North Korea tests another ICBM, claims all of U.S. in strike range

[rijb]

5 hours ago, Naam said:

the Germans have already invaded France but the French haven't realised it yet

 

joke aside... i answered the question "was North Korea threatened by nukes?" to which the answer is a clear YES.

The moon was threatened too.  You don't see them trying to build a nuke.

 

http://nypost.com/2017/05/01/usa-and-ussr-planned-to-nuke-the-moon-out-of-existence/

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I have an answer for you. We tried the stick with obvious results and  to the detriment of the NK people, so why not try the carrot now? And don't tell me we have tried the carrot  in the past. our policy has always being the destruction of any communist system.

Interdependent countries  do not wage war on each other.

  Case and point China.  China needs a healthy west , and the west needs a healthy China. a war between the two would be detrimental to both and the last possible option. 

Open diplomatic relations with NK, develop trade. It would be good for the west , good for NK and good for SK.

But there is a problem , a successful communist system might become attractive to some people in the west

and the 1% that controls the wealth cant have that.

 

 

 

What would constitute such a "carrot"? Is such a "carrot" (whatever it is) conditioned on concessions by NK? Open diplomatic relations with NK? Why not. Is NK up for that? Ready to open up for trade and all that full international relations imply? Doubt it.

 

Interdependent countries have waged war on each other in the past, and will do so in the future. It may reduce the chances for war, making the price tag higher, but it's not a a guarantee. And NK is neither successful, nor truly communist. It's failed dictatorship.

 

 

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, tonray said:

The 1 % doesn't care as long as they can make money from it. Vietnam is a trading partner and American companies sell into that market. Just find a way for the 1% to get richer and ideology means nothing.

only after Vietnam ,  

"Vietnam converted to a market economy in 1987 and ever since it has sought to establish an international position. It joined the Association of South-east Asian Nations in 1995, then in 1999 signed a trade agreement with the US, enabling trade to take off. In 2007, it joined the World Trade Organisation.  "

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jun/29/vietnam-economy-growth-finance-success

[sirineou]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

What would constitute such a "carrot"? Is such a "carrot" (whatever it is) conditioned on concessions by NK? Open diplomatic relations with NK? Why not. Is NK up for that? Ready to open up for trade and all that full international relations imply? Doubt it.

 

Interdependent countries have waged war on each other in the past, and will do so in the future. It may reduce the chances for war, making the price tag higher, but it's not a a guarantee. And NK is neither successful, nor truly communist. It's failed dictatorship.

 

 

Sure as long as humans are concerned, anything can happen , but as you said it does make it much less likely.

Someone mentioned Vietnam,. Is a war with Vietnam more or less likely now, .If we had threatened it with destruction and it had the capacity to do so,  would they also be looking at security via a nuclear deterrent?

Instead they were brought in to the family of nations. not with a stick but with a carrot. We all know what the stick did.

The people in Vietnam are doing much better, and we are doing much better with them, A win win situation 

what's wrong with that?

[tonray]

12 minutes ago, sirineou said:

only after Vietnam ,  

"Vietnam converted to a market economy in 1987 and ever since it has sought to establish an international position. It joined the Association of South-east Asian Nations in 1995, then in 1999 signed a trade agreement with the US, enabling trade to take off. In 2007, it joined the World Trade Organisation.  "

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jun/29/vietnam-economy-growth-finance-success

Still a communist government same as the PRC. North Korea would have no problem making fat boy richer if the world allowed him.

[Morch]

Just now, sirineou said:

Sure as long as humans are concerned, anything can happen , but as you said it does make it much less likely.

Someone mentioned Vietnam,. Is a war with Vietnam more or less likely now, .If we had threatened it with destruction and it had the capacity to do so,  would they also be looking at security via a nuclear deterrent?

Instead they were brought in to the family of nations. not with a stick but with a carrot. We all know what the stick did.

The people in Vietnam are doing much better, and we are doing much better with them, A win win situation 

what's wrong with that?

 

And here I was thinking we're discussing NK. NK isn't Vietnam. Not a similar outcome post-war.

Still nothing as to what "carrot" stands for, what it means in terms of NK concessions and any opinion as to NK being up for that.

[sirineou]

Just now, tonray said:

Still a communist government same as the PRC. North Korea would have no problem making fat boy richer if the world allowed him.

and the NK people as well, 

I am sure the fat cats in Vietnam got richer, but so did the people, and the world is safer.

Dont the fat cats in our system also get rich? have you checked the distribution of wealth in the west lately?

[baboon]

25 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

What would constitute such a "carrot"? Is such a "carrot" (whatever it is) conditioned on concessions by NK? Open diplomatic relations with NK? Why not. Is NK up for that? Ready to open up for trade and all that full international relations imply? Doubt it.

 

Interdependent countries have waged war on each other in the past, and will do so in the future. It may reduce the chances for war, making the price tag higher, but it's not a a guarantee. And NK is neither successful, nor truly communist. It's failed dictatorship.

