Gunfire erupts at Arkansas nightclub, 28 hurt

[impulse]

1 hour ago, Thakkar said:

My contention is that Americans have not been allowed to make that choice. The vast majority of Americans support stricter gun controls. Why aren't legislators doing their jobs? Instead, these same legislators are passing laws to suppress government financing of studies on the effects of gun ownership.

 

The conundrum here, of course is the way that our democracy has been stolen from us by big money and special interests just fuels the same argument that caused the founding fathers to enshrine the citizens' rights to protect ourselves from tyranny of a bad government into the Bill of Rights in the first place.

 

[impulse]

5 minutes ago, pegman said:

Yes, all about you and not those young kids at Sandy Hook. I'll give you people one thing your reputation is well and truly earned.

 

So, you'd favor a ban on alcohol because it kills 5-10 x as many people as guns every year?   Or just a ban on the things you don't particularly care for?

 

[pegman]

22 hours ago, impulse said:

 

You tell me...

 

With 7.48 registered violent gun deaths per 100,000 people, the rate in Thailand is actually twice as high as that of the US, which had 3.55 deaths per 100,000 people.
and 

This “fervent gun culture” has even been confirmed by Thailand’s Interior Ministry, which says that there are more than six million registered guns in the country, meaning that about one in 10 people in Thailand legally own a gun.

 

https://asiancorrespondent.com/2017/06/dangerous-thailand-authorities-denial-smoke-mirrors-exercise

 

Thailand has one gun per 10 people.  America has one gun per 1.3 people (270 million guns), yet Thailand's violent gun death rate is 2 x the USA's.

 

What proportion of those deaths are in the 3 contested provinces in the Deep South. My guess is a good many of them. It's a civil war down there. 

6,543 killed (2004–2015)

Edited July 3, 2017 by pegman
Added stat

[ddavidovsky]

24 minutes ago, pegman said:

There is so. Mandatory minimum of 5 years for gun possession. Get caught with a gun you are going away. Applies to everyone. This is like the leaky south border  false argument that nothing can be done to stop it. Do what Thailand just threatened to do and it stops overnight. Lay criminal charges against anyone that employs illegal immigrates with 2year mandatory minimum. I don't think the bosses at Tyson's would still be hiring any. No work means no reason for being in the country.

It's not rocket science it's all about lack of political will.

Would that it were so simple. You'll only end up with a situation where the hoodlums own all the guns. You are advocating a leap of faith, but unfortunately humans are cheats by nature.

The US is not Australia - society is far more lawless and segmented in the US. Lots of people illegally own guns at the moment. The threat of prosecution doesn't deter them, and never will - it may only add to the macho prestige of having one. And the prisons are already overcrowded.

[pegman]

21 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

So, you'd favor a ban on alcohol because it kills 5-10 x as many people as guns every year?   Or just a ban on the things you don't particularly care for?

 

It's criminal to drink and drive.

No I think there should be a ban on the things that kill nearly 35,000 people a year. Anyhow kill yourselves off if that's what you want. I'm just glad that after 150 years living in New England my family moved to the sane north when the domestic terrorists took over. Hopefully when the firearm induced race wars happen down there we can claim our Vermont property back.

[pegman]

11 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

Would that it were so simple. You'll only end up with a situation where the hoodlums own all the guns. You are advocating a leap of faith, but unfortunately humans are cheats by nature.

The US is not Australia - society is far more lawless and segmented in the US. Lots of people illegally own guns at the moment. The threat of prosecution doesn't deter them, and never will - it may only add to the macho prestige of having one. And the prisons are already overcrowded.

Don't underestimated the power of the USA government. They broke up school segregation against long odds. It may take a bit of time but the Bundy group in the NorthWest last year they got their guns taken away and are all being sentenced to hard time. 

[fakename]

This whole situation could have been avoided, if all customers were armed, especially in a bar, where there might be drunk people. All men, women and childern should be armed, the more guns , the more protection!

[Thakkar]

4 hours ago, impulse said:

 

The conundrum here, of course is the way that our democracy has been stolen from us by big money and special interests just fuels the same argument that caused the founding fathers to enshrine the citizens' rights to protect ourselves from tyranny of a bad government into the Bill of Rights in the first place.

 

That is the conundrum. But the state of affairs is even more bizarre than you say. Most Americans, many do want sensible gun controls. Yet it is the tyranny of government (legislators bought and paid for by the NRA) that is preventing it. By gun advocates' argument, they should be justified in using their hoard of arms to overthrow these legislators so that laws could be passed to control the very arms they used to overthrow the previous legislators.

 

My head hurts.

 

As an aside, the NRA was originally an advocate for responsible gun ownership and responsible gun legislation till its leadership got captured by amoral business interests. 

