Can't correctly pronounce the high tone

[DUS]

Hi,

 

I struggle badly with pronouncing the high tone correctly. Depending on the word I  seem to regularly pronounce it as a rising tone. Even if I focus 100x on getting one word/syllable right the Thai speaker always says I am pronouncing it wrong (as a rising tone). Very frustrating! 

 

Example:

 

ค้า.

 

Despite my best effort I am told I pronounce it as ขา.

 

Now, I know that "in theory" the high tone starts at a higher than your normal pitch and then goes even a little bit higher from there. In a sense, as I see it, it actually rises in its pitch level. But, as I said, even when trying to get it right 100 times with a native Thai speaker next to me, I always get it wrong.

 

So, after a long time trying to learn the language I am about to give up. But in a last ditch attempt to save the 1 year already invested in learning Thai (obviously with minimal success) I thought I ask here. Maybe those of you who've mastered the language can give me some tips on what I could try to get over my issue with the high tone.

 

Cheers

DUS

[bannork]

Despite my best effort I am told I pronounce it as ขา.

sounds like you're putting in too much rising tone and starting too low.

Concentrate on minimal rising tone, starting in mid -tone  and focus on reaching the high tone, which sounds like warning  someone from afar -'John!' (don't climb that tree there's a poisonous snake there)-not the same as calling someone from afar when you're searching for them which is like falling tone -John! ( where are you?)

 Take a very common high tone word- buy-ซื้อ-  add what- อะไร=what are you buying- ซื้ออะไร  ask a Thai to read it slowly to you and you'll hear how the high tone sounds.

Don't get stuck on one word- language consists of many words and if you can pronounce other words, you can come back to ค้า later. Exposure help so much- you may not notice it but day by day you'll improve. sometimes a Thai may laugh at your pronunciation but never mind, persevere, familiarity breeds better Thai not contempt finally!

[OJAS]

7 hours ago, DUS said:

the Thai speaker always says I am pronouncing it wrong (as a rising tone)

In which case I suggest that you consider pulling up the Thai speaker on their English pronounciation (which is far from 100% faultless in most cases in my experience)! 

[bangkokbanjo]

Not worth giving up on speaking. You will be understood, just as you understand poor englush grammar. Plenty of youtube videos to guide you.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[CaptHaddock]

To the OP,

 

Since you don't mention a teacher, I gather that you have been teaching yourself Thai.  If so, why did you believe that you could learn Thai by yourself?  Had you ever taught yourself a foreign language successfully?  Do you speak any language other than English fluently?  Had you met other foreigners in Thailand who became fluent in Thai on their own?  I am guessing the answer to all of these questions is a resounding "no."

 

So, the "tip" you are asking for is this: your method of self-study was always bound to fail.  I myself can speak all the Thai tones correctly, although I still make mistakes.  Thais frequently tell me that I speak ชัด.  One Uber driver even went so far as to remark that I spoke Thai more clearly than the Thais, but he was being excessively generous.  Thais have very low expectations of us.

 

I worked at it for a long time with qualified Thai teachers one-on-one. They corrected me every time I misspoke, not just for the tones, but for long vowels, grammar, usage, and all the rest.  In those days I was studying 15 hours a week.  It took me more than a year before I "got" it and could produce the tones correctly even if I continue to make mistakes.  So, figure at least 1000 hours, maybe more, of correction.  The Thai tones, by the way, are a great pleasure.

 

If you were to go about it in the right way, you could learn Thai and its tones, too.  Otherwise, you should probably take up billiards or something.

 

[DUS]

50 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

To the OP,

 

Since you don't mention a teacher, I gather that you have been teaching yourself Thai.  If so, why did you believe that you could learn Thai by yourself?  Had you ever taught yourself a foreign language successfully?  Do you speak any language other than English fluently?  Had you met other foreigners in Thailand who became fluent in Thai on their own?  I am guessing the answer to all of these questions is a resounding "no."

 

Thanks for your feedback even though you are mistaken to believe that I have been only self-teaching and/or that I don't speak other languages fluently. 

 

Will certainly try working with bannork's tip and see if that helps.

[CaptHaddock]

19 minutes ago, DUS said:

Thanks for your feedback even though you are mistaken to believe that I have been only self-teaching and/or that I don't speak other languages fluently. 

 

Will certainly try working with bannork's tip and see if that helps.

Good luck with that.  Mr. Bannork's no doubt well-meaning comments are gibberish. 

 

[DUS]

2 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

Good luck with that.  Mr. Bannork's no doubt well-meaning comments are gibberish. 

 

You are a jolly fella. I like that ... 

[Marc K]

Well I am far from being expert in tones, but the way that most works for me is to think of high tone as a sustained high tone, I don't hear it rising, and I always aim higher than I think necessary. Even in doing so it seems to come out lower than it should. A Thai speaker once suggested that you envision being slugged in the stomach. Now what would you be your exclamatory reply? Hope this helps.