 

 

There are a fair number of Embassies in the DPRK. Kim Jong il's administration were calling for a US mission too, as they did not want to have to keep going through China, who they do not particularly trust.

Open up for trade? See ventures like the Rason Special Economic Zone or the (former) Kaesong Industrial Region. They want trade.

A treaty formally concluding the Korean war including a non-aggression pact would be useful too.

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

And here I was thinking we're discussing NK. NK isn't Vietnam. Not a similar outcome post-war.

Still nothing as to what "carrot" stands for, what it means in terms of NK concessions and any opinion as to NK being up for that.

re: Vietnam One can offer examples where cooperation worked.

2020 is coming fast, if you elect me Dictator of the US, not only I promise a that you will all be winning so much you will get tired of winning, but I will open a dialog with NK, and foster a environment of cooperation, I will encourage investment and make the fat cats so rich, it would be unthinkable for them to not play ball. 

Why shouldn't Kim Jong-un become rich, he deserves to get rich, he must have balls the size of basketballs he bet his life. .

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, baboon said:

There are a fair number of Embassies in the DPRK. Kim Jong il's administration were calling for a US mission too, as they did not want to have to keep going through China, who they do not particularly trust.

Open up for trade? See ventures like the Rason Special Economic Zone or the (former) Kaesong Industrial Region. They want trade.

A treaty formally concluding the Korean war including a non-aggression pact would be useful too.

 

There can't be a give and take that doesn't involve all sides. Opening a diplomatic mission is hard to do without other conditions being met. Opening up to trade as in opening the country. I don't think Junior is up for that, as no chance he can maintain his hold under such conditions. Again, not so much to do with what ought or should be done - we probably don't have that many differences on that, just the probability of it coming about.

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, sirineou said:

re: Vietnam One can offer examples where cooperation worked.

2020 is coming fast, if you elect me Dictator of the US, not only I promise a that you will all be winning so much you will get tired of winning, but I will open a dialog with NK, and foster a environment of cooperation, I will encourage investment and make the fat cats so rich, it would be unthinkable for them to not play ball. 

Why shouldn't Kim Jong-un become rich, he deserves to get rich, he must have balls the size of basketballs he bet his life. .

 

I haven't elected any dictators lately, bark up another tree. No idea what you're on about, other than not being able to make an argument regarding the circumstances relating to NK. Sounds like: Because Trump, Because Vietnam, All Hail Kim.

[sirineou]

12 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I haven't elected any dictators lately, bark up another tree. No idea what you're on about, other than not being able to make an argument regarding the circumstances relating to NK. Sounds like: Because Trump, Because Vietnam, All Hail Kim.

It might not be that  I am not able to make an argument , it might be that  you can't understand one.

I told you what I would do if I was a dictator, (sorry you did not appreciate the humor.).  and backed up my argument of what I would do if I could, by offering examples of where similar approach was successfully tried ,

Other than drawing pictures I dont know what else I could do.

[Naam]

59 minutes ago, baboon said:

A treaty formally concluding the Korean war including a non-aggression pact would be useful too.

[Morch]

14 minutes ago, sirineou said:

It might not be that  I am not able to make an argument , it might be that  you can't understand one.

I told you what I would do if I was a dictator, (sorry you did not appreciate the humor.).  and backed up my argument of what I would do if I could, by offering examples of where similar approach was successfully tried ,

Other than drawing pictures I dont know what else I could do.

 

Yeah...what you would do if you were a dictator isn't much of an argument. You base your approach on a simplified version of something that happened vs. another country and under different circumstances. Not very compelling as well.

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Yeah...what you would do if you were a dictator isn't much of an argument. You base your approach on a simplified version of something that happened vs. another country and under different circumstances. Not very compelling as well.

you asked and i answered, sorry it was not to your satisfaction, I will try harder next time.

[Stargeezr]

Problem is that NK is not a communist country, it is a dictatorship.

  That is not at all the same.

Geezer

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, Stargrazer9889 said:

Problem is that NK is not a communist country, it is a dictatorship.

  That is not at all the same.

Geezer

Are you defending communism? God bless your little Marxist soul!

[Stargeezr]

I guess I am saying that in my opinion , the dictator in NK is a nut job, and I do fear

that if he ever gets a nuclear missle developed, he may be crazy enough to actually use

it. At least China has a stable leadership. Communist or not.

Geezer

[YetAnother]

On 7/29/2017 at 1:51 PM, rooster59 said:

proved its ability to strike all of America's mainland,

this is great news ! only issue is what to call the hole that used to be n korea

[YetAnother]

11 hours ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

I guess I am saying that in my opinion , the dictator in NK is a nut job, and I do fear

that if he ever gets a nuclear missle developed, he may be crazy enough to actually use

it. At least China has a stable leadership. Communist or not.

Geezer

am with you on this one; that nk guy has such a wide orbit that i fear for the moon and our tides; am personally amazed that somehow people, post 1945, nuclear -wise, think usa is incapable of being aggressive; people i talk to would nuke them yesterday; usa controls UN; china ? please....

Edited August 1, 2017 by YetAnother