Show some patriotism, UK minister tells broadcasters over Brexit

[nauseus]

42 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Let's clear up something

 

On the remain side, the forecast was overly negative as it turned out, in large part due to swift action by the BoE.

 

On the leave side, multiple lies were told. There is a distinct difference.

 

Right now, I sense no appetite for Brexit. Far too many other urgent matters to attend to. I suspect we may need to adopt building codes from other EU countries that are not so bent and twisted as we seem to have become.

 

 

Multiple porkies or assumptions cast out by both sides and as they roughly even each other, out I have discounted the porky factor!

 

 

 

 

[billd766]

5 hours ago, stevenl said:

The problem is that the country voted 'leave' without anybody knowing what that would entail, and the vote does not represent the will of the country.

 

If it did not represent the will of the country then why is the country heading for a Brexit.

 

If the vote had been to remain that that would have been the will of the country. In reality over 17 million people voted to leave and over 15 million voted to stay.

 

When I went to school over 17 million was always said to be larger than over 15 million so more people voted to leave than to stay.

 

At the time that vote DID represent the will of the country.

 

Of course you could have said that not everybody voted which is correct, BUT they had the opportunity to do so. IF they couldn't be bothered to vote, then tough. Blame themselves.

 

 

5 hours ago, stevenl said:

If the will of the country is 'no brexit' then why is it still going on?

 

Only you it appears seems to think it is the will of the country.

 

How many referendums do you want or will accept to get YOUR way? If you do, then don't be surprised if many people in the UK son't and won't accept what YOU want.

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Multiple porkies or assumptions cast out by both sides and as they roughly even each other, out I have discounted the porky factor!

 

 

 

 

There is a clear moral difference between outright lies and incorrect forecasts, even over egged forecasts. What out right lies were stated by the remain side?

[Grouse]

13 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

If it did not represent the will of the country then why is the country heading for a Brexit.

 

If the vote had been to remain that that would have been the will of the country. In reality over 17 million people voted to leave and over 15 million voted to stay.

 

When I went to school over 17 million was always said to be larger than over 15 million so more people voted to leave than to stay.

 

At the time that vote DID represent the will of the country.

 

Of course you could have said that not everybody voted which is correct, BUT they had the opportunity to do so. IF they couldn't be bothered to vote, then tough. Blame themselves.

 

 

 

Only you it appears seems to think it is the will of the country.

 

How many referendums do you want or will accept to get YOUR way? If you do, then don't be surprised if many people in the UK son't and won't accept what YOU want.

A year is a long time in politics

 

Check again and see what the position is now. I'll bet it's changed

 

A simple majority was a ridiculously low bar for such a major change particularly with the large numbers of poorly informed, dissatisfied people in the UK now

 

Nobody has been able to give me a clear benefit of Brexit to date.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Grouse

[rickudon]

The negative economic forecasts about Brexit before the referendum was what would happen AFTER we left, not the day after the referendum. WE are still currently a member of the EU and will be for at least another 18 months, so benefit from the lack of trade restrictions. The real shit will not hit the fan until after Brexit. The fact is, the rest of the world was stunned by the Brexit vote, just didn't make economic sense for the UK. Strange that only the UK thinks they will be better off (well 52% of them). 

 

True, SOME people will benefit from Brexit -a few more may get jobs, those whose business is purely within the UK will suffer less competition. However, any company that exports to the EU will suffer, the banking sector will suffer. And if our GDP does contract by say 10%, the effects would make the recession of 2008 seem like peanuts.

 

I'm sorry to say but Brexit will be a disaster. The mere fact that one year later the government still has no idea how to go about it is a pretty good indicator that the negotiators can find nothing worthwhile to ask.

 

Uk after Brexit will become a middle income world economy, with wage stagnation, inflation and falling living standards. That is if the UK still exists - personally i think Northern Ireland and Scotland will quickly opt out.

 

A call for Patriotism is just an excuse to not tackle the issue

Edited June 25, 2017 by rickudon

[nauseus]

57 minutes ago, Grouse said:

There is a clear moral difference between outright lies and incorrect forecasts, even over egged forecasts. What out right lies were stated by the remain side?

+ Tusk, said western political civilization would be destroyed if the UK voted ‘Leave’.

 

+ Cameron implied that World War 3 would be upon us if Brexit occurred. WW3 might well happen but not due to Brexit!! 