 

As for me I have more difficulty with the rising tone, as I start too high. Apparently one is to start even slightly lower than the lower tone? Hmmm, I guess we all have to still keep working on these...

[canuckamuck]

Don't worry about making it rise, just use a higher pitch, try not to extend it. Make it short.

[Damrongsak]

Learn some Thai children songs and you might get the pitch right.

 

Then go to some other province where the tones and pitches are different (Isaan).  Loads of fun.

 

I remember being told by my Thai teachers 40 years ago that older people have a hard time because their hearing isn't as good.  Fact of life.  When I speak Thai, I do try to sing a bit. Otherwise I have a few grunts, squeaks and groans that I use.  Sounds that water buffaloes and other common animals make. 

[bannork]

.

Here you can hear the slight rise in tone before reaching the high tone. But as mentioned by other posters, you can ignore it and concentrate on the high tone. Listen to her rising tone in comparison to her high tone - you can really hear how much lower down the rising tone starts.

[Richard W]

Indeed, there are reports that Thais actually recognise the rising tone by its reaching a lower pitch than any other tone!

[whatever_works]

For the Op

I enjoyed  Bannork's response the most, and his second response is a good clip as well.

But I will never forget  Stu Jay Raj's  Dennis the menace clip, its the best. After much searching I found it referenced in an earlier post in this forum. The best part of the video starts at 9:00 minutes but you might enjoy the entire video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV1F8ZE_AyA

And i realize you want / need to have immediate command of this tone to be understood, but keep in mind that your command of the language will continue to evolve over time. There are muscles that need to be built up over time and as you do your ear will become more attuned to nuances. Your accent will not become fixed or locked so long as you continue to take an interest in it and are willing to put some work into it.  Reading aloud even simple material , even repetitively is good exercise for this if you can have endure the rote'nes .

[1SteveC]

11 hours ago, CaptHaddock said:

I myself can speak all the Thai tones correctly, although I still make mistakes. 

 

? It is one or the other.

[whatever_works]

47 minutes ago, 1SteveC said:

 

? It is one or the other.

On this point i gotta way in  for CaptHaddock ,  I think he's saying that even when you have "built" a command of tones , you will still often slip on the tones. It may be more a curse for native english speakers. Stu J  discusses it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMWqWx0hSn4  (i'm obviously a fan).

I think it's  great that  CaptHaddock has found a learning method that works for well for him, so well he want's to share his path. He just needs to keep in mind that people learn in different ways. Some by seeing some by doing  yada yada......

Edited June 25, 2017 by whatever_works

[fire69water]

While it is true that most Thais use 'start-high-go-higher' for their high tones, foreigners don't have to follow suit—just go plain soprano and you'd be fine. 

[Maestro]

On 2017-6-24 at 10:22 AM, DUS said:

Now, I know that "in theory" the high tone starts at a higher than your normal pitch and then goes even a little bit higher from there. In a sense, as I see it, it actually rises in its pitch level.

 

My feeling is that you should not focus on increasing the pitch a little from the starting level. I have a feeling that the pitch increases automatically a bit without your making a deliberate effort to steer it that way. It seems to me that the focus should rather be on ensuring that the pitch does not fall slightly.

 

I tried to test it with some of the audio frequency analyser apps for Android but could not make sense of the readings, could not get a timeline graph of the frequency.

 

Have you recorded your voice and then played it back?

[Richard W]

5 hours ago, Maestro said:

My feeling is that you should not focus on increasing the pitch a little from the starting level. I have a feeling that the pitch increases automatically a bit without your making a deliberate effort to steer it that way. It seems to me that the focus should rather be on ensuring that the pitch does not fall slightly.

That doesn't sound right.  There are two significant allotones, described numerically as 453 for live syllables and 55 for short dead syllables.  I'm not sure what it should be for long dead syllables.

 

For a description, see http://www.thai-language.com/ref/tones,  though the curves given are at least a generation old.

[EricTh]

On 6/25/2017 at 9:01 AM, DUS said:

Thanks for your feedback even though you are mistaken to believe that I have been only self-teaching and/or that I don't speak other languages fluently. 

 

Will certainly try working with bannork's tip and see if that helps.

 

Speaking other European languages fluently which is similar to English is a whole different ball game than learning Thai.

 

European languages have a lot of similarities with English since they belong to same language family.

 

That said, a Chinese who grew up with tonal language would have less problem in learning Thai (than a European descent) as both Chinese and Thai are tonal languages. Some Chinese linguists even group them as the same languages family.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by EricTh

[EricTh]

On 6/25/2017 at 0:18 AM, bangkokbanjo said:

Not worth giving up on speaking. You will be understood, just as you understand poor englush grammar. Plenty of youtube videos to guide you.