 

In the American gun debate, the NRA is at the fulcrum. So I thought it might help to understand a little of the history of this organisation.

 

From its earliest days in 1871, up until the mid 1970s, the NRA, was all in favour of gun controls. In fact they helped draft much of the gun control legislation of the day. State gun control laws were not controversial—they were the norm. Within a generation of the country’s founding, many states passed laws banning any citizen from carrying a concealed gun. The cowboy towns that Hollywood lionized as the ‘Wild West’ actually required all guns be turned in to sheriffs while people were within local city limits. Over the years, ever more and stricter gun laws were added with the support of the NRA and, in some cases, even proposed by the NRA.

 

As late as 1967 (and beyond), the Right's darling, Ronald Reagan, was a gun control advocate: In May 1967, two dozen Black Panther Party members walked into the California Statehouse carrying rifles to protest a gun-control bill, prompting then-Gov. Ronald Reagan to comment, “There’s no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons.”

 

The constitutional argument that gun advocates and the NRA use today actually originated with Malcolm X and The Black Panthers.

 

After the mid 1970s, a coup within the NRA changed everything. It was led by a former fired executive, Harlon Carter who, in his youth, had confronted and shot a Mexican teenager whom he accused of stealing his car. Carter's subsequent conviction was later overturned as it was considered self defence since the Mexican had had a knife.

 

Carter had actively hidden this past until it was revealed in an article that appeared after his reelection as NRA chief in 1981.

 

After the boardroom coup of the mid 1970s, Carter became NRA CEO and changed the organization’s motto on its DC headquarters, selectively editing the Second Amendment to reflect a non-compromising militancy, “The Right Of The People To Keep And Bear Arms Shall Not Be Infringed.” Also, the NRA ramped up donations to congressional campaigns. And in 1977, new articles on the Second Amendment appeared in American Rifleman, rewriting American history to legitimize the armed citizen unregulated except by his own ability to buy a gun at whatever price he could afford.

 

So the origins of today's NRA begin with a scheming, murdering lier. That explains a lot.

 

The NRA’s fabricated but escalating view of the Second Amendment was ridiculed by former U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Warren Burger—a conservative appointed by President Richard Nixon—in a PBS Newshour interview in 1991, where he called it “one of the greatest pieces of fraud—I repeat the word ‘fraud’—on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.”

Burger would not have imagined that the U.S. Supreme Court in 2008—13 years after he died—led by libertarian activist Justice Antonin Scalia—would enshrine that “fraud” into the highest echelon of American law by decreeing that the Second Amendment included the right to own a gun for self-protection in one’s home.

 

The above info was variously gleaned from several articles, but especially 

www.salon.com/2013/01/14/the_nra_once_supported_gun_control/

And

http://www.theroot.com/articles/politics/2013/01/black_panthers_and_gun_control_the_nras_flip_flop.html

 

T

[anon4546543]

17 hours ago, Scott said:

This topic is not about Thailand.   If you wish to compare and contrast, that is one thing, but suggesting that farang lives are more important than Thai lives is not going to cut it.  

 

For the poster that asked about the last time there was a mass shooting Thais in the US, I believe that would have been the Buddhist temple in Phoenix, AZ.   It was committed by a Thai national -- Jonathan Doody, born in Nakon Nayok, Thailand.

 

Now please stick to the topic.  

Off topic I am afraid Scott. Could you please expand about the Buddhist temple killings in AZ. Such as what caused the murders etc or at least provide a link.

Cheers

[anon4546543]

11 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

You won this debate in the beginning.

As usual, the hecklers are arguing from emotion rather than reason. In advocating gun control, they need to address how to get the guns off the thugs first. There's no solution.

There is a way. But it will not be easy. 

It is about using current laws to assist in the control of crime.

It is about offering an alternate to to young crime offenders.

It is about employing the parents of potential crime offenders.

It is about education and giving jobs to everyone that you can.

It is about reducing the drug dependency of so many citizens that is allowed by law enforcement.

It is accepting that every person living in the US actually has equal rights.

It is about closing down the slums.

It is about a respect for your nation.

Bah, humbug..... 

[Scott]

29 minutes ago, spiderorchid said:

Off topic I am afraid Scott. Could you please expand about the Buddhist temple killings in AZ. Such as what caused the murders etc or at least provide a link.

Cheers

Yes, it is off-topic, but here is a link that will give you some background and the names of those involved for further investigation.   I recall it was a big deal in Thailand as well and I believe it was reported on Thaivisa.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-temple-murder-idUSBREA2D0SB20140314

[anon4546543]

Just now, Scott said:

Yes, it is off-topic, but here is a link that will give you some background and the names of those involved for further investigation.   I recall it was a big deal in Thailand as well and I believe it was reported on Thaivisa.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-temple-murder-idUSBREA2D0SB20140314

Thank you