Rubber growers to increase pressure over govt 'inaction' on falling prices

[robblok]

10 hours ago, Grubster said:

Until recently most farmers have done ok farming here in Thailand, Growing rice more efficiently means a few things, More fertilizers and pesticides, a lower world market price, expensive machinery meaning big debt. If you think they can produce natural fertilizer at an equal or lower price you are way wrong. Rice here has to be sold on the world market as does rubber so if you shore up the price you can continue to produce it, if not think of something else. I think of a country like a family, you help each other out as you can. Can a farmer here buy a cheap car from Taiwan or elsewhere? NO. Why? because the government protects the rich people here making cars and everything else. The rich fall down crying if they have to help the farmer. Sad

   My neighbors here don't have shoes to wear but I think they get enough to eat with bugs and dogs filling the void. 

Do explain why Vietnam and Laos grow Thailand far more efficient then ? They are not that more advanced... guess you can't

 

I don't think of a country like a family, i think ge the stuff where its best and cheapest. I would not buy inferior products or products at inflated prices to keep my neighbors going. Sorry I believe in specialization and capitalism (up to an extent). Its not the rich who are paying for the farmers its the middle class who gets screwed over. The rich have protected their money a long time ago. I am pro middle class. If your so worried about your neighbor help him.. you said everyone is all a big family. I guess your a man of words not actions. Its always easy for socialists to take money from others to redistribute.. but when they have to pay for it themselves they fall silent. 

 

I believe in helping people to be productive.. but not keeping them dependent on handouts. Give them the tools to be self sufficient (education / loans, infrastructure ect.) Then only help those that really can't work not every lazy sod or person with a sad story. 

 

I thought people had learned after the rice failure you can't and should not influence world prices. In my country when we had over supply of goods the government set production quota's and bought up some of the smaller companies. They did the same with part of the fishing fleet and made sure that no more ships could be registered. It worked, you can't influence demand.. but you can influence supply and use subsidies to make meaningful changes.. not use them as handouts. That is totally unfair to all the taxpayers. 

 

 

[inThailand]

He's correct! The neighboring countries produce more per rai with less fertiliser at a lower cost than Thailand. Once again, poor education and an unwillingness to change is the root cause of the problem.

[Srikcir]

On 7/10/2017 at 4:31 AM, webfact said:

“But we failed to get their attention. And the rubber prices continue to nosedive every day,” he said, adding that the price of rubber latex has now declined to Bt38-40 a kilogram.

That's not true. If anything the six million rubber growers have gotten nothing but priority by Prayut in government for subsidies and credit facilities since the 2014 coup.

Why are the rubber farmers so politically important to Prayut? Many of the rubber farmers reside in the nation's south provinces, a region home to the ultra-royalists who backed Prayut's coup that toppled Yingluck's government. They did so with the expectation of getting higher rubber prices. It's notable that the southern rubber planters network was represented by former Democrat DPM Suthep last year in public protests in defiance of laws that banned political gatherings. Despite Prayut's protestation of having limited public funds to finance farmer subsidies and healthcare, rubber farmers got more subsidies.

 

What's the rubber farmers' problem now? Despite Prayut manipulating prices to a high of Bt60 per kg from less than Bt33 per kg, farmers still made no profit. Production cost has been Bt65 per kg and farmers  originally demanded Prayut give them Bt95 per kg to give them a 30% profit margin - the government eventually agreed to Bt60 per kg and told the farmers to end their protests. Now prices have fallen to Bt38-40 per kg. In June 2017 the government initiated several measures to stabilize rubber price at Bt70 per kg. Guess what? Farmers are not satisfied.

 

What all this means politically is that if Prayut once again concedes more rubber farmer subsidies, he does so to get rubber farmers' electoral loyalty in the next election. If he does not, he will be satisfied with leading the Senate and perhaps position himself legally to become an unelected PM should "circumstances arise."

 

 

 

 

 

[Grubster]

8 hours ago, robblok said:

I guess your a man of words not actions.

