Good start, not enough: EU leaders mull May's Brexit offer

[webfact]

Good start, not enough: EU leaders mull May's Brexit offer

By Elizabeth Piper and Noah Barkin

 

Prime Minister Theresa May and European Council President Donald Tusk pose during a EU leaders summit in Brussels, Belgium June 22, 2017. REUTERS/Francois Lenoir

 

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Theresa May offered fellow EU leaders a "fair" deal on Thursday for compatriots living in Britain after Brexit, though her peers sounded sceptical and demanded more detail from a prime minister weakened by an electoral misfire two weeks ago.

 

Given the floor for 10 minutes at the end of a Brussels summit dinner, her first since she launched the two-year withdrawal process in March, May outlined five principles, notably that no EU citizen resident in Britain at a cut-off date would be deported. There are roughly 3 million living there now.

 

That was, she told them, "a fair and serious offer", a British official said. It was "aimed at giving as much certainty as possible to citizens who have settled in the UK, building careers and lives, and contributing so much to our society".

 

Promising details on Monday, May also said those EU citizens who had lived in Britain for five years could stay for life.

 

Those there for less would be allowed to stay until they reach the five-year threshold for "settled status". Red tape for permanent residency would be cut there would be a two-year grace period to avoid "cliff edge" misfortunes.

 

German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who earlier said she wanted "far-reaching guarantees", described giving full rights to those in Britain for five years as "a good start" but said many questions remained.

 

"It is a first good step which we appreciate," said Austrian Chancellor Christian Kern. "Many details are left open. A lot of European citizens are concerned and not covered by May’s proposal. There is a long, long way to go for negotiations."

 

Other leaders offered few details on their reservations.

 

May's push to set the cut-off date as early as March 29 this year, is unlikely to wash with many in the European Union, whose position is that nothing must change until Britain leaves -- scheduled for March 30, 2019. And there was much missing from an outline offer which the British previously called "generous".

 

NO DISCUSSION

 

Another sticking point could be May's rejection of another EU demand that expats be able to enforce their rights in the EU court. The source said they would have to accept British judges.

 

Brussels has been dismissive of May's call for sweeping and quick guarantees for expats, including over a million Britons on the continent, and says only detailed legal texts can reassure and take account of complex, multinational family situations.

 

Leaders had agreed with summit chair Donald Tusk not to open discussions with May and she left immediately afterwards, leaving the other 27 to discuss other Brexit issues without her.

 

They were briefed by Michel Barnier, who launched the Brexit negotiations for them on Monday, and discussed the move of two EU agencies from London after Britain quits.

 

Merkel and French President Emmanuel Macron, among others, had made clear that they did not want to be drawn into Brexit talks and wanted to focus on the future of the EU minus Britain.

 

May seemed keen to calm the mood with the continentals after weeks of sniping during her election campaign, stressing that London wanted a "special and deep partnership with our friends and allies in Europe".

 

Merkel also expressed a desire for constructive talks with Britain, but made clear that the EU's priority now was its own future: "We will conduct these talks in a good spirit," she said. "But the clear focus has to be on the future of the 27."

 

France's new president spoke of working with Germany to revive European integration and Macron did not refer at all to Britain during his remarks before talks got under way.

 

"NOT THE ONLY DREAMER"

 

Weakened by an election she did not need to call, May has watered down her government's programme to try to get it through parliament and set a softer tone in her approach to Brexit.

 

Yet her aims have held - she wants a clean break from the bloc, leaving the lucrative single market and customs union and so reducing immigration and ending EU courts' jurisdiction.

 

On Thursday, her finance minister, Philip Hammond called for an early agreement on transitional arrangements to ease uncertainty that he said was hurting business.

 

Reflecting confusion on the continent about what kind of Brexit she will ask for, Tusk said ahead of a separate meeting with May: "We can hear different predictions, coming from different people, about the possible outcome of these negotiations: hard Brexit, soft Brexit or no deal."

 

Some Britons had asked him if he could imagine Britain not leaving after all: "The European Union was built on dreams that seemed impossible to achieve. So, who knows?," the former Polish prime minister said before quoting John Lennon's song "Imagine":

 

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I am not the only one."

