U.S. Ambassador to U.N. says time for China to act, Japan PM Abe speaks with Trump

[baboon]

1 minute ago, Fore Man said:

Why would you use a likeness of the rogue thugdom's flag as your avatar?  Your poor choice speaks volumes to me.  Perhaps there is more to your purpose than meets the eye...

You can rest assured there isn't, but I doubt you will believe that.

[Fore Man]

4 minutes ago, baboon said:

You can rest assured there isn't, but I doubt you will believe that.

OK, I can accept that...but it's still a weird way to represent oneself...a hated state that seems hell bent on ratcheting up nuclear tensions during an era when that is the very last thing the world needs.

 

It seems clear that Kim's goal is regime survival, but he's undertaking actions now that will surely prevent that from ever occurring.  When all the useless current multinational rhetoric stops, someone will feel threatened enough to unleash their dogs of war...and from that point on Northeast Asia followed by the entire planet and its inhabitants will surely become increasingly imperiled with a very nasty precedent set.

 

The way forward out of this mess is to cease all missile programs, agree with ROK to set up cross-border, cooperative industrial agreements and use those as stepping stones that could lead to widesweeping economic growth for the North.   This could well lead to market-driven consequences and bring about an ultimately peaceful reunification.  Instead all the world sees is continued belligerence and an apparent maniac at the helm of a badly failed state.   The way forward must be as apparent as the nose on his chubby face, yet he doggedly resists it. Truly sad if not tragic. 

 

Koreans are hard workers and one only has to view South Korea's amazing successes over the past several decades. I first traveled there in the late 1960s and kept returning over the years, and am awestruck by what this culture and its society has wrought. There's no reason at all why the North can't be equally successful.  Fomenting war is clearly not the right path forward. 

[baboon]

2 minutes ago, Fore Man said:

OK, I can accept that...but it's still a weird way to represent oneself...a hated state that seems hell bent on ratcheting up nuclear tensions during an era when that is the very last thing the world needs.

 

It seems clear that Kim's goal is regime survival, but he's undertaking actions now that will surely prevent that from ever occurring.  When all the useless current multinational rhetoric stops, someone will feel threatened enough to unleash their dogs of war...and from that point on Northeast Asia followed by the entire planet and its inhabitants will surely become increasingly imperiled with a very nasty precedent set.

 

The way forward out of this mess is to cease all missile programs, agree with ROK to set up cross-border, cooperative industrial agreements and use those as stepping stones that could lead to widesweeping economic growth for the North.   This could well lead to market-driven consequences and bring about an ultimately peaceful reunification.  Instead all the world sees is continued belligerence and an apparent maniac at the helm of a badly failed state.   The way forward must be as apparent as the nose on his chubby face, yet he doggedly resists it. Truly sad if not tragic. 

 

Koreans are hard workers and one only has to view South Korea's amazing successes over the past several decades. I first traveled there in the late 1960s and kept returning over the years, and am awestruck by what this culture and its society has wrought. There's no reason at all why the North can't be equally successful.  Fomenting war is clearly not the right path forward. 

Oh yes, I am fully aware that my point of view is not a popular one to say the least, but all I can do is call it as I see it.

 

As for the cross border, cooperative industrial agreements, we have seen them in the form of the Rason and Kaesong zones, as well as tourism at Mt Kumgang. Alas, many of the investors seem to either fall foul of the DPRK authorities or international sanctions...

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, baboon said:

Why? They aren't breaking any laws. Who are we to tell other countries what weapons they can or can't have?

I think it depends on risk.

 

Are these people rational or insane?

 

Do you want to wait to find out?

 

I'm a bleeding heart liberal ( I'm told) but I'm also from Yorkshire AND half Scottish.

 

Alternatve is to ask the man to meet me for a few pints!

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, Fore Man said:

Why would you use a likeness of the rogue thugdom's flag as your avatar?  Your poor choice speaks volumes to me.  Perhaps there is more to your purpose than meets the eye...

Thanks for introducing me "thugdom". I've never seen that word before.

[baboon]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

I think it depends on risk.

