Saddam Is Dead

[rainman]

Speaks volumes of what sort of murder and mayhem the lad was responsible for...

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html

That website says: Approaching two million, including between 150,000 and 340,000 Iraqis and between 450,000 and 730,000 Iranians killed during the Iran-Iraq War.

So he gets the death penalty for 450,000 to 730,000 Iranians killed. And lets not forget, the CIA supported Iraq in the Iran-Iraq war. What does Bush get for 130,000 Iraqis killed in the first year of the Iraq war, between 2003 and 2004 only? 50% of oil profits?

That same website you're mentioning also says A follow-up survey published in 'The Lancet' in October 2006 estimates that there have been 654,965 excess deaths in Iraq as a consequence of the invasion, with 601,027 of these attributable to violence. If the website you're mentioning is correct, that means that the US invasion killed twice as many Iraqis in 3 years (~650,000) as Saddam did in 25 years (~150,000-340,000).

So are we judging people by "good or bad" or are we judging people by how many deaths they've caused? Because if we're judging people by how many deaths they caused, we may need to get our execution priorities straightened out.

Edited January 1, 2007 by rainman

[chuckd]

I see by some of the comments that many on this site know little about the Middle East in general.

I am no expert, but I can tell you that "civilisation" did not make any steps further backward today than any other day...it's just that you have heard about this execution but not about the hundreds of others performed in the region throughout any given year.

Try being in Riyadh city centre on any Friday when they perform the PUBLIC executions and other punishments such as cutting off the hand of a thief etc. If you happen to be anywhere near "chop-chop square" as we used to call it, you would likley be rounded up by the local constabulary and taken to be a western eye-witness; pushed to the front of the crowd so you get to see it all in horrific and ghoulish detail.

Nothing changed today...just another criminal facing his sentence. Life goes on.

Our western perspectives have no relevance in the Arab lands, and it is a mistake to think they should have.

Why don't we all pray to Allah? Simple, we have different views and beliefs.

Are our views right? How the hel_l would anyone really know?

WE think that our beliefs and methods are correct, but so do the Arab cultures...

Trying to impose the views and beliefs of one culture on another is exactly what started this...and you can see it that way no matter what side of the fence you sit.

We tried to make the others believe in our ways, our methods, and our laws, but they refused! How dare they? They need to be taught a lesson!

Now...tell me from the above, which side I am quoting...whose reasoning is this? Impossible to tell because they are the SAME thought processes, the same questions and answers, no matter what side you are on in such a conflict.

Saddam has died for some of his crimes - maybe our concept of punishment by keeping him alive would have been better - but only in our view...we wouldn't need to feel some sort of misplaced guilt at his death...

Many otherwise "civilised" nations impose the death penalty; the Arab lands are no less civilised than those in the west who impose this penalty.

Civilisation as such has neither taken a step backward, nor in fact a step forward, it has simply continued as it does, it's sluggish progress.

I drug this up from Page 3 of this thread as it is the first one I saw that made any sense. I, too, live in Riyadh and this has had minimal effect on the Middle East, other than the few drum beats that he was done in on a bad day...the first day of the Hadj holidays. That issue will die down in a day or two as well if the media allows it. Otherwise it will go on as long as the media can get some mileage out of it.

Many of you need to take heed of that old, worn saying....."Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

[britmaveric]

Speaks volumes of what sort of murder and mayhem the lad was responsible for...

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html

That website says: Approaching two million, including between 150,000 and 340,000 Iraqis and between 450,000 and 730,000 Iranians killed during the Iran-Iraq War.

So he gets the death penalty for 450,000 to 730,000 Iranians killed. And lets not forget, the CIA supported Iraq in the Iran-Iraq war. What does Bush get for 130,000 Iraqis killed in the first year of the Iraq war, between 2003 and 2004 only? 50% of oil profits?

A medal!!!

[Boon Mee]

Here’s what passes for “humor” at the Huffington Post, where hatred of George Bush has driven them completely off their rockers: WELL HUNG! Saddam Hung To Prove Bush is BETTER Hung... (Than His Dad).

(Photo of well-hung leader by www.wacotrib.com)

Edited January 1, 2007 by Boon Mee

[rainman]

A medal!!!

Seriously. The US invasion killed 130,000 Iraqis in the first year. Imagine if Bush keeps his "war machine" going for 25 years, like Saddam did. We'd be past 3 million deaths. And the death tolls are not getting smaller, they're increasing every month. We're approaching Hitler here. Maybe that's why US presidents can't be re-elected more than twice.