 

(Additional reporting by Alastair Macdonald, Robin Emmott, Jan Strupczewski, Elizabeth Miles, Charlotte Steenackers, Philip Blenkinsop, Gabriela Baczynska, Tom Koerkemeier, Andreas Rinke, Jean-Baptiste Vey, Peter Maushagen and Alissa de Carbonnel in Brussels; Writing by Alastair Macdonald; Editing by Noah Barkin)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-06-23

[jesimps]

The EU, especially Grupenfuhrer Merkel, keep picking over TM's citizenship offer, but have.still not given any assurances about Brits living in the EU countries.

TM tried to sort this out with the fat frau just after the Brexit vote but was dismissed out of hand.

I'd like to see a positive outcome from these talks but it seems impossible to negotiate with these EU types.

I dread it but in the end I think we'll just have to walk. That's if parliament oks it.

 

[dick dasterdly]

10 minutes ago, jesimps said:

The EU, especially Grupenfuhrer Merkel, keep picking over TM's citizenship offer, but have.still not given any assurances about Brits living in the EU countries.

TM tried to sort this out with the fat frau just after the Brexit vote but was dismissed out of hand.

I'd like to see a positive outcome from these talks but it seems impossible to negotiate with these EU types.

I dread it but in the end I think we'll just have to walk. That's if parliament oks it.

 

I agree.

 

There seems no doubt now that only the worst of deals is going to be on offer - and politicians hope that the brit electorate will be frightened enough to accept either this, or given the 'opportunity' to remain an eu member.

 

With a bit of luck the electorate will be so pissed off at the appalling deal endorsed by their politicians that, (assuming this is the case) they will vote those MPs out of office.

 

But this is just my opinion as to how things will 'play out'.

[dunroaming]

Need to see the details which May cannot discuss openly.  That will be for the negotiating team.  Still it is a start and you have to start somewhere!

[dunroaming]

48 minutes ago, jesimps said:

I dread it but in the end I think we'll just have to walk. That's if parliament oks it.

 

Well we wouldn't be in this situation without people voting out, which they did with much cheering!  The Brexiteers like Johnson, Davis, Fox, Gove and others said that this was a great opportunity for the UK.  Now they are all agreed that it is going to be really hard to get a good deal and they will have to fight for everything scrap.  Gone is the bravado as people realise that Britain has been weakened by the whole process.

[Grouse]

Can't this damned woman get ANYTHING right??

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40378913

Edited June 23, 2017 by Grouse

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, jesimps said:

The EU, especially Grupenfuhrer Merkel, keep picking over TM's citizenship offer, but have.still not given any assurances about Brits living in the EU countries.

TM tried to sort this out with the fat frau just after the Brexit vote but was dismissed out of hand.

I'd like to see a positive outcome from these talks but it seems impossible to negotiate with these EU types.

I dread it but in the end I think we'll just have to walk. That's if parliament oks it.

 

I think Merkel is rather more senior than gruppenfuehrer! If you're going to come out with crappy WW2 insults, get it right and get the language correct. You do know that fuehrer means guide (as in tour leader)?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruppenführer

Edited June 23, 2017 by Grouse

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, jesimps said:

The EU, especially Grupenfuhrer Merkel, keep picking over TM's citizenship offer, but have.still not given any assurances about Brits living in the EU countries.

TM tried to sort this out with the fat frau just after the Brexit vote but was dismissed out of hand.

I'd like to see a positive outcome from these talks but it seems impossible to negotiate with these EU types.

I dread it but in the end I think we'll just have to walk. That's if parliament oks it.

 

 

33 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I think Merkel is rather more senior than gruppenfuehrer! If you're going to come out with crappy WW2 insults, get it right and get the language correct. You do know that fuehrer means guide (as in tour leader)?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruppenführer

Why even bother to comment on a post wherein a physical attribute of a woman political leader is somehow considered germane to the issue? Such inanity.

[nuakmuaynina]

May is not in a good position in these negotiations. She has no mandate and the other leaders know this.

 

Of course they are going to look after their own interests. the UK has seriously over estimated its own importance. 

[tomacht8]

4 hours ago, jesimps said:

The EU, especially Grupenfuhrer Merkel, keep picking over TM's citizenship offer, but have.still not given any assurances about Brits living in the EU countries.

TM tried to sort this out with the fat frau just after the Brexit vote but was dismissed out of hand.

I'd like to see a positive outcome from these talks but it seems impossible to negotiate with these EU types.

I dread it but in the end I think we'll just have to walk. That's if parliament oks it.