 

 

       You say that one should buy the cheapest or best product that they want but yet you don't seam to mind that the people cannot do that as the Hi-Sos are protected from competition. If Thailand doesn't use its resources they will lose out big. The communist countries you mention can and do produce everything cheaper than Thailand can, by your analogy Thailand should stop producing anything and just buy it cheaper from them, or turn into them and force children to work etc. etc.

   Did you notice that I don't need to insult you like you do others?  [above statement]. 

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, Grubster said:

 

 

       You say that one should buy the cheapest or best product that they want but yet you don't seam to mind that the people cannot do that as the Hi-Sos are protected from competition. If Thailand doesn't use its resources they will lose out big. The communist countries you mention can and do produce everything cheaper than Thailand can, by your analogy Thailand should stop producing anything and just buy it cheaper from them, or turn into them and force children to work etc. etc.

   Did you notice that I don't need to insult you like you do others?  [above statement]. 

No you don't insult you just bring up stupid things about your neighbor being hungry. As if I like that. All I can say for someone who is so concerned about others it seems strange that you don't help the guy out with your own money. I feel that real socialists always need others to pay for their ideas. (Not that I am for full 100% capitalism)

 

I dislike the monopolies in Thailand a lot (as would any sensible person). By my analogy people should not be forced to buy stuff that is too expensive just because its home made. I certainly would not buy Dutch products because they are Dutch. Id buy UK products or German products if they are better or better priced. Competition is a good thing people should either improve their act or pack up. But they should not expect governments to help them all the time. If small farming does not work then larger farms should be operated. Competition breeds innovation.. protection.. you seen what happened to the Sovjet Union.. 

 

If we were thinking your way then we would still be using coal instead of electricity or gas. Thing is things change and you can't force people to pay too much for something that is available somewhere else at a lower price. If you can't make it at that price you should not. Do stuff your good at and phase out other stuff. Should my country have hold on to an airplane factory even though it was making losses costing the taxpayers loads of money.. just to keep a few jobs and force our government to buy those planes that were not always as good or as good a deal as those other planes. 

 

Thailand can produce stuff cheaper.. especially if you calculate transport costs and so on.. so they should not stop producing all stuff.. just stuff they are not good at or not high enough quality. I am for competition making stuff better for consumers. 

[robblok]

6 hours ago, Srikcir said:

That's not true. If anything the six million rubber growers have gotten nothing but priority by Prayut in government for subsidies and credit facilities since the 2014 coup.

Why are the rubber farmers so politically important to Prayut? Many of the rubber farmers reside in the nation's south provinces, a region home to the ultra-royalists who backed Prayut's coup that toppled Yingluck's government. They did so with the expectation of getting higher rubber prices. It's notable that the southern rubber planters network was represented by former Democrat DPM Suthep last year in public protests in defiance of laws that banned political gatherings. Despite Prayut's protestation of having limited public funds to finance farmer subsidies and healthcare, rubber farmers got more subsidies.

 

What's the rubber farmers' problem now? Despite Prayut manipulating prices to a high of Bt60 per kg from less than Bt33 per kg, farmers still made no profit. Production cost has been Bt65 per kg and farmers  originally demanded Prayut give them Bt95 per kg to give them a 30% profit margin - the government eventually agreed to Bt60 per kg and told the farmers to end their protests. Now prices have fallen to Bt38-40 per kg. In June 2017 the government initiated several measures to stabilize rubber price at Bt70 per kg. Guess what? Farmers are not satisfied.

 

What all this means politically is that if Prayut once again concedes more rubber farmer subsidies, he does so to get rubber farmers' electoral loyalty in the next election. If he does not, he will be satisfied with leading the Senate and perhaps position himself legally to become an unelected PM should "circumstances arise."

 

Kinda like YL and her rice farmers.. do you get now why I am against all those subsidies.. because its nothing more then buying votes. 

 

Money should be invested in ways to produce cheaper and educate farmers (rice and rubber) to help them switch or stop and find an other job. You can't just keep on pumping money in these farmers while nothing ever changes. 

 

They have had so many handouts.. and what.. nothing. Only hardship will force people to change handouts make people reliant on old ways. 

