The Future, Electric Cars

[swissie]

Some european governments have issued definite dates as to when combustion engines (propelling cars) will not be allowed anymore. 100% electric. How nice and how good for our lungs!

At the same time, nuclear power plants and coal fired power plants are being "retired".

Under these circumstances, can anyone tell me, where the "electricity" will be coming from to power a Zillion cars?
Are those burocrats aware of how much energy (in form of BTU's if you will) it takes to move a Zillon cars in Europe every single day?

So again, where will all the "electricity" come from?

Serious answers please. I would not consider "electricity comes from the socket in the wall" as a serious answer.
Cheers. 

[impulse]

In a conversation with a buddy this week, I likened this situation to the guys who made all the hippy journals by running their cars on recycled french fry oil.  It looks fantastic until the 3rd (or 40th) guy in a city follows suit and there isn't enough recycled french fry oil for all of them.  All of a sudden, they actually have to start paying for their recycled cooking oil, costs go up, and the only real benefit is that their exhaust smells like french fries.

 

I'm hoping the answer is solar and wind power, but those come with their own environmental costs.  (look through YouTube for solar plants frying birds that fly through, and windmills chopping them up)

 

The one absolute benefit I do see is the economies of scale that will drive the cost of batteries down and improve the storage capacity, so home solar (PV) will finally become viable.  That by itself will be a plus, and a lot of the power that frees up will be available for transportation.  But like swissie, I wonder where the electricity will come from, because so much of the infrastructure is already at its limits.

 

On an aside, I can't help but wonder if we will actually change weather patterns if we start sucking enough energy out of the wind in the atmosphere.  Or change ocean currents if we start harnessing the power from tidal currents.  200 years ago, we thought we could never really affect whole oceans or the whole atmosphere- and now we know better.   I wonder if we can get efficient enough at taking power from the earth that we create all kinds of unintended consequences.

 

Edited July 27, 2017 by impulse

[Kwasaki]

Gas powered generators. 

[StefanBBK]

it will and must happen. Wind, water, solar, heat exchange will yield enough energy.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[EnlightenedAtheist]

12 hours ago, swissie said:

At the same time, nuclear power plants and coal fired power plants are being "retired".

Really (nuclear plants)? But, you are right, if electric cars are going to be used, the need for electricity will increase dramatically. Dams are the most efficient means to get electricity. Solar panels have a few disadvantages that the industry will never talk about, such as they need water to keep their efficiency up and they are usually hot which makes installing them in roofs in hot countries not such a great idea. Nuclear power plants are not the monsters that some people make them to be, but maybe we should shut down all the highways and roads because there sure are lots of accidents on those roads! 

 

• Nuclear power capacity worldwide is increasing steadily, with over 60 reactors under construction in 15 countries.
• Most reactors on order or planned are in the Asian region, though there are major plans for new units in Russia.
• Significant further capacity is being created by plant upgrading.
• Plant life extension programs are maintaining capacity, in USA particularly.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and-future-generation/plans-for-new-reactors-worldwide.aspx

 

Edited July 28, 2017 by EnlightenedAtheist

[brain150]

8 minutes ago, StefanBBK said:

it will and must happen. Wind, water, solar, heat exchange will yield enough energy.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

That's just plain and simple: WRONG !!!

It's all the wrong technologies as none of them is actually sustainable [as a whole system !]

It's just making everybody dependent on another source of fuel - same game, different name.

 

It's all propaganda to make sure nobody requires the technology from Tesla who had a car running without any "known" fuel 100 years ago !

Energy has to be free for everybody and sustainable. The technology is known and patented for 100 years !!!

 

[dotpoom]

Do away with the sun roof and replace ut with a solar roof. 

   

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

3 minutes ago, StefanBBK said:

it will and must happen. Wind, water, solar, heat exchange will yield enough energy.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I think you must research this as at present these sources only contribute about 10 % of electricity supply in Europe. The other fact this that green energy is not green as the equipment used are not green, for example the batteries used in solar energy storage and electrical cars. Most green enertgy resouces are not reliable, solar only when there is sun and wind when there is wind. Due to this there is always an energy gap that must be filled by conventional sources which is reliable. The visual pollution of alternative energy sources will become an issue, the unsightly solar and wind farms creates a wasteland. The scientific truth is howevr that electrical vehicles is highly inefficient. During each process of creating, transporting and using electricity there is a loss in the energy (heat). For example you use sun to provide solar electricity. There is an energy loss between the suns energy and the efficiency of the solar panels, then between the solar panel and the electric vehicle there is further losses in energy. This is highly inefficient compared to a direct fuel source in vehicles like fossile fuels. I believe that electrical vehicles will only be gap stop before an efficient and clean alternative to fossile fuel will be found.