 

Are these people rational or insane?

 

Do you want to wait to find out?

 

I'm a bleeding heart liberal ( I'm told) but I'm also from Yorkshire AND half Scottish.

 

Alternatve is to ask the man to meet me for a few pints!

Aye, well.. The beer is canny good there...

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Fore Man said:

OK, I can accept that...but it's still a weird way to represent oneself...a hated state that seems hell bent on ratcheting up nuclear tensions during an era when that is the very last thing the world needs.

 

It seems clear that Kim's goal is regime survival, but he's undertaking actions now that will surely prevent that from ever occurring.  When all the useless current multinational rhetoric stops, someone will feel threatened enough to unleash their dogs of war...and from that point on Northeast Asia followed by the entire planet and its inhabitants will surely become increasingly imperiled with a very nasty precedent set.

 

The way forward out of this mess is to cease all missile programs, agree with ROK to set up cross-border, cooperative industrial agreements and use those as stepping stones that could lead to widesweeping economic growth for the North.   This could well lead to market-driven consequences and bring about an ultimately peaceful reunification.  Instead all the world sees is continued belligerence and an apparent maniac at the helm of a badly failed state.   The way forward must be as apparent as the nose on his chubby face, yet he doggedly resists it. Truly sad if not tragic. 

 

Koreans are hard workers and one only has to view South Korea's amazing successes over the past several decades. I first traveled there in the late 1960s and kept returning over the years, and am awestruck by what this culture and its society has wrought. There's no reason at all why the North can't be equally successful.  Fomenting war is clearly not the right path forward. 

I agree with much that you say

 

Iran and NK have the right to have whatever they wish to defend themselves

 

I also note what happened in Libya and Iraq

 

I do believe Kim just wants to be left alone to run his rather awful country as he sees fit.

 

But. 

 

Does se he really need ICBMs?

 

How far Should tests be allowed? Drop an unarmed ICBM into San Francisco Bay? I don't think so

 

No, IMO it's gone far enough and a short sharp punishment strike IS appropriate.

[baboon]

22 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I agree with much that you say

 

Iran and NK have the right to have whatever they wish to defend themselves

 

I also note what happened in Libya and Iraq

 

I do believe Kim just wants to be left alone to run his rather awful country as he sees fit.

 

But. 

 

Does se he really need ICBMs?

 

How far Should tests be allowed? Drop an unarmed ICBM into San Francisco Bay? I don't think so

 

No, IMO it's gone far enough and a short sharp punishment strike IS appropriate.

Maybe you don't need that 200 Baht in your pocket, but if I am the one who decides that and take it from you against your will, that makes me a thief, a mugger.

 

What if they wish to sell missiles or technology abroad? Nothing illegal about that:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/12/world/threats-responses-war-materiel-reluctant-us-gives-assent-for-missiles-go-yemen.html

[craigt3365]

14 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

What's really too funny is the kind if bigotry you use to impeach an author's thesis. Since you don't seem to have the wherewithal in reason or evidence to attack his argument, you resort to attack him on the basis of his nationality.  Do you think all Russian academics are Putin mini-me's? The guy is a professor at Kookmin University in Seoul South Korea, not Moscow University.  And he's not writing for Izvestia, he's writing for Foreign Policy magazine which is the epitome of a US establishment journal. They do allow for a range of opinions. but they are not the leftwing or pro-Russian equivalent of Breitbart.

 

And no, North Korea is not a failed state. The hallmark of failed states is that they lack order.  Whatever else, North Korea lacks, it isn't that. Rather the reverse. There is a brutally efficient and well functioning system in place to keep order. And no matter how badly NK performs by all sorts of economic and human rights measurements, it hasn't failed the Kims, who live in luxury and still exercise despotic and dynastic control. And that, as the author's thesis runs, is what the Kim dynasty has been fighting to maintain.

OK.  I'll accept the criticism regarding the author.  But I did do some research on him.  And it is an opinion piece.  I'm skeptical of most opinion pieces.