[Boon Mee]

Shake a Tree and You Can See How Many Nuts Fall Out

Remaking the agnostic Saddam as a martyr, a citizen of a non-democracy decries his execution:

This is something which can’t b accepted by the world. It’s against the democracy. It’s so brutal, coz bush & his dogs choose this day for the execution. This is an action is not against Saddam but against the entire Muslims, this will divide the world again.

Sanju, Dubai, UAE

For the record, the Iraqis tried and executed Saddam Hussein, not the US, and not an “International Court.” For the millionth time, sparky: a muslim can be guilty of a crime without you hanging in around the neck of every Muslim in the world.

[Boon Mee]

Hot of the press. Get them while you can. The new Saddam T-shirt is here. Its a bit tight round the neck but it hangs well.

One of these?

[NovaBlue05]

Clearly, the new government has absolutely no control or power. What i'm trying to say is that at least Saddam kept some sort of control over the country and its people. I personally know people who have been to Baghdad under Saddam's rule and they have never seen any violence or attacks how they're happening now. Its all out of control now.

You are taking this way too hard. Don't worry, as we post, Iran is working real hard to place a new leader in there who will get the children to behave.

[rainman]

You are taking this way too hard.

You're right, but if everyone would have taken it a little harder, Iraq wouldn't be in such a mess now. Someone should have straightened out the problems in his own country before taking on the world.

[kayo]

A medal!!!

Seriously. The US invasion killed 130,000 Iraqis in the first year. Imagine if Bush keeps his "war machine" going for 25 years, like Saddam did. We'd be past 3 million deaths. And the death tolls are not getting smaller, they're increasing every month. We're approaching Hitler here. Maybe that's why US presidents can't be re-elected more than twice.

There was a thing on tv the other day, quoting someone as saying that they only "count" the deaths witnessed by the US/nato. So if there are insurgents killing civilian they don't include them, for example.

I wonder how many really have died so far.

[rainman]

For the record, the Iraqis tried and executed Saddam Hussein, not the US, and not an “International Court.” For the millionth time, sparky: a muslim can be guilty of a crime without you hanging in around the neck of every Muslim in the world.

The Iraqis or the Kurds? The prosecutor and the judges were all Kurdish. And Kurds are only a small population of Iraqis. Most of the Shiites were not friends with Saddam either, but neither are they to Americans (does Muqtada al-Sadr ring a bell?). Saddam was a Sunni, the 2nd largest group in Iraq. I have no doubt that he would have been found guilty in an international court as well, but that trial was far from fair.

[aaaaaa]

Boon Mee,

for the record too:

those who ever bothers to watch Thai TV, might have noticed some reports related to aftermath of "Saddam's" "execution" ! I think world media has such reports too: that quite a lot of Iraqi people have come to his grave and just to the streets to express what they REALY feel about his "execution".

Hanging of Saddam upsets Sunnis in Iraq

By LAUREN FRAYER, Associated Press Writer

10 minutes ago

The Sunnis were not only angered by Saddam's hurried execution, just four days after an appeals court upheld his conviction and sentence, but were increasingly incensed by the unruly and undignified manner in which the hanging was carried out.

Saddam was put to death on the eve of the Shiite celebration of the Eid al-Ahda, the major Muslim festival marking the end of the hajj pilgrimage to Mecca and a remembrance Abraham's willingness to sacrifice of his son, now symbolized by the slaughtering of sheep.

The first judge in the so-called Dujail trial, Rizgar Mohammed Amin, said Saddam's execution in the during the eid was illegal according to Iraqi law. Sunni Muslim festivities marking the holiday began on the same day that Saddam was hanged.

In northern Baghdad, hundreds of Sunnis conducted a demonstration to mourn Saddam in a predominantly Sunni neighborhood.

In Dor, 77 miles north of Baghdad, hundreds more took to the streets to inaugurate a giant mosaic of Saddam. Children carried toy guns and men fired into the air.

"God bless you, and I thank you for honoring Saddam, the martyr," two witnesses recalled Raghad Saddam Hussein as telling the protesters, who included a junior Cabinet minister, on her arrival. She left a minute later.

Iraq orders closure of TV station office

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The Iraqi government Monday ordered the closure of the Baghdad office of a Dubai-based television station whose newscaster wore black mourning clothes while reporting on the hanging of Hussein.

somehow reminds of Sep 19 and after here in LOS when all TV stations were under military control...

well, so much for claimed by you "the Iraqis tried and executed Saddam Hussein", huh?

