High-speed railway project: China's loan terms rejected

[Dave67]

7 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

one other aspect of high speed rail is the maintenenance.

 

china has a veritable army of workers that climb the poles

and check the high tension wires, and walk the entire track

each and every day.....at least once. 

will the same standards be maintained here?

 

 

I'd be interested to know where you are getting your information from. You seem to be surprised about a standard practice and suggest the OCS inspectors "Climb Poles" which would mean all power would have to be turned off.

[Jonah Tenner]

On 14.8.2017 at 2:39 AM, Ricardo said:

That's actually the first time I've seen any mention, that the Chinese-Thailand medium-speed heavy-freight railway might also carry  international-passengers, if indeed that's what the Minister intended to convey ? Rather than just domestic-passengers to/from Isaan.

 

Won't this be competing with a rapidly-growing charter-airline industry, which can transfer smaller groups (150-200 pax at-a-time) from many points in China, to several points within Thailand ?  Not sure whether that would work ?

For goods and tourists, read tanks and soldiers....

The strategic and tactical military uses for a railway like this should not be underestimated.

[Justgrazing]

13 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

one other aspect of high speed rail is the maintenenance.

 

china has a veritable army of workers that climb the poles

and check the high tension wires, and walk the entire track

each and every day.....at least once. 

will the same standards be maintained here?

 

 

The photo is of a fairly typical overhead power arrangement for a H S T .. The power rating for European H S T networks like T G V , Eurostar etc is a 25kv system ( 25000 ) .. You can't really have people " climbing poles " in close proximity to that sort of tension .. The whole point of these gantries is to simplify inspection / maintenance in service .. The cables that carry the power are suspended beneath the gantries with the pantograph on the top of the train in contact with the cables to transmit the power down to the motive unit or Locomotive as they used to be known .. Not that ' that matters as the Bangkok to Nk Ratch section of whatever's been proposed is not a high speed line with speeds of 180 kph ' that is just a fast train ..  true high speed is 250 kph + with the networks named above reaching 300 kph which is fast .. 

[ChouDoufu]

12 hours ago, Dave67 said:

I'd be interested to know where you are getting your information from. You seem to be surprised about a standard practice and suggest the OCS inspectors "Climb Poles" which would mean all power would have to be turned off.

from high-speed rail documentary on the chinese teevee.

 

voiceover by engineer explaining the daily maintenance schedule

with video showing groups of workers walking the track

sections, then workers climbing masts to check and

adjust cables.  perhaps the accompanying video was

not 100% related to the voiceover.

 

if this is the required maintenance on chinese lines, was

wondering who would perform the daily tasks?  thai or lao

workers, or chinese workers with new 4-year visas?

 

not sure why turning off the power would be a problem,

but i'm not a railroad engineer.  in hainan where i lived,

trains ran between 6 am and 9 pm, leaving many time

for maintenance operations.  can't speak for mainland,

and haven't checked the schedules, but was under

the impression high-speed generally didn't run after

midnight.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2017 by ChouDoufu

[Dave67]

2 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

from high-speed rail documentary on the chinese teevee.

 

voiceover by engineer explaining the daily maintenance schedule

with video showing groups of workers walking the track

sections, then workers climbing masts to check and

adjust cables.  perhaps the accompanying video was

not 100% related to the voiceover.

 

if this is the required maintenance on chinese lines, was

wondering who would perform the daily tasks?  thai or lao

workers, or chinese workers with new 4-year visas?

 

not sure why turning off the power would be a problem,

but i'm not a railroad engineer.  in hainan where i lived,

trains ran between 6 am and 9 pm, leaving many time

for maintenance operations.  can't speak for mainland,

and haven't checked the schedules, but was under

the impression high-speed generally didn't run after

midnight.

 

 

Fair enough Mate

I am  a"Railroad" engineer who worked on China high speed rail projects and it doesn't surprise me that they have to do maintenance every day , because the didn't take any notice of quality standard, Climbing up poles must be Chinese thing  if I told some told someone to climb up a poll they would the to F off

Edited August 20, 2017 by Dave67

[gk10002000]

So what exactly would China do if the loans are made and Thailand delays or doesn't make payments?  How and what Thai assets would they seize?  Would China move in and over run Thailand?  Seize land? 

