Article 44 order for water agencies

[webfact]

Article 44 order for water agencies

By THE NATION

 

 

BANGKOK: -- THE NATIONAL Council for Peace and Order (NCPO) is preparing to invoke special powers under Article 44 of the interim charter to put all water-related agencies under the supervision of one new organisation.

Assistant government Spokesman Colonel Atisit Chaiyanuwat said yesterday that the new organisation would be called the “National Office of Water Resources” and would work under the Office of the Prime Minister. 

 

“The move aims at boosting the efficiency of water management and providing solutions to water-related problems,” he said. “The order to integrate water-management agencies will be issued under the Article 44.” 

 

Atisit disclosed the plan after an NCPO meeting. 

 

 

Article 44 gives General Prayut Chan-o-cha, who is both NCPO chief and prime minister, near absolute powers. 

 

Prayut also said that HM King Maha Vajiralongkorn had expressed concerns for people in flood-hit areas after listening to reports about the situation. 

 

“His Majesty has suggested that sustainable solutions to each area be introduced first if it is not possible to tackle the whole system at once,” Prayut said. 

 

Since July 5, floods have ravaged 44 provinces causing both casualties and property damage. As of press time, flooding was still a problem in 10 provinces. 

 

Hydro and Agro Informatics Institute’s adviser Royol Chitradon said the integration of water-management projects and the sharing of budgets and resources could be useful. 

 

However, he said he did not think all 35 water-related agencies could be put under the same agency. 

 

Royol said that apart from the Royal Irrigation Department, which was directly involved in water management, there were also agencies such as the Electricity Generating Authority of Thailand, which managed hydroelectric dams and waterworks authorities. 

 

“Wastewater and water pollution are also related to water. This means the Natural Resource and Environment Ministry and the Science Ministry also have water-related missions,” he said. “I don’t think the relevant agencies will be merged.” 

 

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30323244

 

-- © Copyright The Nation 2017-08-09

[BasalBanality]

12 minutes ago, webfact said:

However, he said he did not think all 35 water-related agencies could be put under the same agency.

Yet another pointless exercise?

[Cadbury]

 

1 hour ago, webfact said:

“National Office of Water Resources” and would work under the Office of the Prime Minister

Ah! Good old Article 44 to the rescue again. There is nothing in Thailand that Prayut Chan-o-cha cannot manage single-handedly....including the rain. 

Seems he plans to put all water-related agencies under his own supervision. However Hydro and Agro Informatics Institute’s adviser Royol Chitradon appears to disagree with the Great Master.

Royol said at his own personal peril that "he did not think all 35 water-related agencies could be put under the same agency".  I can see a tour of latrine duty and dixie bashing coming up for Royol.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Cadbury

[Chris Lawrence]

Article 44 would merge the agencies.

 

Then let the Chinese work the problem out if the do the Panama Canal through Thailand.

 

Malaysia worked out their problem a few years back, but do Thai's have good dialogue with their neighbours? They are the ones to seek advice from or the contractors.

 

The water problem starts in the north and flows down to Bangkok. It all needs to be done with dams in the north for dry season. 

[Moonlover]

25 minutes ago, Chris Lawrence said:

The water problem starts in the north and flows down to Bangkok. It all needs to be done with dams in the north for dry season. 

Thailand already has over 40 dams, which is a remarkable number for a country that is, generally  so flat. It is far too simplistic an approach to simply say 'build more dams'.

 

Besides which, dams do not prevent flooding, they only delay it. Once a reservoir is full, there's only one way the water is going to go and that's downhill!

 

Thailand is at the mercy of its topography and its location within a monsoon region and unfortunately, flooding is inevitable. Dams or no dams.

 

 

[mtls2005]

Article 44 makes 'governing' a bit like running the Army. Just issue orders.

 

 

[lvr181]

1 hour ago, mtls2005 said:

Article 44 makes 'governing' a bit like running the Army. Just issue orders.

 

 

You're quick  

 

Just a little joke 

[Eric Loh]

2 hours ago, Moonlover said:

Thailand already has over 40 dams, which is a remarkable number for a country that is, generally  so flat. It is far too simplistic an approach to simply say 'build more dams'.

 

Besides which, dams do not prevent flooding, they only delay it. Once a reservoir is full, there's only one way the water is going to go and that's downhill!

 

Thailand is at the mercy of its topography and its location within a monsoon region and unfortunately, flooding is inevitable. Dams or no dams.