 

As for a failed state, NK is not in good shape.  As we all know.  It's ranked #30 out of 178 countries in the Fragile State Index.  Right near the bottom.  10 years ago, it was 13th from the bottom.

http://fundforpeace.org/fsi/2017/05/14/fragile-states-index-2017-annual-report/

 

The report from Amnesty International is damning.  And for good reasons.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/north-korea/

Quote

Citizens of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (North Korea) continued to suffer violations of most aspects of their human rights. North Koreans and foreign nationals were arbitrarily detained and sentenced after unfair trials for criminal “offences” that were not internationally recognized. Severe restrictions on the right to freedom of expression continued. Thousands of North Koreans were sent by the authorities to work abroad, often under harsh conditions. The number of North Koreans fleeing their country and arriving in the Republic of Korea (South Korea) increased.

 

And from them, a damning report about their human rights atrocities.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2014/03/time-for-world-to-work-together-over-north-korea-atrocities/

Quote

However, it’s doubtful such support includes the hundreds of thousands of people – including children – that languish in political prison camps and other detention facilities. Or those that have been the victims of crimes against humanity as documented in a chilling U.N. report made public last month. Indeed, the U.N. Commission of Inquiry report was unprecedented, stating: “The gravity, scale and nature of these violations…does not have any parallel in the contemporary world.”

 

Again, amazing you guys support this country so hard.  Amazing.  You focus on the Kims.  Despots who brutalize their people.  That's not where the focus should be.  If the people are failed, then NK is a failed state.  As shown by the above reports.

[craigt3365]

14 hours ago, baboon said:

You know the conversation has reached the end of the road when your interlocutor trundles out sentences like "If you like NK so much, why don't you move there! LOL". It's the same as 'If you don't like it, leave' on the Thailand news forum. Pity...

I'll accept that criticism.  I should have worded it better.  But the question stands.  You've got NK's flag as your avatar.  You defend it massively.  Why?  Have you visited NK?  Are you from there?

 

P.S. I never said to leave, just asked why you don't move there.  Huge difference.

[craigt3365]

10 hours ago, baboon said:

Maybe you don't need that 200 Baht in your pocket, but if I am the one who decides that and take it from you against your will, that makes me a thief, a mugger.

 

What if they wish to sell missiles or technology abroad? Nothing illegal about that:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/12/world/threats-responses-war-materiel-reluctant-us-gives-assent-for-missiles-go-yemen.html

Actually, it's a violation of UN resolutions.  Even NK's #1 partner agrees with this.  Sadly, China seems unable to do much more than just talk.

 

http://www.nti.org/learn/countries/north-korea/

Quote

 

Even China, a traditional ally of the regime, endorsed a UN resolution to apply further sanctions against North Korea. [16]

 

The test drew a sharp rebuke from members of the summit and from China who stated that the test damaged the peace and stability on the Korean Peninsula. [64]

 

It's the entire world condemning NK and their actions.  Sadly, a few seem to support them.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_Security_Council_resolutions_concerning_North_Korea

 

The security council, as you know, is made up of Russia, China, US, France and the UK, with other rotating countries.  They don't vote unanimously on things like this unless there's a good reason.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1718

Quote

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1718 was adopted unanimously by the United Nations Security Council on October 14, 2006. The resolution, passed under Chapter VII, Article 41,^[1] of the UN Charter, imposes a series of economic and commercial sanctions on the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (the DPRK, or North Korea) in the aftermath of that nation's claimed nuclear test of October 9, 2006.^[2][1]

 

[ilostmypassword]

30 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

OK.  I'll accept the criticism regarding the author.  But I did do some research on him.  And it is an opinion piece.  I'm skeptical of most opinion pieces.

 

As for a failed state, NK is not in good shape.  As we all know.  It's ranked #30 out of 178 countries in the Fragile State Index.  Right near the bottom.  10 years ago, it was 13th from the bottom.

http://fundforpeace.org/fsi/2017/05/14/fragile-states-index-2017-annual-report/

 

The report from Amnesty International is damning.  And for good reasons.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/north-korea/

 

And from them, a damning report about their human rights atrocities.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2014/03/time-for-world-to-work-together-over-north-korea-atrocities/

 

Again, amazing you guys support this country so hard.  Amazing.  You focus on the Kims.  Despots who brutalize their people.  That's not where the focus should be.  If the people are failed, then NK is a failed state.  As shown by the above reports.