[Briggsy]

18 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

So what exactly would China do if the loans are made and Thailand delays or doesn't make payments?  How and what Thai assets would they seize?  Would China move in and over run Thailand?  Seize land? 

One would imagine they would gain possession of the railway, the very important terminals at Laem Chabang, Nong Khai and Mapthaphut, the revenue, the land adjoining the railway and would be able to avoid scrutiny over what was being moved and the whole thing would be run by Chinese nationals if what happened in Sri Lanka is any guide.

 

So, you see, they would effectively gain full control of a key transport and distribution channel in a foreign country.

[Justgrazing]

23 hours ago, Ricardo said:

"could seize other assets of the Thai government if  ..."

 

Does anybody know exactly which Thai-government assets the Chinese-government has its eyes on, if the Thai government were to default on the loan(s), which I currently understand (but I may be wrong) are proposed to be from Chinese-banks (aot the Chinese government itself), what might they be after ?

 

Are they talking oil/gas-rights, land-rights along the route, land for an isthmus-canal, or what ?

" Are you sure we can put one of those H S T things on this  "

[Ricardo]

2 hours ago, Briggsy said:

One would imagine they would gain possession of the railway, the very important terminals at Laem Chabang, Nong Khai and Mapthaphut, the revenue, the land adjoining the railway and would be able to avoid scrutiny over what was being moved and the whole thing would be run by Chinese nationals if what happened in Sri Lanka is any guide.

 

So, you see, they would effectively gain full control of a key transport and distribution channel in a foreign country.

 

I can see why the current government, or indeed any Thai government, would firmly reject any such conditions.

 

 

 

[Ricardo]

1 hour ago, Justgrazing said:

" Are you sure we can put one of those H S T things on this  "

 

Oh excellent picture !

 

Time for a caption-competition  ...

 

"Well, that's One way to ensure that the onboard-coffee is properly frapee  ... "

 

"Is this the line to Rock-and-Roll Heaven ?"

 

"Just Wait until we catch-up with the So-and-So who Nicked Our Engine !" 

 

"The Captain advises keeping your seat-belt fastened until your journey has ended"

[Dave67]

1 minute ago, Ricardo said:

 

Oh excellent picture !

 

Time for a caption-competition  ...

 

"Well, that's One way to ensure that the onboard-coffee is properly frapee  ... "

 

"Is this the line to Rock-and-Roll Heaven ?"

 

"Just Wait until we catch-up with the So-and-So who Nicked Our Engine !" 

 

"The Captain advises keeping your seat-belt fastened until your journey has ended"

P-,man at opening of double high, high, high, high speed railway, quality hub, crackdown

[Dave67]

1 hour ago, Justgrazing said:

" Are you sure we can put one of those H S T things on this  "

Thai engineers demo track "We don't need you China"

[Ricardo]

"Any slower, and you might as well get off & walk !"

 

"Third-class looked better than this, in the promotional-video !"

 

" No, no  ...  the man is supposed to walk in front of the train, carrying the red-flag, according to the safety-manual."

 

"I can't quite reach the overhead high-tension cable, from down here, luckily !"

 

"Negotiations have had their ups and downs !"

Edited August 20, 2017 by Ricardo

[Ricardo]

"Well it was definitely a straight line on the plans !"

 

"I suspect we may have a subsidence-problem !"

 

For our Aussie chums  ...  "She'll be right, mate !"

 

"But will Disneyland accept it, as being up-to-specification, and pay our invoice ?"

 

"OK, own-up then, who stole the tunnel ?"

Edited August 20, 2017 by Ricardo

[Justgrazing]

3 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

"Well it was definitely a straight line on the plans !"

 

"I suspect we may have a subsidence-problem !"

 

For our Aussie chums  ...  "She'll be right, mate !"

 

"OK, own-up then, who stole the tunnel ?"

Bloody French T G V don't have these problems .. 

[Ricardo]

1 hour ago, Justgrazing said:

 

"The hostess is taking forever, to bring me my airline-style packaged-meal !"