 

+ Osborne predicted tax rises and spending cuts would be implemented and that household incomes would drop by 4000 pounds. 

 

+ Several prominent remainers said that there would be an immediate Brexit recession - no so. 

 

+ “A dangerous fantasy” is how Clegg described Farage’s claim of EU plans to create an army but barely 3 months after the referendum, Juncker proposed this very thing. 

 

+ We were told companies would leave the UK in their droves, especially in the car industry. Which companies?

 

+ David Cameron said he wouldn’t resign as Prime Minister if he lost the Referendum vote. He also tried to claim the UK could manage its immigration policy while inside the EU. Wrong - we cannot control EU immigration while being a member.

+ Universities wanted the UK to remain in the EU because leaving would result in Horizon 2020 funding disappearing. Philip Hammond, has agreed to keep this funding in place. 

 

+ Alan Johnston said “Two thirds of British jobs in manufacturing are dependent on demand from Europe” - wrong and grossly OTT.
 

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, rickudon said:

The negative economic forecasts about Brexit before the referendum was what would happen AFTER we left, not the day after the referendum. WE are still currently a member of the EU and will be for at least another 18 months, so benefit from the lack of trade restrictions. The real shit will not hit the fan until after Brexit. The fact is, the rest of the world was stunned by the Brexit vote, just didn't make economic sense for the UK. Strange that only the UK thinks they will be better off (well 52% of them). 

 

True, SOME people will benefit from Brexit -a few more may get jobs, those whose business is purely within the UK will suffer less competition. However, any company that exports to the EU will suffer, the banking sector will suffer. And if our GDP does contract by say 10%, the effects would make the recession of 2008 seem like peanuts.

 

I'm sorry to say but Brexit will be a disaster. The mere fact that one year later the government still has no idea how to go about it is a pretty good indicator that the negotiators can find nothing worthwhile to ask.

 

Uk after Brexit will become a middle income world economy, with wage stagnation, inflation and falling living standards. That is if the UK still exists - personally i think Northern Ireland and Scotland will quickly opt out.

 

A call for Patriotism is just an excuse to not tackle the issue

 

The negative economic forecasts about Brexit before the referendum was what would happen AFTER we left, not the day after the referendum.

 

Oh gawd! Here we go again! No they weren't.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/05/chief-economist-of-bank-of-england-admits-errors

[dunroaming]

I would argue that questioning what is clearly a badly run brexit campaign is as patriotic as you can get.  Andrea Leadsom shouldn't  put herself forward for questions if she can't handle criticism.  Hopefully her days are numbered now

[Nigel Garvie]

2 hours ago, rickudon said:

The negative economic forecasts about Brexit before the referendum was what would happen AFTER we left, not the day after the referendum. WE are still currently a member of the EU and will be for at least another 18 months, so benefit from the lack of trade restrictions. The real shit will not hit the fan until after Brexit. The fact is, the rest of the world was stunned by the Brexit vote, just didn't make economic sense for the UK. Strange that only the UK thinks they will be better off (well 52% of them). 

 

True, SOME people will benefit from Brexit -a few more may get jobs, those whose business is purely within the UK will suffer less competition. However, any company that exports to the EU will suffer, the banking sector will suffer. And if our GDP does contract by say 10%, the effects would make the recession of 2008 seem like peanuts.

 

I'm sorry to say but Brexit will be a disaster. The mere fact that one year later the government still has no idea how to go about it is a pretty good indicator that the negotiators can find nothing worthwhile to ask.

 

Uk after Brexit will become a middle income world economy, with wage stagnation, inflation and falling living standards. That is if the UK still exists - personally i think Northern Ireland and Scotland will quickly opt out.

 

A call for Patriotism is just an excuse to not tackle the issue

This of course is completely true, fair,  and accurate, the real effect of Brexit has not yet been felt, how could it be, we have not left yet. As someone who (When not in Thailand) runs a small business which exports to places including the EU, the additional paperwork burden alone is horrible to anticipate, let alone the potential loss of custom. My strongest regret about Brexit is that the selfish old baby boomers have voted away their children's futures, so they can relive their sad Imperial fantasies, before passing away leaving behind a pathetically reduced UK for the next generations.

However fear not our superb BREXIT NEGOTIATING TEAM as shown in the picture will ensure that we can have our cake and eat it.