[williamgeorgeallen]

much of the energy being produced now is being wasted as it is not being used due to the changing demands on the grid. as batteries get better they can be incorporated into the grid and the houses they supply. plug in cars can also be used to store energy and feed back to even out the demand on the grid. look up the battery being installed into the wind farm in south australia.

[natway09]

The actual BTU's needed to run cars will actually increase due to transfer loss.

The boffins in charge of the electric car are well meaning, but will be a long time in Asia before it happens.

The advantage I see at this time is that you can move your pollution out of the city .

If the energy required to run your EC comes from a dirty old lignite burning generator 150KM away

not only do you need nearly 10% more energy but the resultant pollution decrease to help the world

figures is actually more carbon produced.

Solar will not solve our overall problems until we come up with a much cheaper way of storing energy to

use when there is no sun. Wind power will help when they can produce at a reasonable cost.

If in a position to charge your car directly off solar panels in your home (or off the roof of the car)

now we are talking

[aslimversgwm]

1 hour ago, brain150 said:

That's just plain and simple: WRONG !!!

It's all the wrong technologies as none of them is actually sustainable [as a whole system !]

It's just making everybody dependent on another source of fuel - same game, different name.

 

It's all propaganda to make sure nobody requires the technology from Tesla who had a car running without any "known" fuel 100 years ago !

Energy has to be free for everybody and sustainable. The technology is known and patented for 100 years !!!

 

Are you referring to hydrogen powered vehicles? I seem to recall that there are already prototype cars running on hydrogen power whose emissions are water only. How is this progressing as compared to electric cars? 

[steve73]

Solar Photovoltaics capture around 20% of the suns radiation - which sounds low, but is considerably higher than bio-mass which is only 2-3%, and even less to actually make useable fuels such as ethanol or bio-diesel). 

 

Battery recharge efficiency is around 90%, and the efficiency of the stored energy to actual transportation higher again.  So around 85% of the power used to charge the battery is used to actually move the vehicle.  This compares to around 25-35% for a typical combustion engine. 

 

If you're using hydrocarbons to produce the electricity then coal is around 30-35% (but produces high CO2 emissions); oil generation is typically slightly higher efficiency and produces less CO2; Gas can be as high as 50% efficiency and produces less emissions again.

If you include distribution losses from generator to home then there will be little overall benefit EXCEPT that emissions are removed from city centres.

 

Localized (home) solar arrays will become more commonly used to recharge EV's (most of the time), with occasional re-charges required only on longer journey.

 

Longer-term I think that Hydrogen Fuel Cells will become more popular to overcome the range limitation of current EVs.  I see Toyota are already producing them... 

http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/environmental_technology/fuelcell_vehicle/

 

 

 

 

[zzidenn]

1 hour ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

Really (nuclear plants)? But, you are right, if electric cars are going to be used, the need for electricity will increase dramatically. Dams are the most efficient means to get electricity. Solar panels have a few disadvantages that the industry will never talk about, such as they need water to keep their efficiency up and they are usually hot which makes installing them in roofs in hot countries not such a great idea. Nuclear power plants are not the monsters that some people make them to be, but maybe we should shut down all the highways and roads because there sure are lots of accidents on those roads! 

 

• Nuclear power capacity worldwide is increasing steadily, with over 60 reactors under construction in 15 countries.
• Most reactors on order or planned are in the Asian region, though there are major plans for new units in Russia.
• Significant further capacity is being created by plant upgrading.
• Plant life extension programs are maintaining capacity, in USA particularly.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and-future-generation/plans-for-new-reactors-worldwide.aspx

 

france has indeed announced that they will install further nuclear power plants.

[Mansell]

1 hour ago, dotpoom said:

Do away with the sun roof and replace ut with a solar roof. 

