200K Baht for the  operation and roughly another 100K for other associated medical and hospital expenses. I had the funds in my Thai Bank and paid the hospital In Thai Baht

I still get a U.S. Social Security pension which keeps me here in Thailand for the time being.and pays my living expenses.

How long is not known.

 

 

Americans over 65 generally go on Medicare which will continue to exist. Of course, it's useless for those living abroad.

[Jingthing]

Regarding the new visa, I have to agree very few people are going to go for it as long as the existing one year retirement extension continues.

 

So basically, it's rather a 

[robsamui]

3 hours ago, Lemonltr said:

I wonder why I keep getting an uneasy feeling that these new visas are in preparation for the drastic alteration in the terms of the existing 'extension of stay'at 800.000 baht in bank or 65.000 monthly income.

I fully expect these requirements to be heightened substantially to lower the numbers of expats on 'moderate incomes staying here. I hope I am misguided in my suspicion.

 

Boss: Hey Sombat come help me make up new ideas to get more aliens to land on planet Thailand.

Sombat: Sure boss.

Boss: I know! We get all the pubs n clubs to close at 1:00 am. That'll attract lots of young aliens because they will be more safe!
Sombat: But boss . . . . 
Boss: Aha! We close down Pattaya with all those terrible sexy ladies and turn it into a family theme park and golfers paradise!
Sombat: But boss . . . 

Boss: Yes! We'll put a 400% tax on wine! It's filthy foreign stuff and no Thai farmer would ever want to drink it!
Sombat: But boss . . . why don't we pull in more old aliens who've got lots and lots of money instead.
Boss:: Stupid idea Sombat. I know - we'll target the old aliens because they're rich!
Sombat: Great idea boss! How about offering them tax-free incentives and special deals for extended land ownership? Or an easy visa package . . .

Boss: Stupid boy! We'll lose money from less tax coming in! And who wants aliens owning land here - very unpatriotic.
Sombat: Why don't we make it easier for them to . . . 

Boss: Silence! We don't make it EASIER! That will make us look like a nation of fools! We're smarter than that! This is the best country in the world - everyone wants to come here. So what we'll do is to make it a challenge, then everyone will realise how exclusive we are. We'll make em give us millions of baht first, to show how keen they are. Then we'll make em buy our special insurance cuz they're old and probably falling apart already - don't wanna overload our hospitals. Then we'll give em a big fat visa for life - let's say 5 years.

Sombat: But boss . . . 

Boss: What - You think they'll not have dropped dead already in 5 years? Sigh. OK then if they last that long we'll let them spend their money here for another five years - that should finish them off. And anyway there will be thousands more waiting in line for our special retirement package - it's just so damned attractive!

Sombat: But boss . . .  

Boss: Be quiet Sombat. You have no idea how to attract quality aliens to come here to our amazing Thailand. Just look how smart my last idea was  - to pull-in millions of Chinese.
Sombat: But the Chinese don't spend any money. And the big spenders have all gone back to Europe and Australia and America because it's . . . 
Boss: Silence boy! You know nothing! Now come here and help me with my new idea - I hear there's a country somewhere called Somalia. It's a very nice name. The aliens there must be very nice. Let's try to attract lots and lots of people from that place.

Sombat: But boss . . . . 

Edited June 20, 2017 by robsamui

[jippytum]

2 hours ago, thaitero said:

I think this quite possible what is going to happen. So everyone with current retirement system should keep their retirement extensions alive and if possible not to use Home country O-A visas because there might be case of old rules grandfathered and that only applies to extensions not visas.

3 hours ago, Lemonltr said:

I wonder why I keep getting an uneasy feeling that these new visas are in preparation for the drastic alteration in the terms of the existing 'extension of stay'at 800.000 baht in bank or 65.000 monthly income.

I fully expect these requirements to be heightened substantially to lower the numbers of expats on 'moderate incomes staying here. I hope I am misguided in my suspicion.

IF as you fear they want to reduce the expats on moderate income they only have to stop the use of agents for retirement extensions.That would do the trick !

[Fore Man]

51 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Americans over 65 generally go on Medicare which will continue to exist. Of course, it's useless for those living abroad.

Not useless at all if you are retired US military eligible for Tricare for Life (TFL) and signed up prior to age 65 for Medicare Part B.  75% of all allowed overseas medical expenses get refunded to the patient, once a yearly copay of $150 per person/$300 per family is met. There is also an annual catastrophic cap of $3,000 in effect, which means that all bills beyond that cap are 100% paid.  Get one major operation done in Thailand...anything at or beyond THB 100,000 or so and you'll immediately likely meet your annual cap. It's a boon for retired military members, but there are some concerns over expected rising Part B monthly premiums ($133 at this writing) that might somewhat diminish the benefits offered by Tricare For Life depending on a retiree's financial status.  Conversely, these retirees who live within the USA (or travel there to receive medical treatment) fall wholly under Medicare rules and can experience more difficulties in finding doctors or getting certain care performed. There are fine hairs to be split in my explanation and I welcome any reader to update or correct this post. 

 

[Jingthing]

Just now, Fore Man said:

Not useless at all if you are retired US military eligible for Tricare for Life (TFL) and signed up prior to age 65 for Medicare Part B.  75% of all allowed overseas medical expenses get refunded to the patient, once a yearly copay of $150 per person/$300 per family is met. There is also an annual catastrophic cap of $3,000 in effect, which means that all bills beyond that cap are 100% paid.  Get one major operation done in Thailand...anything at or beyond THB 100,000 or so and you'll immediately likely meet your annual cap. It's a boon for retired military members, but there are some concerns over expected rising Part B monthly premiums ($133 at this writing) that might somewhat diminish the benefits offered by Tricare For Life depending on a retiree's financial status.  Conversely, these retirees who live within the USA (or travel there to receive medical treatment) fall wholly under Medicare rules and can experience more difficulties in finding doctors or getting certain care performed. There are fine hairs to be split in my explanation and I welcome any reader to update or correct this post. 

 

Irrelevant for non-veterans. In general Medicare is indeed USELESS for Americans living abroad. 

[TEFLKrabi]

You get the impression they start the process with 'where and how can we make money from this?' And then they start planning.

[TheFishman1]

Please stop insulting my intelligence 

[edwardflory]

POLICE CLEARANCE LETTE: lt is difficult to obtain in some countries and virtually impossible if you happen to be American. 

 

Washington DC police will issue such a letter.  If you need / want let me know. Cost $100USD  and can be legally done while you are in Thailand in a few days

 

Contact me for information

[klauskunkel]

tomorrows combined MOFA/TAT article:

New 10 Year Retirement Visa Instant Success

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has declared that the new visa is a hit with expats and retirees from other countries alike. "People are asking about it on Facebook and Line-App. We don't have enough staff to answer. It's like a flood of old people set loose!"

This is the quote from TAT: "The numbers are up."