 

Edited June 25, 2017 by Nigel Garvie
correction

[Yann55]

9 hours ago, IMA_FARANG said:

Isn't there a saying that "patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels".

Maybe  that is because Patriotism is an easy thing to appeal to when you actually know that your action is not really in the best interests of you and the real long term good of your country.

Adolf Hitler  appealed to German patriotism, and at the time that was the answer to everything for Germany.

Learn the bitter  lessons of History, or be condemned to repeat them.

That also is a saying to think about.

 

 

 

I couldn't agree more. Patriotism is NEVER the solution and ALWAYS a problem.

 

Patriotism is the secular version of religious fundamentalism.

 

If only we were taught in school that countries are just a by-product of history, an interesting cultural item that should not be given too much importance, that being born here or there is irrelevant, that diversity is an asset and not a problem, that our neighbors are not the enemy, that whatever problems we have are the result of our own mistakes and that we should look into that before accusing foreigners ...

 

... and then I wake up, I see the faces of Trump-and-cronies, Geert Wilders, Marine Le Pen, Norbert Hofer, Mattero Salvini, Nigel Farage, Tayyip Erdogan ... and I realise that, as usual in the history of humanity, our future is behind us

[Basil B]

9 hours ago, Credo said:

I think there is a difference between patriotism and nationalism.   A bit of patriotism isn't necessarily a bad thing.   

Covering up for incompetence is...

 

I want to see impartial news reporting, not what government ministers tell them what to cover and what not too... 

[stevenl]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

If it did not represent the will of the country then why is the country heading for a Brexit.

 

If the vote had been to remain that that would have been the will of the country. In reality over 17 million people voted to leave and over 15 million voted to stay.

 

When I went to school over 17 million was always said to be larger than over 15 million so more people voted to leave than to stay.

 

At the time that vote DID represent the will of the country.

 

Of course you could have said that not everybody voted which is correct, BUT they had the opportunity to do so. IF they couldn't be bothered to vote, then tough. Blame themselves.

 

 

 

Only you it appears seems to think it is the will of the country.

 

How many referendums do you want or will accept to get YOUR way? If you do, then don't be surprised if many people in the UK son't and won't accept what YOU want.

Exactly my point.

 

The majority at one point said leave, but despite it becoming clearer and clearer that the way this is implemented is not what the majority wants, nothing changes and the road continues.

 

This just does not make any sense.

 

Oh, and I have no beef in this, just observing a process that makes no sense at all.

Edited June 25, 2017 by stevenl

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Yann55 said:

 

I couldn't agree more. Patriotism is NEVER the solution and ALWAYS a problem.

 

Patriotism is the secular version of religious fundamentalism.

 

If only we were taught in school that countries are just a by-product of history, an interesting cultural item that should not be given too much importance, that being born here or there is irrelevant, that diversity is an asset and not a problem, that our neighbors are not the enemy, that whatever problems we have are the result of our own mistakes and that we should look into that before accusing foreigners ...

 

... and then I wake up, I see the faces of Trump-and-cronies, Geert Wilders, Marine Le Pen, Norbert Hofer, Mattero Salvini, Nigel Farage, Tayyip Erdogan ... and I realise that, as usual in the history of humanity, our future is behind us

So our forefathers should have just rolled over and let the Germans in in 1940? What a ridiculous comparison.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

+ Tusk, said western political civilization would be destroyed if the UK voted ‘Leave’.

 

+ Cameron implied that World War 3 would be upon us if Brexit occurred. WW3 might well happen but not due to Brexit!! 

 

+ Osborne predicted tax rises and spending cuts would be implemented and that household incomes would drop by 4000 pounds. 

 

+ Several prominent remainers said that there would be an immediate Brexit recession - no so. 

 

+ “A dangerous fantasy” is how Clegg described Farage’s claim of EU plans to create an army but barely 3 months after the referendum, Juncker proposed this very thing. 

 

+ We were told companies would leave the UK in their droves, especially in the car industry. Which companies?

 

+ David Cameron said he wouldn’t resign as Prime Minister if he lost the Referendum vote. He also tried to claim the UK could manage its immigration policy while inside the EU. Wrong - we cannot control EU immigration while being a member.

+ Universities wanted the UK to remain in the EU because leaving would result in Horizon 2020 funding disappearing. Philip Hammond, has agreed to keep this funding in place. 