   

This has already been done, but it is used to keep the car cool when parked by using the a/c.

[Laza 45]

2 hours ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

much of the energy being produced now is being wasted as it is not being used due to the changing demands on the grid. as batteries get better they can be incorporated into the grid and the houses they supply. plug in cars can also be used to store energy and feed back to even out the demand on the grid. look up the battery being installed into the wind farm in south australia.

Good point.. most charging will be done at night/off peak times... making the grid more efficient.. within 10 years most of the electricity will be coming from renewables with gas as an expensive backup.. 

[brain150]

Tesla had wireless electrical transfer 100 years ago - no more batteries !

He used the electricity generated from planet earth - at no cost !

 

That's what is called FREE energy, fully sustainable.

 

None of the technologies discussed in this thread is sustainable or free.

As such it's just another "alternative" to the energy problem with a different name.

A simple way to keep a dead economy going.

 

As long as free energy technology is not demanded by the people we will never have it.

The technology is well known for a long time and also well hidden by Governments and

Corporations as it secures full control over the basic need we have: energy !!!

 

[MyFriend You]

In Hawaii, the recharging stations in the parking lots are solar paneled and are free!!  They may not be free much longer since more Electric Cars are being bought - I almost got hit by one crossing the parking lot, didn't hear a thing, they are going to have to come up with some sort of alarm so pedestrians can hear the damned things.  No, I wasn't texting, just walking but she came up fast on me and hit the brake in time.

[Laza 45]

47 minutes ago, TunnelRat69 said:

In Hawaii, the recharging stations in the parking lots are solar paneled and are free!!  They may not be free much longer since more Electric Cars are being bought - I almost got hit by one crossing the parking lot, didn't hear a thing, they are going to have to come up with some sort of alarm so pedestrians can hear the damned things.  No, I wasn't texting, just walking but she came up fast on me and hit the brake in time.

I just read an article a couple of days ago that recorded voice warnings are planned to be used... Japanese models..'please be aware that you are in danger..'... BMW... 'f*** off...'...

[Muhendis]

3 hours ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

much of the energy being produced now is being wasted as it is not being used due to the changing demands on the grid. as batteries get better they can be incorporated into the grid and the houses they supply. plug in cars can also be used to store energy and feed back to even out the demand on the grid. look up the battery being installed into the wind farm in south australia.

Your comment is interesting because in the UK the government has recently set up a research group to come up with some answers about the best battery technology. The aim of the study, for that's what it is, is to change our perception of the domestic electricity supply. At the moment electricity comes from the national grid which needs to maintain supply whatever the demand. This new idea which I happen to think is a really good one, will mean each house or group of houses will have it's own set of batteries and inverter. This would have a levelling effect on the peaks and troughs of the daily demand cycle and would likely isolate the car battery charging peak which would otherwise put a strain on the national grid between 17:00 and 01:00 the next day. 

 

As others have mentioned, lithium batteries do not have a totally green full life footprint. They are, however, better by far than fossil fueled combustion engines. We all understand a bit about electricity, batteries which makes battery cars easily saleable. Batteries take hours and hours to recharge. What would you say to the idea of re-energising your electric car as quickly as filling it with petrol. You can do this with a fuel cell which uses hydrogen and oxygen (from the air) to make enough electricity to power your electric car. Mass production of hydrogen is not so green but it gives as good a carbon footprint as lithium batteries. 

 

Whilst on a trip to Holland recently, I had the pleasure of being given a lift in an electric car. All I can say is WOW. I was most impressed.

[Kevbo]

6 hours ago, SOUTHERNSTAR said:

I think you must research this as at present these sources only contribute about 10 % of electricity supply in Europe. The other fact this that green energy is not green as the equipment used are not green, for example the batteries used in solar energy storage and electrical cars. Most green enertgy resouces are not reliable, solar only when there is sun and wind when there is wind. Due to this there is always an energy gap that must be filled by conventional sources which is reliable. The visual pollution of alternative energy sources will become an issue, the unsightly solar and wind farms creates a wasteland. The scientific truth is howevr that electrical vehicles is highly inefficient. During each process of creating, transporting and using electricity there is a loss in the energy (heat). For example you use sun to provide solar electricity. There is an energy loss between the suns energy and the efficiency of the solar panels, then between the solar panel and the electric vehicle there is further losses in energy. This is highly inefficient compared to a direct fuel source in vehicles like fossile fuels. I believe that electrical vehicles will only be gap stop before an efficient and clean alternative to fossile fuel will be found.