 

"The next station better come real-soon,  I need the loo, Urgently !"

 

From the back  ...  "Are We There Yet ?"

 

"I told you not to accept the lowest-bid, but did you listen to me, oh no !"

 

For music-hall fans  ...  "It's a Long Way   to Tipperaray !"

 

For Elvis fans  ...  "Uh-huh, I'm All Shook-Up !"

 

 

Edited August 20, 2017 by Ricardo

[Dave67]

3 hours ago, Briggsy said:

One would imagine they would gain possession of the railway, the very important terminals at Laem Chabang, Nong Khai and Mapthaphut, the revenue, the land adjoining the railway and would be able to avoid scrutiny over what was being moved and the whole thing would be run by Chinese nationals if what happened in Sri Lanka is any guide.

 

So, you see, they would effectively gain full control of a key transport and distribution channel in a foreign country.

Like the South China Sea on land

[Ricardo]

"Wasn't this Line supposed to be Double-Track ?"

 

"We did try to order a locomotive, but someone on-the-phone said their Submarine took a higher-priority ?"

 

"The first load of Quality-Tourists Eagerly Await Arrival in Bangkok, Some Time Later this Month !"

 

The guy pushing  ...  "My Dad always warned me, Don't believe their promises of Fast-Track Graduate-Entry !"

[Srikcir]

58 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

 

I can see why the current government, or indeed any Thai government, would firmly reject any such conditions.

 

 

 

I think the Chinese were asking Thailand the same default terms (in lieu of higher loan interest rates) they had with Laos - payment in government properties such as mines, minerals, energy resources, etc. Who'd want Thailand rail assets that were "maintained and operated" by Thais? Chinese repossession would also basically place the Chinese in the position of a joint venture, an arrangement both the Chinese and Prayut previously rejected.

[Justgrazing]

51 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

I think the Chinese were asking Thailand the same default terms (in lieu of higher loan interest rates) they had with Laos - payment in government properties such as mines, minerals, energy resources, etc. Who'd want Thailand rail assets that were "maintained and operated" by Thais? Chinese repossession would also basically place the Chinese in the position of a joint venture, an arrangement both the Chinese and Prayut previously rejected.

It is China's M O when investing abroad to ask for the family valuables for safe keeping so to speak .. as some African nations who signed up for rail and road building in the 90's are now finding out .. But what appears to be happenening here is the Kingdom has painted itself into a corner by dealing with China alone for reasons you can think of I'm sure .. Thailand wants this a lot because it is part of the bigger picture .. But by not being able to invite tenders for not only the building of the project but also financing it makes China the card dealer .. As for what China will want as collateral you would have to think the land the thing is built on under favourable lease ( long ) would be the very least they'll be wanting not to mention the electricity infrastructure these projects need which they will install anyway and should this thing materialise don't rule out having to build additional power station generating capacity which they'll probably build also as no mistake High Speed Trains draw big amounts of electricity read upto 30Kwh per kilometre .. 

[Ricardo]

Found this on the Lao-section of the line  ...

 

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-05/17/content_29379877.htm

 

" Operating speed on the route is designed at 160 km per hour. Construction of the project is scheduled for five years with investment of some 40 billion Chinese yuan ($5.8 billion), 70 percent of which comes from Chinese investment and the rest 30 percent from the Lao side. "

 

Hold on a moment, 160 kph ?

 

and  (this was published in May this year) "The Lao and Chinese sides have been working hard to get the tunnels bored before the rainy season so that rainfall will not delay construction, as work can be carried out inside the tunnels during rain."

 

So it doesn't rain inside tunnels, this hi-tech is simply amazing !

Edited August 20, 2017 by Ricardo

[Jonah Tenner]

1 hour ago, Ricardo said:

So it doesn't rain inside tunnels, this hi-tech is simply amazing !

Unfortunately it does rain in tunnels, but it is more a permanent drip - drip than a steady drizzle.

Tunnels function as drainage for the overlying area, which can lead to interesting engineering problems.

[Justgrazing]

2 hours ago, Ricardo said:

Found this on the Lao-section of the line  ...