 

+ Alan Johnston said “Two thirds of British jobs in manufacturing are dependent on demand from Europe” - wrong and grossly OTT.
 

Ok, good.

 

Any sources?

 

I will address all those that are not forecasts and were lies

 

Here we go...

 

...

 

 

...

[Thongkorn]

Patriotism,  Dont make me laugh, You should live in the Midlands of the UK< Asian women and men born in the Country, 30/40 year olds, cannot speak English < no intentions of working, all they do is leech ,  As one cricket commentator said, And he was Australian, When India and Pakistan come to play cricket in England who do the Local Asian community support, And its not England, But then again its Ironic the elected people tell us to be patriotic , When you cannot fly the English flag or celebrate St george's day or say Christmas becasue it upsets the imports, kettle calling pan i think.

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Yann55 said:

 

I couldn't agree more. Patriotism is NEVER the solution and ALWAYS a problem.

 

Patriotism is the secular version of religious fundamentalism.

 

If only we were taught in school that countries are just a by-product of history, an interesting cultural item that should not be given too much importance, that being born here or there is irrelevant, that diversity is an asset and not a problem, that our neighbors are not the enemy, that whatever problems we have are the result of our own mistakes and that we should look into that before accusing foreigners ...

 

... and then I wake up, I see the faces of Trump-and-cronies, Geert Wilders, Marine Le Pen, Norbert Hofer, Mattero Salvini, Nigel Farage, Tayyip Erdogan ... and I realise that, as usual in the history of humanity, our future is behind us

 

that diversity is an asset and not a problem,

 

It's an asset when the diverse elements do their best to integrate. When they don't, it's a problem. How big-a-problem depends on how little they try to integrate.

[Grouse]

57 minutes ago, nauseus said:

So our forefathers should have just rolled over and let the Germans in in 1940? What a ridiculous comparison.

Oh no! Not again!

 

Achtung Spitfire! 

 

 

[dunroaming]

59 minutes ago, Thongkorn said:

Patriotism,  Dont make me laugh, You should live in the Midlands of the UK< Asian women and men born in the Country, 30/40 year olds, cannot speak English < no intentions of working, all they do is leech ,  As one cricket commentator said, And he was Australian, When India and Pakistan come to play cricket in England who do the Local Asian community support, And its not England, But then again its Ironic the elected people tell us to be patriotic , When you cannot fly the English flag or celebrate St george's day or say Christmas becasue it upsets the imports, kettle calling pan i think.

You live in Birmingham then?  Sorry I thought you lived in Thailand.  Well I am amazed that Asian men and women that were born in the country cannot speak English considering they went to school there. You see the problem with a bigoted view is that it never relies on facts, just what the other blokes say in the pub.

[Enoon]

 

Never mind the question of stay or leave.  Has nobody noticed?

 

Here is a Government telling the media that it should not print/broadcast that which questions its actions.  For to do so would be "ill intentioned".

 

Sound familiar?

 

Edited June 25, 2017 by Enoon

[billd766]

4 hours ago, stevenl said:

Exactly my point.

 

The majority at one point said leave, but despite it becoming clearer and clearer that the way this is implemented is not what the majority wants, nothing changes and the road continues.

 

This just does not make any sense.

 

Oh, and I have no beef in this, just observing a process that makes no sense at all.

 

So you think that another referendum might change the result and stop the UK leaving the EU?

 

If that results i a remain vote do you think there should be another referendum organised by the Brexit group, or another, or another?

 

I voted to leave as did over 17 million others. I accepted the result in exactly the same way that I would have done should it have been a result to stay.

 

I would NOT have been screaming, crying, moaning and whining.

 

It is called democracy. A referendum was taken. A result was announced that the UK would leave the EU. What is needed now is for everybody to support the result and get behind TM to get the best deal possible.

 

I call it patriotism and I did notice that the BBC during the run up to the election were biased in favour of remaining. I used to like the BBC many years ago for it truth in reporting the news as it came in without putting their own bias on it. Sadly that does not happen any more.

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

 

So you think that another referendum might change the result and stop the UK leaving the EU?

 

If that results i a remain vote do you think there should be another referendum organised by the Brexit group, or another, or another?

 

I voted to leave as did over 17 million others. I accepted the result in exactly the same way that I would have done should it have been a result to stay.