I mean - no need to BS and trumpet something which is obviously not true: that all Iraqis are overjoyed by his "execution" ! somehow internatinal media doesn't show such overjoyed crowds - why I wonder?

at least I haven't seen any neither on net or on TV.

rather something else: a years after Saddam's falldown and such a pompous pulling down of his statue on that square and finally after his execution - people inagurate a GIANT MOSAIC dedicated to him! and that is while being under full US' & Co control!

so, what has been achieved, huh? that now he's made a "martyr" ?

what a splendid accomplishment!

Edited January 1, 2007 by aaaaaa

[britmaveric]

Well rainman - most killings are muslim on muslim I'm afraid. (snatch/grab/murder or usual ied/suicide bombers) Lets be honest if yanks left, it wouldn't make much difference and probably be much worse.

[aaaaaa]

right - better they stay on ! till very victory - "we shall prevail !"

it has been analyzed and discussed at length elsewhere already that exactly same logic has been used by yanks to make oh such a hard decision - to leave Vietnam or not. "bloodshed" was the main term used as an excuse as I remember. finally they've left anyway. and only decades later started to express aloud the alternative possibility - that perhaps it won't have been such a bloodshed. and the fact that Vietnam has managed on itws own after their leave, and even now does quite well (last APEC was there recently, right?) - rejects those speculations. in facts - nowdays people rather mourn all those american youngsters who's died (not to mentione how many vietnamese!) because of the decision (who was that US president that time? i forgot) made on the same logic of "very likely bloodshed": it wouldn't make much difference and probably be much worse

[britmaveric]

Unfortunately lot of the radical muslims are unhinged, don't think that can be said about NVA!!!

[Boon Mee]

The Ethics of Saddam’s Hanging :: UCLA law professor Steve Bainbridge explores the morality of the execution based on Catholic teachings and reasoning with universal implications, rather than on mere vengeance. Makes a whole lotta sense to this poster...

[aaaaaa]

Unfortunately lot of the radical muslims are unhinged, don't think that can be said about NVA!!!

well, we can only wait and see what will be said when (and IF) they finally leave Iraq, right? I mean, of course said by themselves first of all - as those analysis of those decisions about Nam.

hopefully we live long enough to hear that

Boon Mee - lucky you! I mean that you are not in there, in Iraq among those people right now . coz what and why makes a lot of sense to you while comfortably sitting elsewhere, migh get you in trouble in there!

Edited January 1, 2007 by aaaaaa

[endure]

The Ethics of Saddam’s Hanging :: UCLA law professor Steve Bainbridge explores the morality of the execution based on Catholic teachings and reasoning with universal implications, rather than on mere vengeance. Makes a whole lotta sense to this poster...

Morality is like fingerprints - everyone has a set and they're all different. Why should Catholic teachings have any bearing on the execution of a Muslim?

[Jeff1]

Speaks volumes of what sort of murder and mayhem the lad was responsible for...

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html

Thats just the tip my friend. Stories of throwing acid in the faces of women and children because the husband / father was suspect. ( just one small example ) Torture and a seeming endless list of crimes and murder.

I can't belive the crap im reading here. Im thinking I am in the wrong forum group.

" loved by millions ( of this im sure ) put him back in power ", yeah, we should have just let him go.

He's dead...Good!

[terry57]

You are taking this way too hard.

You're right, but if everyone would have taken it a little harder, Iraq wouldn't be in such a mess now. Someone should have straightened out the problems in his own country before taking on the world.

thats a fair comment,

the difference is that bush dont kill his own people in his own country.

he sends them overseas to die in some useless war.

[terry57]

Speaks volumes of what sort of murder and mayhem the lad was responsible for...

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html

Thats just the tip my friend. Stories of throwing acid in the faces of women and children because the husband / father was suspect. ( just one small example ) Torture and a seeming endless list of crimes and murder.

I can't belive the crap im reading here. Im thinking I am in the wrong forum group.

" loved by millions ( of this im sure ) put him back in power ", yeah, we should have just let him go.

He's dead...Good!

you know mate,

that is the answer isnt it, " WE SHOULD OF JUST LET HIM GO"

at the end of the day the iraq'y people would of sorted out there own problems and all the money bush has spent on this disaster of a war could of gone to fixing the problems in his own country.

he just did not learn anything from vietnam did he.?

trouble is,

he will retire from politics with a huge pension and there will be a trail of carnage left behind, american and iraq'y from his time in power.

well done george.

[farang prince]

The Ethics of Saddam’s Hanging :: UCLA law professor Steve Bainbridge explores the morality of the execution based on Catholic teachings and reasoning with universal implications, rather than on mere vengeance. Makes a whole lotta sense to this poster...

Morality is like fingerprints - everyone has a set and they're all different. Why should Catholic teachings have any bearing on the execution of a Muslim?