[Grubster]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

No you don't insult you just bring up stupid things

 

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

If we were thinking your way then we would still be using coal instead of electricity or gas.

Another nice insult, you have a problem when you must insult people when "trying" to make a point.

 

Since when did we stop using the number one producer of electricity [ Coal ]? Comparing Coal to electricity? Brilliant. Shit to Brains maybe.

 

 I believe in subsidies and you don't thats all.

[inThailand]

Let the vote buying commence!

[Grubster]

3 minutes ago, inThailand said:

Let the vote buying commence!

Yes sir thats how democracy works one guy promises this and another promises that,  the one who promises things that the majority want wins. Many times they don't keep their promise but that is in fact exactly how democracy works.

[thaiguzzi]

On 10/07/2017 at 8:54 AM, ben2talk said:

I'm sure they'll bounce back soon.

So original....

Yawn....

[thaiguzzi]

On 10/07/2017 at 11:40 AM, cooked said:

The government actively encouraged people to plant rubber, along with encouraging them to destroy forest land and doing away with traditional rubber growing methods that were much more environment friendly.

Sound familiar?

Pray tell,

 what were "traditional rubber growing methods that were much more enviroment friendly"?

Seriously, i'm interested.

[thaiguzzi]

The "govt  encouraged vast areas of rubber planting to farmers" that had little experience of rubber happened mainly in the NE (Isaan) and to a lesser extent the NW, by Mr T's  govt.

Actually a good idea at the time, rubber prices were peaking and high, and piss poor Northern farmers could get in on the gravy train.

Apart from the weather and terrain being completely different to where it's always been grown - 1500 kms south.

In the South and Malaysia, this area has been the biggest and most productive rubber producing area in the world for the last century. It still is.

That's generations of rubber farmers, tappers and know how. You cannot get rid of that or allow it to happen. It's too big, too important.

[cooked]

2 minutes ago, thaiguzzi said:

Pray tell,

 what were "traditional rubber growing methods that were much more enviroment friendly"?

Seriously, i'm interested.

I'll try to find the link.

Basically, what was insisted on: planting distances. Mono culture. No obligations regarding fertiliser. Government officials encouraged illegal planting in areas which otherwise supported the local population., these trees are being removed by Prayut now but the damage is done. 

[ben2talk]

44 minutes ago, thaiguzzi said:

Pray tell,

 what were "traditional rubber growing methods that were much more enviroment friendly"?

Seriously, i'm interested.

Lolz - so my suspicion from your username that you're actually a Thai is correct.

 

They state quite clearly that the less environmentally friendly method is to clear forest and then plant rubber. This means the MORE friendly method is possibly to avoid clearing forest.

 

Why would you turn to us to do your research for you? If you're seriously interested in agriculture then you should seek your own answers. Most of us aren't really bothered to be honest.

[thaiguzzi]

14 hours ago, ben2talk said:

Lolz - so my suspicion from your username that you're actually a Thai is correct.

 

They state quite clearly that the less environmentally friendly method is to clear forest and then plant rubber. This means the MORE friendly method is possibly to avoid clearing forest.

 

Why would you turn to us to do your research for you? If you're seriously interested in agriculture then you should seek your own answers. Most of us aren't really bothered to be honest.

5 lines of complete tosh. Hey expert, you don't know a lot do ya? DELETED.

If you aint really interested in agriculture (i am) why do you read or even reply in a rubber tree topic?

I'm born and bred English. Anglo Saxon sir name.

Lived here 14 years in Sept.

Have a 25 acre rubber plantation, been tapped and earning money for 7 years.

Anything else to confirm your "suspicions"?

DELETED.

[ben2talk]

3 minutes ago, thaiguzzi said:

5 lines of complete tosh. Hey expert, you don't know a lot do ya? DELETED.

If you aint really interested in agriculture (i am) why do you read or even reply in a rubber tree topic?

I'm born and bred English. Anglo Saxon sir name.

Lived here 14 years in Sept.

Have a 25 acre rubber plantation, been tapped and earning money for 7 years.