 

What do you expect here? That the Brexit is regulated in a 10 minute side talk.

That is naive bar stool thinking.

 

 

[OJAS]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Can't this damned woman get ANYTHING right??

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40378913

So what more does that bumbling incompetent of a Euro-clown called Juncker seriously expect then?

[CharlieK]

Until a deal is struck, the rhetoric is all a load of BS. Though I would like very much for PM May to just say enough is enough and say we are out go swing. Once the EU realises how it will effect them as much as the UK maybe just maybe reform of the EU might happen. Regardless of the UK. The EU is still in a precarious situation regarding sorting out the mess that is the Euro and PIGS countries.  

 

Imagine the effect of 3 million euro citizens returning to their countries from the UK, with the amount of unemployment in the EEC. total chaos! 

 

In reality I don't see the UK leaving, This is all a charade that will keep the UK in the protectionist EU, any bets the UK will adopt the Euro as it's currency?   

Edited June 23, 2017 by CharlieK

[lungbing]

1 hour ago, nuakmuaynina said:

May is not in a good position in these negotiations. She has no mandate and the other leaders know this.

 

Of course they are going to look after their own interests. the UK has seriously over estimated its own importance. 

Yeh, we are are so unimportant that the EU leaders are still virtually begging us to stay.  perhaps they can forsee the huge deficit in their budget when we leave.

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, lungbing said:

Yeh, we are are so unimportant that the EU leaders are still virtually begging us to stay.  perhaps they can forsee the huge deficit in their budget when we leave.

Huh? They are virtually begging the UK to stay by saying they're not even going to negotiate post-Brexit terms until Brexit has been settled? By asking for 100 billion Euros? And there's a lot more where those came from. Usually, the angry Brexiteers are denouncing the EU for imposing unreasonable demands on the UK. This is, I believe, the first time I've seen the EU accused of "virtually begging".

[ilostmypassword]

4 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

Until a deal is struck, the rhetoric is all a load of BS. Though I would like very much for PM May to just say enough is enough and say we are out go swing. Once the EU realises how it will effect them as much as the UK maybe just maybe reform of the EU might happen. Regardless of the UK. The EU is still in a precarious situation regarding sorting out the mess that is the Euro and PIGS countries.  

Compare the size of the EU economy without the UK to the size of the UK economy. How can you rationally say that both parties will be affected equally?  Is there something called the "Empire Effect" that warps the thinking of a sizable number of UK citizens?

[dunroaming]

10 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

Until a deal is struck, the rhetoric is all a load of BS. Though I would like very much for PM May to just say enough is enough and say we are out go swing. Once the EU realises how it will effect them as much as the UK maybe just maybe reform of the EU might happen. Regardless of the UK. The EU is still in a precarious situation regarding sorting out the mess that is the Euro and PIGS countries.  

There was a time when that was almost a valid argument but with Macron on board the EU is far more stable that it was.  Leaving the EU is bad news all round, both for them and the UK.

 

As for saying May should say enough is enough,  you clearly don't  get the relevance of this divorce at all.

[CharlieK]

29 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Compare the size of the EU economy without the UK to the size of the UK economy. How can you rationally say that both parties will be affected equally?  Is there something called the "Empire Effect" that warps the thinking of a sizable number of UK citizens?

An EU economy that is saddled with the depts of the PIGS countries. The only country benefitting from this fiasco is Germany.  Why do you think they want the UK to stay, second to Germany the UK economy is the strongest. Or is Germany going to pick up the tab on it's own? 

 

3,000,0000 Returning EU citizens with no Jobs to go to. May needs to call their bluff.

Edited June 23, 2017 by CharlieK

[CharlieK]

29 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

There was a time when that was almost a valid argument but with Macron on board the EU is far more stable that it was.  Leaving the EU is bad news all round, both for them and the UK.

 

As for saying May should say enough is enough,  you clearly don't  get the relevance of this divorce at all.

really? I get it, I just don't think the serious talking has started yet, whence my comment that it is all BS rhetoric until a deal is struck, if a deal is struck? Besides Macrons election was from 42% of votes. 58% of the voting public didn't vote in the second round of the French elections. So hardly a stable EU because of it. 

Edited June 23, 2017 by CharlieK

[ilostmypassword]

15 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

An EU economy that is saddled with the depts of the PIGS countries. The only country benefitting from this fiasco is Germany.  Why do you think they want the UK to stay, second to Germany the UK economy is the strongest. Or is Germany going to pick up the tab on it's own? 