 

 

That's so true referring to the topography. The elevation within the Chao Phraya Basin actually decrease as the rivers flow southwards. Lets not forget that rapid urbanization, growth of provincial cities, intensification of agriculture, new roads, industrial estates built on agriculture land etc create bottlenecks for drainage. Most flood control measures to mitigate flood hazards do not follow sound engineering practices or even without proper maintenance programmes. Issuing 44 to consolidate the water agencies is just knee jerk reaction, poorly thought out and unlikely to solve the flood problems. Flood is a natural phenomenon in Thailand.

[BasalBanality]

2 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

That's so true referring to the topography. The elevation within the Chao Phraya Basin actually decrease as the rivers flow southwards. Lets not forget that rapid urbanization, growth of provincial cities, intensification of agriculture, new roads, industrial estates built on agriculture land etc create bottlenecks for drainage. Most flood control measures to mitigate flood hazards do not follow sound engineering practices or even without proper maintenance programmes. Issuing 44 to consolidate the water agencies is just knee jerk reaction, poorly thought out and unlikely to solve the flood problems. Flood is a natural phenomenon in Thailand.

Ground subsidence has yet to be or being denied as an issue for those with vested interest, more hilarity to ensue in the near term.

[Moonlover]

1 minute ago, BasalBanality said:

Ground subsidence has yet to be or being denied as an issue for those with vested interest, more hilarity to ensue in the near term.

Yes. Not relevant to the current flooding, but Bangkok is sinking under its own weight! And for a city that is less than 2 meters above mean sea level and factor in rising sea levels, its prospects seem somewhat bleak.

[robblok]

2 hours ago, Moonlover said:

Thailand already has over 40 dams, which is a remarkable number for a country that is, generally  so flat. It is far too simplistic an approach to simply say 'build more dams'.

 

Besides which, dams do not prevent flooding, they only delay it. Once a reservoir is full, there's only one way the water is going to go and that's downhill!

 

Thailand is at the mercy of its topography and its location within a monsoon region and unfortunately, flooding is inevitable. Dams or no dams.

 

 

It kinda depends how big the dam is, problem is of course to get the lad for it as it would mean people relocating. If you can catch enough water and release it slow enough Thailand would have no flooding problems. There will of course always be flash floods and minor flooding of people who build to close to the rive at low area's. But not large area's like now. 

[robblok]

13 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

That's so true referring to the topography. The elevation within the Chao Phraya Basin actually decrease as the rivers flow southwards. Lets not forget that rapid urbanization, growth of provincial cities, intensification of agriculture, new roads, industrial estates built on agriculture land etc create bottlenecks for drainage. Most flood control measures to mitigate flood hazards do not follow sound engineering practices or even without proper maintenance programmes. Issuing 44 to consolidate the water agencies is just knee jerk reaction, poorly thought out and unlikely to solve the flood problems. Flood is a natural phenomenon in Thailand.

I don't think its a bad idea to group the organisations, because they all have budgets but they never want to spend those budgets.. its better if they let others spend their budgets on it. There is rivalry for sure.. if its one big organisation with one big budget then at least you cut down on the rivalry.

 

That is not to say that there won't be problems integrating organisations is always hard and people will fight hard for their jobs. Because I am quite sure that there is some redundancy too. 

 

 

[BasalBanality]

4 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Yes. Not relevant to the current flooding, but Bangkok is sinking under its own weight! And for a city that is less than 2 meters above mean sea level and factor in rising sea levels, its prospects seem somewhat bleak.

I'd think the flood waters in nature replenishes the water table, preventing subsidence. The decades long mismanagement of the central floodplain is of relevance to all water resource mismanagement upstream.

[Moonlover]

21 minutes ago, robblok said:

It kinda depends how big the dam is, problem is of course to get the lad for it as it would mean people relocating. If you can catch enough water and release it slow enough Thailand would have no flooding problems. There will of course always be flash floods and minor flooding of people who build to close to the rive at low area's. But not large area's like now. 

Building big dams in low lying terrain is not an option, No matter how ambitious one is!

[Eric Loh]

14 minutes ago, robblok said:

I don't think its a bad idea to group the organisations, because they all have budgets but they never want to spend those budgets.. its better if they let others spend their budgets on it. There is rivalry for sure.. if its one big organisation with one big budget then at least you cut down on the rivalry.

 

That is not to say that there won't be problems integrating organisations is always hard and people will fight hard for their jobs. Because I am quite sure that there is some redundancy too. 

 

 

Still not convince that centralization for the agencies in this respect is a good thing. Flooding problems are best addressed by the local agencies promptly who can react and make decision while centralization can't adapt to the fast changing situation and the delay in decision making will aggravate the problems. Taking away lack of participation and involvement in decision making will create a moral issue and can result in a lackadaisical behaviour of their subordinates. Mentality of a military government is centralization to command and control. Fine if this is a military organization which is a tall hierarchical organisation but not a rather flat structure of the water agencies.