 

I would NOT have been screaming, crying, moaning and whining.

 

It is called democracy. A referendum was taken. A result was announced that the UK would leave the EU. What is needed now is for everybody to support the result and get behind TM to get the best deal possible.

 

I call it patriotism and I did notice that the BBC during the run up to the election were biased in favour of remaining. I used to like the BBC many years ago for it truth in reporting the news as it came in without putting their own bias on it. Sadly that does not happen any more.

It's funny. When Nigel Farage explicitly said that a 52-48 percent defeat of Brexit wouldn't mean the end of trying for it, I didn't read about any Brexiters criticizing him. But I guess that's because Farage really wasn't that prominent of a figure in the movement.

[Khun Han]

52 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

It's funny. When Nigel Farage explicitly said that a 52-48 percent defeat of Brexit wouldn't mean the end of trying for it, I didn't read about any Brexiters criticizing him. But I guess that's because Farage really wasn't that prominent of a figure in the movement.

So Nigel Farage making his comment about a second referendum, which received little support, makes it ok for most of the remain movement to demand one, does it?

[ilostmypassword]

15 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

So Nigel Farage making his comment about a second referendum, which received little support, makes it ok for most of the remain movement to demand one, does it?

The point isn't' that it received little support. The point is that the indignation on the part of Brexiters now on the subject of a second referendum was nowhere to be seen or heard back when.

[Khun Han]

Just now, ilostmypassword said:

The point isn't' that it received little support. The point is that the indignation on the part of Brexiters now on the subject of a second referendum was nowhere to be seen or heard back when.

 

Because what Farage said wasn't considered important. It was his personal opinion. As opposed to the relentless campaign by remainers for a second referendum, and their endless citing of one individual campaigner's statement as a negation of any criticism of their campaign.

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, Khun Han said:

 

Because what Farage said wasn't considered important. It was his personal opinion. As opposed to the relentless campaign by remainers for a second referendum, and their endless citing of one individual campaigner's statement as a negation of any criticism of their campaign.

Sure. What Nigel Farage said during the Brexit campaign wasn't considered important? Maybe you're confusing him with some other Nigel Farage? Because what the Nigel Farage I'm referring to said during the Brexit campaign definitely was considered important. Unless all the new coverage he got was because he was considered unimportant? Sounds believable.

[Khun Han]

4 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Sure. What Nigel Farage said during the Brexit campaign wasn't considered important? Maybe you're confusing him with some other Nigel Farage? Because what the Nigel Farage I'm referring to said during the Brexit campaign definitely was considered important. Unless all the new coverage he got was because he was considered unimportant? Sounds believable.

 

What Farage said about a second referendum had no traction, and was not an opinion expressed or held by the vast majority of brexit supporters, and you know it

[Richard W]

9 hours ago, rickudon said:

The fact is, the rest of the world was stunned by the Brexit vote, just didn't make economic sense for the UK. Strange that only the UK thinks they will be better off (well 52% of them).

So how few people voted for exit expecting it to make them worse off?  Man does not live by bread alone.

[ilostmypassword]

18 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

What Farage said about a second referendum had no traction, and was not an opinion expressed or held by the vast majority of brexit supporters, and you know it

I know nothing of the sort. And it seems a tendentious assertion on your part. It seems far more likely that it drew little comment from Brexit supporters because they found it unobjectionable. I won't finish that sentence with "and you know it" because I don't pretend to read your mind. But if you don't know it, you should.

[nauseus]

25 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

I know nothing of the sort. And it seems a tendentious assertion on your part. It seems far more likely that it drew little comment from Brexit supporters because they found it unobjectionable. I won't finish that sentence with "and you know it" because I don't pretend to read your mind. But if you don't know it, you should.

But you do assume that Farage's view about a stay in result would be shared by other leavers - and you are wrong - again! 

Edited June 25, 2017 by nauseus

[ilostmypassword]

19 minutes ago, nauseus said:

But you do assume that Farage's view about a stay in result would be shared by other leavers - and you are wrong - again! 

All we know is that Farage was one of the leaders (the leader?) of the Brexit movement. When he voiced that opinion, as far as I can find, no objections were raised. The risible reason raised by one person was that his comment wasn't considered important.  You heard the one about the dog that didn't bark in the night.  That supporters who were so outspoken about so many aspects of Brexit said nothing about Farage's comment, is significant.