 

 

That's not entirely true. If there are similarities in the sounds, you will be misunderstood.

 

I remember one of my classmate saying 'kao soi' but the waitress gave her 'white rice' instead. She really meant the northern Thai dish 'kao soi'. There are many other situations too.

 

In some short sentences, they will know what you meant but not when there are long sentences and many sentences spoken together. They can get lost quickly.

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by EricTh

[Briggsy]

See if this is still supported. Hours of tonal fun.

[EricTh]

On 6/27/2017 at 10:11 AM, Richard W said:

 

For a description, see http://www.thai-language.com/ref/tones,  though the curves given are at least a generation old.

 

I have seen this chart a lot but I think it is NOT entirely correct.

 

The rising tone doesn't rise like that.

 

The chart must have been drawn by a non-Thai farang.

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by EricTh

[EricTh]

On 6/25/2017 at 8:06 AM, CaptHaddock said:

 

 

I worked at it for a long time with qualified Thai teachers one-on-one. They corrected me every time I misspoke, not just for the tones, but for long vowels, grammar, usage, and all the rest.  In those days I was studying 15 hours a week.  It took me more than a year before I "got" it and could produce the tones correctly even if I continue to make mistakes.

 

 

One-on-one? You must have paid a lot of money for one-on-one sessions.

 

I was in one of the teaching Thai classrooms (YMCA) observing how the teacher teach.

 

I noticed a lot of the students didn't speak proper tones but the teacher didn't bother to correct them.

 

 

[phuketsub]

On 25/6/2560 at 1:02 PM, whatever_works said:

For the Op

I enjoyed  Bannork's response the most, and his second response is a good clip as well.

But I will never forget  Stu Jay Raj's  Dennis the menace clip, its the best. After much searching I found it referenced in an earlier post in this forum. The best part of the video starts at 9:00 minutes but you might enjoy the entire video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV1F8ZE_AyA

And i realize you want / need to have immediate command of this tone to be understood, but keep in mind that your command of the language will continue to evolve over time. There are muscles that need to be built up over time and as you do your ear will become more attuned to nuances. Your accent will not become fixed or locked so long as you continue to take an interest in it and are willing to put some work into it.  Reading aloud even simple material , even repetitively is good exercise for this if you can have endure the rote'nes .

Thanks for the link....interesting.

[Chou Anou]

delete

Edited June 30, 2017 by Chou Anou

[Chou Anou]

On 6/24/2017 at 9:18 AM, bangkokbanjo said:

Not worth giving up on speaking. You will be understood, just as you understand poor englush grammar. Plenty of youtube videos to guide you.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I agree that he shouldn't give up on speaking Thai, but I don't agree that he will necessarily "be understood" if he's not getting the high tone right.  When I was first learning Thai some 17 years ago, it was my experience that Thai ears are most unforgiving to two tones coming out of foreigners' mouths: high, and low.  That is to say, for Thais not used to hearing foreigners butcher the language, the high and low tones seem to be ones you've really got to nail, or they will very likely not understand you at all.

 

Example: I remember, more than once, trying to buy water in my early days of speaking Thai, and not being able to get the two tones (high, followed by low) right, and not being understood.  One time, I remember very clearly, I was standing in front of a vendor who sold beverages out of an ice chest.  I POINTED TO A BOTTLE OF WATER, while simultaneously saying what I thought was น้ำเปล่า, but I was obviously not getting either tone right.  The woman looked at me like I was from Mars, and clearly had no idea that I wanted water.  Finally, as I kept trying to get the tones right (I know I was getting the vowels and consonants right) and was getting more and more frustrated, I picked up the bottle and waved it at her, and she goes, โอ้! น้ำเปล่า!  Like I said, they're unforgiving with those two tones.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Chou Anou

[EricTh]

25 minutes ago, Chou Anou said:

 When I was first learning Thai some 17 years ago, it was my experience that Thai ears are most unforgivin

 

17 years is a long time to learn Thai. I guess you should be a master of tones by now.

[Chou Anou]

2 hours ago, EricTh said:

 

17 years is a long time to learn Thai. I guess you should be a master of tones by now.

Haha, well, out of everything, I'd say tones are actually still my weak point.  But I do have a pretty decent handle on grammar, a good-sized vocabulary, fluidity, and at least I can always make myself understood now! 

[Chrisdoc]

I am self taught from books and Stu Jay Ray youtube clips. I believe it is true as he says that native Thai speakers don't even understand how tones work just like, as an English speaker, I never thought that English is tonal but it is as he describes I believe'rolling'. His explanation that the tones come from opening and closing the throat and also his clips where he maps the different 'gaw gai ' and 'sala' sounds were great revelations in my Thai learning. After watching them I have gone back and re-learned all my words with the proper tongue and throat positions . Is great stuff he does on YouTube and recommended him greatly.

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