Are you being purposely obtuse?  I am not supporting the Kims. Just pointing out that their is a method to what looks to some like madness and it has kept them in power. And for them, that is everything.

[craigt3365]

10 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Are you being purposely obtuse?  I am not supporting the Kims. Just pointing out that their is a method to what looks to some like madness and it has kept them in power. And for them, that is everything.

100% understood.  But what they are doing to keep themselves in power, to many of us, is pure madness.  Insanity at it's worst when your citizens suffer like those in NK do.  Sorry, but no other way to spin this.  You could say the same thing about Hitler, Mao, Stalin, etc.  All mass murders who did whatever it took to stay in power.  We're better off without leaders like this.

[ilostmypassword]

5 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

100% understood.  But what they are doing to keep themselves in power, to many of us, is pure madness.  Insanity at it's worst when your citizens suffer like those in NK do.  Sorry, but no other way to spin this.  You could say the same thing about Hitler, Mao, Stalin, etc.  All mass murders who did whatever it took to stay in power.  We're better off without leaders like this.

It may be that kind of madness but is it a threat to the rest of the world?

[craigt3365]

Just now, ilostmypassword said:

It may be that kind of madness but is it a threat to the rest of the world?

Yes.  They are counterfeiting drugs, money, hacking other nations computers for profit, selling off citizens to other countries for hard labor, and of course, developing a nuclear weapon that threatens many other countries.  With a nut job holding the trigger.

 

So yes, I would say that's a threat.  Luckily, organizations like the UN Security Council agree.  Thus, the resolutions and sanctions.

[Fore Man]

15 hours ago, baboon said:

Oh yes, I am fully aware that my point of view is not a popular one to say the least, but all I can do is call it as I see it.

 

As for the cross border, cooperative industrial agreements, we have seen them in the form of the Rason and Kaesong zones, as well as tourism at Mt Kumgang. Alas, many of the investors seem to either fall foul of the DPRK authorities or international sanctions...

Good points, baboon.  They need to create a better cooperative model and indeed, nK needs to quit sabotaging any gains realized from these budding working relationships. The same collaborative mechanisms need to occur across the other border with China as well.  There are decades of distrust and pent-up hostility involved and it won't be easy, but there has to be a mutual, sincere willingness to try.  Other than a revolution from within, I just cannot see any other method that would ease tensions and get nK off of its belligerent mindset.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Fore Man
Typo

[ilostmypassword]

18 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Yes.  They are counterfeiting drugs, money, hacking other nations computers for profit, selling off citizens to other countries for hard labor, and of course, developing a nuclear weapon that threatens many other countries.  With a nut job holding the trigger.

 

So yes, I would say that's a threat.  Luckily, organizations like the UN Security Council agree.  Thus, the resolutions and sanctions.

But not an existential threat unless the ruling oligarchy feels it's facing death or worse.

[craigt3365]

5 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

But not an existential threat unless the ruling oligarchy feels it's facing death or worse.

I don't understand.  You asked if they were a world threat.  I showed why.  You were talking about a world threat, not a threat internal to NK?

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, craigt3365 said:

I don't understand.  You asked if they were a world threat.  I showed why.  You were talking about a world threat, not a threat internal to NK?

Because there are lots of nations that can be reckoned to pose threats.  The question is whether or not they are existential threats to the world at large.

[craigt3365]

17 minutes ago, Fore Man said:

Good points, baboon.  They need to create a better cooperative model and indeed, nK needs to quit sabotaging any gains realized from these budding working relationships. The same collaborative mechanisms need to occur across the other border with China as well.  There are decades of distrust and pent-up hostility involved and it won't be easy, but there has to be a mutual, sincere willingness to try.  Other than a revolution from within, I just cannot see any other method that would ease tensions and get nK off of its belligerent mindset.