Anything else to confirm your "suspicions"?

DELETED.

Quite.

 

The sentence 'Anglo Saxon sir name' also confirms that being born and bred English is certainly nothing to be proud of.

 

If you know so much, then you should understand the reference to farming methods - also being aware that the area of land dedicated to rubber and other diversified farming systems could more than double or triple, replacing evergreen broadleaf trees and swidden-related farming systems.

 

The original plantations here integrated plantations, so farmers have rubber in combination with indigenous vegetation, fruit trees, food plants etc - vegetables, wild animals, herbs, wood for construction etc.

 

Exactly as stated - the less environmentally friendly option is to CLEAR and then PLANT. It's called 'monoculture' and it goes against nature and threatens potential collapse of eco-systems.

 

You understand, it is better to try to explain and understand than to shout like a 'bibble in a can'. 

 

There is little point in being rude.

[thaiguzzi]

1 hour ago, ben2talk said:

Quite.

 

The sentence 'Anglo Saxon sir name' also confirms that being born and bred English is certainly nothing to be proud of.

 

If you know so much, then you should understand the reference to farming methods - also being aware that the area of land dedicated to rubber and other diversified farming systems could more than double or triple, replacing evergreen broadleaf trees and swidden-related farming systems.

 

The original plantations here integrated plantations, so farmers have rubber in combination with indigenous vegetation, fruit trees, food plants etc - vegetables, wild animals, herbs, wood for construction etc.

 

Exactly as stated - the less environmentally friendly option is to CLEAR and then PLANT. It's called 'monoculture' and it goes against nature and threatens potential collapse of eco-systems.

 

You understand, it is better to try to explain and understand than to shout like a 'bibble in a can'. 

 

There is little point in being rude.

I say old chap.

Why don't you have a walk thru an old several generations rubber plantation in the deep South. They've been at it for over a century, and know a bit more about plantations than you or me.

Before phrases like enviromentally friendly and monoculture were invented.

Bit difficult to grow fruit trees, veggies "wood for construction" INSIDE an established plantation as the trees can get rather tall, with a large canopy, hence natural sunlight does'nt get in.

Old bean.

[Grubster]

2 hours ago, ben2talk said:

Quite.

 

The sentence 'Anglo Saxon sir name' also confirms that being born and bred English is certainly nothing to be proud of.

 

If you know so much, then you should understand the reference to farming methods - also being aware that the area of land dedicated to rubber and other diversified farming systems could more than double or triple, replacing evergreen broadleaf trees and swidden-related farming systems.

 

The original plantations here integrated plantations, so farmers have rubber in combination with indigenous vegetation, fruit trees, food plants etc - vegetables, wild animals, herbs, wood for construction etc.

 

Exactly as stated - the less environmentally friendly option is to CLEAR and then PLANT. It's called 'monoculture' and it goes against nature and threatens potential collapse of eco-systems.

 

You understand, it is better to try to explain and understand than to shout like a 'bibble in a can'. 

 

There is little point in being rude.

Are you growing vegetables between your rows of rubber trees, I can't get anything to grow around the Paper trees my neighbor has on our lot line. Even lemon grass.

[ben2talk]

37 minutes ago, Grubster said:

Are you growing vegetables between your rows of rubber trees, I can't get anything to grow around the Paper trees my neighbor has on our lot line. Even lemon grass.

No, I'm just repeating what I've read - about there being two ways to do rubber, and that clearing and planting has a bigger impact on the environment. I don't know about paper trees. 

 

I'm pretty sure that you need separate fertiliser for anything you plant - so stuff won't grow if it isn't fed or watered properly.

 

Apparently there are rewards for  'eco-friendly' methodology - so it's worth looking into.

http://rubberboard.org.in/ManageCultivation.asp?Id=234

Edited July 13, 2017 by ben2talk

[Grubster]

9 minutes ago, ben2talk said:

No, I'm just repeating what I've read - about there being two ways to do rubber, and that clearing and planting has a bigger impact on the environment. I don't know about paper trees. 