[Moonlover]

28 minutes ago, BasalBanality said:

I'd think the flood waters in nature replenishes the water table, preventing subsidence. The decades long mismanagement of the central floodplain is of relevance to all water resource mismanagement upstream.

So, Thailand need to have floods to replenish the ground water. Just stop and think about that for a moment!

[hansnl]

4 hours ago, Chris Lawrence said:

Article 44 would merge the agencies.

 

Then let the Chinese work the problem out if the do the Panama Canal through Thailand.

 

Malaysia worked out their problem a few years back, but do Thai's have good dialogue with their neighbours? They are the ones to seek advice from or the contractors.

 

The water problem starts in the north and flows down to Bangkok. It all needs to be done with dams in the north for dry season. 

Dams for the dry season?

Really?

I think overflow areas, basins, river expansion slots and more of those solutions will help more in the rainy season.

However, the biggest problem is the simple fact the ground doesn't hold water enough because of deforestation.

Planting of millions of trees might help.

Edited August 9, 2017 by hansnl

[BasalBanality]

8 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

So, Thailand need to have floods to replenish the ground water. Just stop and think about that for a moment!

Rather elementary isn't it?

 

http://www.salon.com/2017/02/22/california-farmers-use-floodwater-to-replenish-aquifers_partner/

Quote

Groundwater recharging can reduce flood risks, boost water storage and alleviate the sinking of lands that often follows heavy groundwater pumping.

 

Edited August 9, 2017 by BasalBanality

[inThailand]

More useful to use A44 to disband all 35 agencies and put them all to work filling sandbags or pumping water from flooded areas. And then move them to the most coveted goverment position...an inactive post.

[robblok]

22 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Building big dams in low lying terrain is not an option, No matter how ambitious one is!

Of course there need to be some hils or man made structure on the sides or otherwise it would be a stupid thing to do. 

[robblok]

21 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Still not convince that centralization for the agencies in this respect is a good thing. Flooding problems are best addressed by the local agencies promptly who can react and make decision while centralization can't adapt to the fast changing situation and the delay in decision making will aggravate the problems. Taking away lack of participation and involvement in decision making will create a moral issue and can result in a lackadaisical behaviour of their subordinates. Mentality of a military government is centralization to command and control. Fine if this is a military organization which is a tall hierarchical organisation but not a rather flat structure of the water agencies.

I can agree with what your saying, because it does make sense. However when you got many organisations that are responsible with their own budget (they all want to spend as least as possible and blame others when things go wrong) things can go wrong too. I do believe like you that people in the area would know more then those in BKK. I think the problem is just two sided... those local organisations not wanting to spend their money (skimming money) and blaming others (same goes for the bigger organisations). Now they can really play the blame game.

 

Also I do believe there will be a lot of redundancy here. To be honest I am not sure how to really solve this. You like me have probably seen how local people just care about the money they get and are reluctant to spend it (that is why I am for elected local people). Too much money got diverted and too many inept people are in charge.

 

 

[Chris Lawrence]

8 hours ago, Moonlover said:

Thailand already has over 40 dams, which is a remarkable number for a country that is, generally  so flat. It is far too simplistic an approach to simply say 'build more dams'.

 

Besides which, dams do not prevent flooding, they only delay it. Once a reservoir is full, there's only one way the water is going to go and that's downhill!

 

Thailand is at the mercy of its topography and its location within a monsoon region and unfortunately, flooding is inevitable. Dams or no dams.

 

 

So you say that with Malaysia in mind? Wasn't their problem similar?

 

To say its inevitable is just dogma. 

 

There is a solution to the problem. Dams may be one, but there are others.

 

"In addition to helping farmers, dams help prevent the loss of life and property caused by flooding. Flood control dams impound floodwaters and then either release them under control to the river below the dam or store or divert the water for other uses." There goes your dam argument. There is more on the internet.

[Chris Lawrence]

Moonie have a look below:

 

"There are 2,250 dams, weirs, catchments, and barrages in New South Wales.^[2] Of these, 135 facilities are considered major dams according to the Australian National Committee on Large Dams"

 

New South Wales population will reach 7.77 million by the end of June of 2017.

 

Again blows your argument out of the water.

 

Wikipedia only lists 21 dams in Thailand.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Chris Lawrence

[Chris Lawrence]

5 hours ago, hansnl said:

Dams for the dry season?

Really?

I think overflow areas, basins, river expansion slots and more of those solutions will help more in the rainy season.

However, the biggest problem is the simple fact the ground doesn't hold water enough because of deforestation.

Planting of millions of trees might help.

Haven't you ever saved for a rainy day. Its about insuring water is stored and used in the dry season. Have you ever been to the northern areas of Thailand?