I just read this article.  Interesting to read about NK's negotiating tactics.  I'd hate to have to be part of that with them.

 

http://foreignpolicy.com/2006/12/26/failure-in-the-six-party-talks-was-inevitable/

Quote

Make outlandish demands. Appear unyielding. Threaten to bolt at the slightest provocation…escalating a mood of crisis, demanding last-minute concessions and unilaterally reinterpreting past accords…”They basically demand everything but the kitchen sink, and they are not offering much in return so far,” Snyder said. “It helps to shape the field of negotiation to their advantage.”…”Nobody has ever effectively countered their negotiating style. That’s why we’re in the mess we’re in,” said Ralph A. Cossa, head of the Honolulu-based Pacific Forum of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a policy institute.”

 

[craigt3365]

Just now, ilostmypassword said:

Because there are lots of nations that can be reckoned to pose threats.  The question is whether or not they are existential threats to the world at large.

Counterfeiting money and drugs is a threat to the world.  As is hacking other nations computers for profit.  Not sure why you don't see that.

[ilostmypassword]

14 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Counterfeiting money and drugs is a threat to the world.  As is hacking other nations computers for profit.  Not sure why you don't see that.

Pretty sure you understand the difference between "threat" and "existential threat."

[craigt3365]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

It may be that kind of madness but is it a threat to the rest of the world?

I'll reply again.  No mention of existential threat here.  But to answer your question again, yes, they are a threat to the rest of the world. 

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, craigt3365 said:

I'll reply again.  No mention of existential threat here.  But to answer your question again, yes, they are a threat to the rest of the world. 

Big enough to put millions of lives at risk? I doubt the South Koreans would agree with that.

[craigt3365]

2 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Big enough to put millions of lives at risk? I doubt the South Koreans would agree with that.

You still didn't answer the question...The rest of the world isn't just SK.

[ilostmypassword]

27 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

You still didn't answer the question...The rest of the world isn't just SK.

But how big a threat is North Korea to the rest of the world?  As big as Saudi Arabia? As big as Russia. Will their counterfeiting or amphetamine manufacturing result in revolution and mass death? They're a small threat with limited power to do damage to the world at large.

Edit: I should have added unless drastic action is taken against them that threatens Kim and company's survival.

Edited August 1, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[baboon]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

Because there are lots of nations that can be reckoned to pose threats.  The question is whether or not they are existential threats to the world at large.

Any country with an army, in fact.

How many newspapers are writing about the US being a threat to world peace? Quite a few I imagine, rightly or wrongly...

[baboon]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

Counterfeiting money and drugs is a threat to the world.  As is hacking other nations computers for profit.  Not sure why you don't see that.

No it isn't. It's a nuisance. 

[craigt3365]

6 minutes ago, baboon said:

No it isn't. It's a nuisance. 

But people die due to fake drugs.  Not to mention the thousands he's put into forced labor.  You're OK with these things?  I sure hope not.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/10766587/North-Korea-branches-out-into-ivory-fake-cigarette-and-pharmaceutical-trade.html

 

Quote

 

North Korea branches out into ivory, fake cigarette and pharmaceutical trade

Pyongyang diversifying from manufacturing drugs and counterfeiting foreign currency in order to fund its nuclear and missile programmes

North Korean officials were caught in 2004 smuggling 150,000 tablets of the sedative Clonazepam in Egypt, while embassy employees from Bulgaria were detained in Turkey carrying half a million tablets of the synthetic stimulant Captagon, with an estimated value of $7 million.

 

North Korea has also been accused of manufacturing fake Viagra pills.

 

 

These things kill innocent people.  So for them, it's far from being just a nuisance.

[ilostmypassword]

2 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

But people die due to fake drugs.  Not to mention the thousands he's put into forced labor.  You're OK with these things?  I sure hope not.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/10766587/North-Korea-branches-out-into-ivory-fake-cigarette-and-pharmaceutical-trade.html

 

 

These things kill innocent people.  So for them, it's far from being just a nuisance.

You keep on getting it wrong. Yes, these are bad things. But are they a serious threat to the world?