 

I'm pretty sure that you need separate fertiliser for anything you plant - so stuff won't grow if it isn't fed or watered properly.

 

Apparently there are rewards for  'eco-friendly' methodology - so it's worth looking into.

http://rubberboard.org.in/ManageCultivation.asp?Id=234

I really don't see much way that you could farm 'eco-friendly here and make money but I sure hope it happens here and world wide, Back home in the US the Chemicals, fertilizers, removal of hedge rows, tiling and burying of small streams etc. has all but eliminated all wildlife and fauna. I would be willing to pay extra for real vegetables and grains if they come available but the problem is that most are not willing or cannot afford to do so. I can tell you I do not have a green thumb, most things I plant seams to die an early death.

[rickudon]

You can protect an industry internal to your country by means of tariffs on imports, and other regulations. But once you need to export, you are at the mercy of world prices, which change. It does seem that government advice was ill-researched (never think internationally). When i came to live in Thailand 7 years ago i did some basic research on alternative crops for the family to grow, i did a bit on rubber and quickly found that massive areas had been planted with rubber early in the millennium by Laos, Vietnam and other countries. Given the 7 years to tapping it was predicted that by 2015 rubber would be in over supply,  As it is. The oil price also makes this worse.

 

The only way to deal with this is PROPERLY researched advice, sadly lacking in Thailand. Advice on changing crops is a knee jerk reaction without consideration of supply and demand. And when some agricultural product is in over supply, you either leave it to the market (which is efficient, but hard on farmers) or introduce quotas. Guarantee only that required for internal demand needs, at a floor price. Grow more, up to you, no help. As for use in road construction, i read that it increases road construction costs by 50-100% (not sure if that was total cost or just materials). The amount the rubber growers want used would cost about 6 billion baht. That's a lot. Rice scheme maybe cost more, but a lot more farmers grow rice. 

 

SCB's EIC (economic intelligence unit) was predicting prices of over 70 baht a kilo as recently as March this year, Just goes to show how inept some of Thailand's economists are.

[Grubster]

16 minutes ago, rickudon said:

You can protect an industry internal to your country by means of tariffs on imports, and other regulations. But once you need to export, you are at the mercy of world prices, which change. It does seem that government advice was ill-researched (never think internationally). When i came to live in Thailand 7 years ago i did some basic research on alternative crops for the family to grow, i did a bit on rubber and quickly found that massive areas had been planted with rubber early in the millennium by Laos, Vietnam and other countries. Given the 7 years to tapping it was predicted that by 2015 rubber would be in over supply,  As it is. The oil price also makes this worse.

 

The only way to deal with this is PROPERLY researched advice, sadly lacking in Thailand. Advice on changing crops is a knee jerk reaction without consideration of supply and demand. And when some agricultural product is in over supply, you either leave it to the market (which is efficient, but hard on farmers) or introduce quotas. Guarantee only that required for internal demand needs, at a floor price. Grow more, up to you, no help. As for use in road construction, i read that it increases road construction costs by 50-100% (not sure if that was total cost or just materials). The amount the rubber growers want used would cost about 6 billion baht. That's a lot. Rice scheme maybe cost more, but a lot more farmers grow rice. 

 

SCB's EIC (economic intelligence unit) was predicting prices of over 70 baht a kilo as recently as March this year, Just goes to show how inept some of Thailand's economists are.

So if other countries drive the world prices down with their subsidies then Thailand's farmers will just have to think of something else huh. Pretty cruel I think. Vietnam spends tens of billions of baht on rice support programs and sell their rice domestically for much more than export. I'm sure the same is true with rubber too as most countries support their largest commodities.

[rickudon]

You cannot dictate what other countries will do. If they use unfair subsidies on their produce, all you can do is block sales of their subsidised product in your country.  I never suggested subsidies as such. Supporting a minimum price when you have restrictive quotas doesn't make your exports cheaper, as they have to sell at the world price. But you may wish to protect your own market from price fluctuations. However, you cannot just intervene and buy up all production at a high price, it is a certain money loser. Ask Yingluck.