 

Have a read of this article. Its base is in ecotourism but there are notable mentions of how dams contribute to re-forestation.

 

http://www.ccsenet.org/journal/index.php/ach/article/viewFile/36531/21329

 

But hop on the net and you will see how proper water management can assist. If you go thru my posts in about 2007 I think there is a reference to Water Mitigation program developed by a Thai Professor. May help you to understand the problem.

[Moonlover]

Since the mid 1960s, Thailand has constructed more than forty major dams for power generation and irrigation, resulting in significant opposition amongst rural communities. Source:

 

https://www.internationalrivers.org/campaigns/thailand

 

Seasonal heavy continuous rains in Malaysia from 26 December 2016 caused flooding in two states: Kelantan and Terengganu. The floods temporarily displaced about 25,000 people and have rendered some villages inaccessible due to damaged bridges and blocked roads. (IFRC, 5 Jan 2017)

 

Rains after 23 January 2017 caused flooding in six states: Johor, Kelantan, Pahang, Perak, Selangor and Sabah. The worst-hit states wereJohor and Pahang, where waters rose 1.5 metres in certain areas. The total number of affected people was 14,903 as of 27 January. (IFRC, 27 Jan 2017). Source:

 

http://reliefweb.int/disaster/fl-2017-000002-mys

 

 

[Chris Lawrence]

30 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Since the mid 1960s, Thailand has constructed more than forty major dams for power generation and irrigation, resulting in significant opposition amongst rural communities. Source:

 

https://www.internationalrivers.org/campaigns/thailand

 

Seasonal heavy continuous rains in Malaysia from 26 December 2016 caused flooding in two states: Kelantan and Terengganu. The floods temporarily displaced about 25,000 people and have rendered some villages inaccessible due to damaged bridges and blocked roads. (IFRC, 5 Jan 2017)

 

Rains after 23 January 2017 caused flooding in six states: Johor, Kelantan, Pahang, Perak, Selangor and Sabah. The worst-hit states wereJohor and Pahang, where waters rose 1.5 metres in certain areas. The total number of affected people was 14,903 as of 27 January. (IFRC, 27 Jan 2017). Source:

 

http://reliefweb.int/disaster/fl-2017-000002-mys

 

 

Haven't seen you before Moony, but good references. Most people say things off the top of their heads. Wikipedia only had about 21 major dams listed?

[wakeupplease]

12 hours ago, Moonlover said:

Thailand already has over 40 dams, which is a remarkable number for a country that is, generally  so flat. It is far too simplistic an approach to simply say 'build more dams'.

 

Besides which, dams do not prevent flooding, they only delay it. Once a reservoir is full, there's only one way the water is going to go and that's downhill!

 

Thailand is at the mercy of its topography and its location within a monsoon region and unfortunately, flooding is inevitable. Dams or no dams.

 

 

There is so much unused land you could build another 40 dams and then channel it to the areas that need it in the dry season very easy. As the land is so flat its not too much work to move it is it.

[Srikcir]

20 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

Taking away lack of participation and involvement in decision making will create a moral issue and can result in a lackadaisical behaviour of their subordinates.

That can be resolved with delegation of authority. Something the military is very familiar with in chain of  command. But the "lackadaisical behaviour" is something more of a national trait, perhaps instilled by decades of autocratic governance.

[Srikcir]

On 8/9/2017 at 5:35 AM, webfact said:

invoke special powers under Article 44 of the interim charter to put all water-related agencies under the supervision of one new organisation.

Once again Prayut favors a "super committee" to execute national policy. He surely loves the politburo model of government.

 

But why invoke Article 44?

All the relevant organizations are either governmental or quasi-governmental agencies. Why not use the normal legislative process which the NCPO controls to do the consolidation? But to do so would mandate a minimal degree of study of the challenges such as identifying a national agenda, organizational effectiveness and resource allocation. That translates to a modicum of time, public participation, scientific data collection and correlation - aspects for which Prayut seems to have little tolerance when it comes to saving the reputation of the junta.

[lvr181]

23 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

Still not convince that centralization for the agencies in this respect is a good thing. Flooding problems are best addressed by the local agencies promptly who can react and make decision while centralization can't adapt to the fast changing situation and the delay in decision making will aggravate the problems. Taking away lack of participation and involvement in decision making will create a moral issue and can result in a lackadaisical behaviour of their subordinates. Mentality of a military government is centralization to command and control. Fine if this is a military organization which is a tall hierarchical organisation but not a rather flat structure of the water agencies.

I agree with many of your points BUT the current system is not working therefore there is an immediate need for change. I am not an expert on water management so I can not suggest a viable alternative.