You are dead on Endure. Even though I was raised as a Catholic, I find the church's morality to be very lacking in view of the huge number of molestation cases that they attempted to sweep under the rug for decades. I"d like for them to take care of their own house before they extend their Catholic teachings and reasoning to the rest of the world.

[farang prince]

You are taking this way too hard.

You're right, but if everyone would have taken it a little harder, Iraq wouldn't be in such a mess now. Someone should have straightened out the problems in his own country before taking on the world.

Rainman, I appreciate your passion for the Iraqi cause. Perhaps you would like to volunteer to go to Iraq and help those poor people. There are a number of NGO's in Iraq that would love to have you help them out. Or is it easier to sit in the safe confines of your home and just type passionate words on an internet site?

You know Rainman, I love people who sit on the sidelines and create great passion for a cause. Count yourself among millions. Can you walk the walk, or just talk the talk?

Oh, and by the way, I've walked the walk for 40 years of my life, in case you were wondering.

[Jeff1]

Speaks volumes of what sort of murder and mayhem the lad was responsible for...

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html

Thats just the tip my friend. Stories of throwing acid in the faces of women and children because the husband / father was suspect. ( just one small example ) Torture and a seeming endless list of crimes and murder.

I can't belive the crap im reading here. Im thinking I am in the wrong forum group.

" loved by millions ( of this im sure ) put him back in power ", yeah, we should have just let him go.

He's dead...Good!

you know mate,

that is the answer isnt it, " WE SHOULD OF JUST LET HIM GO"

at the end of the day the iraq'y people would of sorted out there own problems and all the money bush has spent on this disaster of a war could of gone to fixing the problems in his own country.

he just did not learn anything from vietnam did he.?

trouble is,

he will retire from politics with a huge pension and there will be a trail of carnage left behind, american and iraq'y from his time in power.

well done george.

You know, your posts do make me laugh.

[Sing_Sling]

You are taking this way too hard.

You're right, but if everyone would have taken it a little harder, Iraq wouldn't be in such a mess now. Someone should have straightened out the problems in his own country before taking on the world.

Rainman, I appreciate your passion for the Iraqi cause. Perhaps you would like to volunteer to go to Iraq and help those poor people. There are a number of NGO's in Iraq that would love to have you help them out. Or is it easier to sit in the safe confines of your home and just type passionate words on an internet site?

You know Rainman, I love people who sit on the sidelines and create great passion for a cause. Count yourself among millions. Can you walk the walk, or just talk the talk?

Oh, and by the way, I've walked the walk for 40 years of my life, in case you were wondering.

FP, while it is co0mmendable that you have 'walked the walk' for 40 years - kudos to you - you have not walked the walk in every situation imaginable, so this in no way gives you the moral highground when it comes to pontification on any and every subject. Were you in the peace corps for 40 years? The army? NGOs?

Rainman has a valid a point as any other, and just because he writes it from the comfort of his living room doesn't make it any less valid.

That Sadaam was loved by millions can't be disputed - first there are his own people who had never had it so good under his reign, then there were the millions who saw and see him as standing up to the Anglo aggressors, Sadaam being the defendor of the Arabs.

How can you or anyone else dispute that, or are you just in your comfort zone pontificating from the high horse you sit on? If you don't believe that he was seen as a hero by many then you do not know the first thing about Arabs, the Middle East or even Islam.

[farang prince]

You are taking this way too hard.

You're right, but if everyone would have taken it a little harder, Iraq wouldn't be in such a mess now. Someone should have straightened out the problems in his own country before taking on the world.

Rainman, I appreciate your passion for the Iraqi cause. Perhaps you would like to volunteer to go to Iraq and help those poor people. There are a number of NGO's in Iraq that would love to have you help them out. Or is it easier to sit in the safe confines of your home and just type passionate words on an internet site?

You know Rainman, I love people who sit on the sidelines and create great passion for a cause. Count yourself among millions. Can you walk the walk, or just talk the talk?

Oh, and by the way, I've walked the walk for 40 years of my life, in case you were wondering.

FP, while it is co0mmendable that you have 'walked the walk' for 40 years - kudos to you - you have not walked the walk in every situation imaginable, so this in no way gives you the moral highground when it comes to pontification on any and every subject. Were you in the peace corps for 40 years? The army? NGOs?

Rainman has a valid a point as any other, and just because he writes it from the comfort of his living room doesn't make it any less valid.

That Sadaam was loved by millions can't be disputed - first there are his own people who had never had it so good under his reign, then there were the millions who saw and see him as standing up to the Anglo aggressors, Sadaam being the defendor of the Arabs.