Agree, all electric is a nice dream but impractical, even if there were finite supplies of power the infrastructure for charging vehicles is many years (decades) off. The only viable alternative appears to be hydrogen, however it is very volatile and combustible, so back to the drawing board for the boffins

[tryasimight]

5 hours ago, steve73 said:

Solar Photovoltaics capture around 20% of the suns radiation - which sounds low, but is considerably higher than bio-mass which is only 2-3%, and even less to actually make useable fuels such as ethanol or bio-diesel). 

 

Battery recharge efficiency is around 90%, and the efficiency of the stored energy to actual transportation higher again.  So around 85% of the power used to charge the battery is used to actually move the vehicle.  This compares to around 25-35% for a typical combustion engine. 

 

If you're using hydrocarbons to produce the electricity then coal is around 30-35% (but produces high CO2 emissions); oil generation is typically slightly higher efficiency and produces less CO2; Gas can be as high as 50% efficiency and produces less emissions again.

If you include distribution losses from generator to home then there will be little overall benefit EXCEPT that emissions are removed from city centres.

 

Localized (home) solar arrays will become more commonly used to recharge EV's (most of the time), with occasional re-charges required only on longer journey.

 

Longer-term I think that Hydrogen Fuel Cells will become more popular to overcome the range limitation of current EVs.  I see Toyota are already producing them... 

http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/environmental_technology/fuelcell_vehicle/

 

 

 

 

We have never produced more carbon dioxide on this planet than has ever been here since this planet was formed. Fact

[tryasimight]

3 hours ago, brain150 said:

Tesla had wireless electrical transfer 100 years ago - no more batteries !

He used the electricity generated from planet earth - at no cost !

 

That's what is called FREE energy, fully sustainable.

 

None of the technologies discussed in this thread is sustainable or free.

As such it's just another "alternative" to the energy problem with a different name.

A simple way to keep a dead economy going.

 

As long as free energy technology is not demanded by the people we will never have it.

The technology is well known for a long time and also well hidden by Governments and

Corporations as it secures full control over the basic need we have: energy !!!

 

Nicola Tesla had an idea for free transmission wireless transmission of electricity.....but it went nowhere. He was a genius no doubt.....but wireless electricity is still beyond our technologies even now.

NASA had a thing going 20 or so years ago dragging a conductor through the earths magnetic field, I don't know how that worked out but haven't hear any more about it.

[johnmcc6]

Hydrogen is the future. Commercially available in California now. Fill up as fast as a petrol station at similar cost. Currently not enough stations but in the future will replace inefficient battery cars. Station roll out is going on between Baha  California  and British Columbia ,One of the most traveled highways on the west coast . Will eventually link cities in the east like Vegas and beyond . Batteries are going to be like nuke waste trying to get rid of them when worn out. The cost of making plus limited life make them a non starter for the future. Top gear did a big test of all electric cars last year. They weigh too much to corner and handle well and with batteries manufacture and limited life there is no real benefit to current guzzlers. A lot of feel good only. Top gear said the future is definitely hydrogen. 

[observer90210]

First the oil pumping mafia's would need to be removed from the equation!

 

Second, longer and higher quality rechargeable cells would be a must...

 

Third, electricity to power the cars could be solar for instance...

 

Many alternatives exist to oil and combustive engines... we all know that!

 

It's just that there are too many interests, money and corruption involved that put a brake on faster developpement of affordable, renewable and sustainable methods of individual transport. 

[Enoon]

 

Sorry to disappoint you (and many other TVers) but there will not be "a zillion cars" in the future.

 

One way or another individual, privately owned transport will be much reduced.

 

You might be able to travel as an individual, but the vehicle will not be owned by you, only hired/borrowed for the duration of the journey.

 

The vast majority of journeys will take place in mass capacity, high frequency/flexibility public transport systems.  System is the important word. The "vehicles" themselves (which will be composed of greater/lesser numbers of sub-units) will provide varying capacities and will, of course, be designed/optimised to use the "new-energy"  motive units which must, not may, be developed.