 

3,000,0000 Returning EU citizens with no Jobs to go to. May needs to call their bluff.

I got news for you. It's only the Eurozone countries that are saddled with that debt. So the UK's departure has no effect on that at all.

And what would happen to the UK economy if they all departed? Talk about empty threats.

[CharlieK]

4 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

I got news for you. It's only the Eurozone countries that are saddled with that debt. So the UK's departure has no effect on that at all.

And what would happen to the UK economy if they all departed? Talk about empty threats.

Please! Where did I say the UK is responsible for the EU debt. Please don't put words into my mouth that I never said. But they sure would like 60 billion for leaving the EU cartel!

Edited June 23, 2017 by CharlieK

[onthesoi]

What a surprise ....Deal or not, the UK will be in a worse position out of Europe!

 

Pity it took the Brexiteers so long to comprehend what was blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain.

[ilostmypassword]

2 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

Please! Where did I say the UK is responsible for the EU debt. Please don't put words into my mouth that I never said. But they sure would like 60 billion for leaving a cartel!

You said an "EU economy that is saddled with the debts of PIG countries". The EU economy includes the UK. It's the Eurozone that is saddled with PIG debts.

[CharlieK]

3 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

You said an "EU economy that is saddled with the debts of PIG countries". The EU economy includes the UK. It's the Eurozone that is saddled with PIG debts.

The UK doesn't use the Euro does it?   

Edited June 23, 2017 by CharlieK

[ilostmypassword]

2 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

The UK doesn't use the Euro does it?   

You wrote it's an EU problem. It's not an EU problem. It's a Eurozone problem. Any nation that hasn't adopted the euro is not responsible for the debts of the PIG countries.

[dunroaming]

15 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

really? I get it, I just don't think the serious talking has started yet, whence my comment that it is all BS rhetoric until a deal is struck, if a deal is struck?

I am  confused.  First you say that May should say "enough is enough" and then you say that the serious talk hasn't started yet?  Well you are correct that the serious talks haven't started yet so it would be a bit foolhardy to say "enough is enough".  We have two years of "negotiating" before anything is agreed and all the offers are on the table.  Until then May can't make any decisions at all. 

[onthesoi]

The UK owes the EU money because it signed legal contracts and made financial commitments.

----

 

The UK's unrealistic and naive expectations could be illustrated as follows:

 

A person willingly signs up to a 1 year gym membership with agreed monthly payments.

After 6 months the person cancels the direct debit and refuse to pay or offer any settlement.

The person then contacts the Gym and tries to a make a new, pay as you go type deal, so they can still use the Gym but on better terms than the previous contract.

All the other Gym members are watching to see what the outcome will be!

 

What will the Gym do?

 

 

Edited June 23, 2017 by onthesoi

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, OJAS said:

So what more does that bumbling incompetent of a Euro-clown called Juncker seriously expect then?

Frankly, he seems rather less incompetent than we do. Unless we can field a better team we should capitulate. Croquet anyone?

[nong38]

The big problem as I see it is that the EU want to have EU citizens live under EC laws and not accept the UK laws, but Brits living in the EU will not live under UK laws, they will live under EU laws, a bit odd if you think about it. A bit like me living in Thailand and saying I live under UK laws.

I was under the impression that the UK would import all the EU laws and then get rid of the ones we wanted to over time, so EU citizens would effectively be living under EU laws but with UK judges.

If the EU want the UK to accept the European Courts in the UK then what is the point of leaving the EU!

This could be the end of the game at the begining, again its dogmatic politicians wallowing in their own self importance and not thinking about the big picture where most ordinary people live, they will still have/hope to have a job regardless of the outcome.

 

I had hoped we could still have good and friendly relations with our continental chums but if some are going to be shotty we must be prepared to walk away and let them get on with it, the EU citizens currently in the UK can make their choice if they want to stay and maybe become UK passport holders or return, similarly our ex pats over there may have a choice to make.

 

Who would want to stay in an organization like the EU when they behave like this.

[elliss]

  Imagine there is  No Brexit ,   easy  if we try . 

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, onthesoi said:

Pity it took the Brexiteers so long to comprehend what was blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain.

"There ficker than us" ...from you?  AGAIN.....?

Edited June 23, 2017 by evadgib