How can you or anyone else dispute that, or are you just in your comfort zone pontificating from the high horse you sit on? If you don't believe that he was seen as a hero by many then you do not know the first thing about Arabs, the Middle East or even Islam.

I don't dispute for a minute that Sadaam was loved by millions. So was Hitler. And yes, I've walked the walk. I was in both the army in Vietnam and trained soldiers and cops over the past 40 years in some of the world's great shitholes, which includes Iraq. I'm not trying to pump up my volume...but i do get tired of all these people who talk a good game but don't have the 'nads to go out and do it themselves. If that offends your sensibilities, tough.

[Tolley]

Speaks volumes of what sort of murder and mayhem the lad was responsible for...

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html

Thats just the tip my friend. Stories of throwing acid in the faces of women and children because the husband / father was suspect. ( just one small example ) Torture and a seeming endless list of crimes and murder.

I can't belive the crap im reading here. Im thinking I am in the wrong forum group.

" loved by millions ( of this im sure ) put him back in power ", yeah, we should have just let him go.

He's dead...Good!

you know mate,

that is the answer isnt it, " WE SHOULD OF JUST LET HIM GO"

at the end of the day the iraq'y people would of sorted out there own problems and all the money bush has spent on this disaster of a war could of gone to fixing the problems in his own country.

he just did not learn anything from vietnam did he.?

trouble is,

he will retire from politics with a huge pension and there will be a trail of carnage left behind, american and iraq'y from his time in power.

well done george.

Classic post. Too true.

The biggest waste of public money in the history of the US.

If i was a US taxpayer i would be screaming blue murder.

A very nice little earner for the US military complex and their mates.....Haliburton et al

Imagine what could have done with the money wasted in Iraq in improving housing, education ,healthcare, etc in the US?

The US will be paying for this for years to come......

[NovaBlue05]

Classic post. Too true.

The biggest waste of public money in the history of the US.

If i was a US taxpayer i would be screaming blue murder.

A very nice little earner for the US military complex and their mates.....Haliburton et al

Imagine what could have done with the money wasted in Iraq in improving housing, education ,healthcare, etc in the US?

The US will be paying for this for years to come......

I suppose as a US taxpayer, the anger is tempered by the reality that the money would have not gone to good domestic use anyway. More likely it would have funded more/larger pork barrel projects, failed social programs, aid to hostile countries/regimes, etc....etc. Give Congress $100B in taxes and they waste at least $100B. Give them $500B and they waste at least $500B....and so on....and so on......

[Tolley]

Classic post. Too true.

The biggest waste of public money in the history of the US.

If i was a US taxpayer i would be screaming blue murder.

A very nice little earner for the US military complex and their mates.....Haliburton et al

Imagine what could have done with the money wasted in Iraq in improving housing, education ,healthcare, etc in the US?

The US will be paying for this for years to come......

I suppose as a US taxpayer, the anger is tempered by the reality that the money would have not gone to good domestic use anyway. More likely it would have funded more/larger pork barrel projects, failed social programs, aid to hostile countries/regimes, etc....etc. Give Congress $100B in taxes and they waste at least $100B. Give them $500B and they waste at least $500B....and so on....and so on......

I can understand your cynicism but i do believe that it would have been extremely difficult to have squandered all of that money.

At the very least it would have generated a mini boom domestically and some of the money would have filtered down to improve infrastructure and generate income for locals.

[Pakboong]

Was it really Saddam, though? Or one of his doubles who's in on the scam in exchange for agreed 'compensation'?

And was there really an execution? Or just the appearance of one to provoke the desired effect at this juncture in the Iraq quagmire?

The following will prove very thought-provoking for some of you:

Shaddam Shaddam's New Vaudeville Scam

Mrs Saddam Says Saddam Is Not Saddam

America Commits Suicide in Iraq: They should have left bearded whatshisname in the hole

So, where is the real Saddam?? The CIA knows. Where is Osama? (CIA codename: 'Tim Osman') The CIA knows. The real Saddam is, from those in-the-know, a CIA-trained assassin from the late 1950's, who was then later, of course, installed as puppet.

Don't be hoodwinked by the Zionists' global disinformation campaign.

(Note: Mr. Vialls gave his life to get this information out. His articles have been archived by generous benefactors who are trying to preserve his knowledge and continue to make it available online to raise awareness about what's really behind some of the news and events we see and hear.)

Main site: Vialls Investigations: Exposing Media Disinformation

Get informed...

I thought it funny that when he was pulled out of that hole in the Iraqi winter, November or December, the dates were ripe on the tree behind him and he looked like he had a 3 year growth of beard and had been in the hole 8 or 9 months. Dates that have not been picked, dry up and fall off the trees in late fall.