 

It did not start, and will not finish, with the "oil engine".

 

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Enoon

[Enoon]

29 minutes ago, observer90210 said:

First the oil pumping mafia's would need to be removed from the equation!

 

Second, longer and higher quality rechargeable cells would be a must...

 

Third, electricity to power the cars could be solar for instance...

 

Many alternatives exist to oil and combustive engines... we all know that!

 

It's just that there are too many interests, money and corruption involved that put a brake on faster developpement of affordable, renewable and sustainable methods of individual transport. 

 

The energy companies want to stay in business, they will start to invest in new-energy power as carbon fuels become scarce and are reserved for "strategic" use.

 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Enoon

[observer90210]

9 minutes ago, Enoon said:

 

The energy companies want to stay in business, they will start to invest in new-energy power as carbon fuels become scarce and are reserved for "strategic" use.

 

Sure they will as they have already purchased many patents of such technology that is safely tucked away sleeping and useless in safes for until the next oil Armaguedon!

[Familyonthemove]

As demand for electric power increases exponentially with tbe scrapping of petrol and diesel cars, the economics of coal will look favourable again, so the mines will re-open.

 

The transmission losses of even the most efficient power grid and battery powered car will be greater than burning fosil fuels directly within the car, and the fastest growing ecomomies do not have efficient national power grids.  So the result will be increased CO2 production.  The whole electric car project is nothing more than a politically correct, loss making, illogical vanity project. 

 

Efficient public transport and bicycles are the answers,  but unpalatable for most people except those with no power or influence. 

 

The environment is screwed.

[williamgeorgeallen]

12 hours ago, aslimversgwm said:

Are you referring to hydrogen powered vehicles? I seem to recall that there are already prototype cars running on hydrogen power whose emissions are water only. How is this progressing as compared to electric cars? 

seems hydrogen has lost the battle. the infrastructure needed was always going to be too much. producing , storing, shipping and selling it is a far more expensive option than electricity which is available pretty much every where. you dont even need to drive anywhere to get it. just plug in over night. electric car running costs are about 25% the cost of a  petrol here in new zealand and hydrogen cant compete with that. electric car range is already over 100km which is more than double the average daily commute. range is doubling about every 3 or 4 years and the charging station network is slowly being built up.  there is a lot of talk about charging stations but they seem to be hard on the batteries so most people should trickle charge over night on cheaper off peak electricity. i am hoping to get a nissan leaf. they are quite cheap and come in as used imports from japan and should get even cheaper when the new model come out next year.

[williamgeorgeallen]

3 hours ago, johnmcc6 said:

Hydrogen is the future. Commercially available in California now. Fill up as fast as a petrol station at similar cost. Currently not enough stations but in the future will replace inefficient battery cars. Station roll out is going on between Baha  California  and British Columbia ,One of the most traveled highways on the west coast . Will eventually link cities in the east like Vegas and beyond . Batteries are going to be like nuke waste trying to get rid of them when worn out. The cost of making plus limited life make them a non starter for the future. Top gear did a big test of all electric cars last year. They weigh too much to corner and handle well and with batteries manufacture and limited life there is no real benefit to current guzzlers. A lot of feel good only. Top gear said the future is definitely hydrogen. 

interesting. i need to watch that top gear episode.  it would seem the investment into batteries worldwide is considerably greater than into hydrogen production and distribution. batteries for cars are a problem but they can be reused in houses as products like the tesla wall when their efficiency drops. they are almost 100% recyclable.

battery capacity is doubling every 3 to 4 years which means you can halve the weight over that time to have the same amount of power. what weight there is sits very low to the road giving electric cars a very low center of gravity and great handling, not that it is so important in your average family car. electric cars are taking record race times from combustion engines from many race tracks due to excellent acceleration. it is the great acceleration that makes electric cars better for start stop commutes. in fact they are more efficient in that role. look up one pedal driving. the re generative breaking with one pedal driving is very impressive. the fact electric cars have almost zero maintenance is a major selling point for me. the less combustible materials we have around the better as well. 

Edited July 28, 2017 by williamgeorgeallen