 

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-05/17/content_29379877.htm

 

" Operating speed on the route is designed at 160 km per hour. Construction of the project is scheduled for five years with investment of some 40 billion Chinese yuan ($5.8 billion), 70 percent of which comes from Chinese investment and the rest 30 percent from the Lao side. "

 

Hold on a moment, 160 kph ?

 

and  (this was published in May this year) "The Lao and Chinese sides have been working hard to get the tunnels bored before the rainy season so that rainfall will not delay construction, as work can be carried out inside the tunnels during rain."

 

So it doesn't rain inside tunnels, this hi-tech is simply amazing !

Exactly .. 160 kph equals 100 mph nearly half of what the French train gets upto on certain stretches of Le French network and the Brit' Intercity 125 has been doing just that 125 mph on diesel power for nearly 40 yrs .. As for cost what does the $ 5.8 bill cover .? Is it the whole route , does it include moving large parts of mother earth out of the way or bridging her as the case may be .? The only comparisons available are the French who reckon on roughly €10 million per kilometre of H S track mainly because the fairly flat landscape of middle France allows construction without too much major landscaping .. Over in UK they have been talking in the region of £ 90 million per mile for their H S T 2 project because of the stuff thats gotta be moved out of the way or bridged , tunnelled etc .. Even then I'm not sure if their costs include fitting it out with the electrification equipment , the signalling equipment which by all accounts is horrendously expensive and complicated .. In view of that 5.8 bill doesn't sound like a huge amount .. We can  though be sure that in the fullness of time the true majesty of what they have got theirselves into will be revealed .. 

Edited August 20, 2017 by Justgrazing
Spelling

[Justgrazing]

" watch you're back's boys there's a H S T coming past " .. Fair to say whatever they end up with you wanna hope the track-laying is a bit better than this .. 

[Dave67]

20 minutes ago, Justgrazing said:

" watch you're back's boys there's a H S T coming past " .. Fair to say whatever they end up with you wanna hope the track-laying is a bit better than this .. 

 Rheeda 2000 system used in Germany China and Taiwan. Construction of Turnouts, Plain track and finished product

Edited August 20, 2017 by Dave67

[Justgrazing]

11 minutes ago, Dave67 said:

 Rheeda 2000 system used in Germany China and Taiwan. Construction of Turnouts, Plain track and finished product

Nice one mate .. Would it be correct to say that once the bed is laid and prepared the actual track laying is done by machine that lays pre-assembled lengths of track in one go .. Is that correct .? How do they also join the ends of each section ..  is it with the plates bolted either side of the rail ends as they used to do .? Can imagine you would want something more than that for High Speed .. 

[Dave67]

31 minutes ago, Justgrazing said:

Nice one mate .. Would it be correct to say that once the bed is laid and prepared the actual track laying is done by machine that lays pre-assembled lengths of track in one go .. Is that correct .? How do they also join the ends of each section ..  is it with the plates bolted either side of the rail ends as they used to do .? Can imagine you would want something more than that for High Speed .. 

Was done by hand believe it or not in Taiwan and China you work on a metre per man per day to get the amount of workers you require to meet a program. A concreting team of about 30  usually at night.

 

After a few weeks, the site become like production line with the same people doing the same job every day

 

You build with what are called slave rails  cut to the correct length (20m+) for the sleeper spacing so  the rails joint is in the middle of the sleepers each side of the rail joint, The slave rails are replaced with Flash butted welded long rails up 500m in China brought to site on a rail train running on the slave rails. Slave rails are used because they are a manageable length. Normally you can only get a 500m rail to site with train running on slave rails  

 

The Germans sold China lots of machinery was not compatible with the slave rails and sleeper spacing China were using

Edited August 20, 2017 by Dave67

[Redline]

On 8/18/2017 at 7:28 PM, Dave67 said:

"The route is divided into four sections, with construction on the first 3.5 kilometres planned to start in October. After the first contract is signed, the two sides will start to work on a construction plan for the second phase, the 355-kilometre section from Nakhon Ratchasima to Nong Khai province, Akhom said. 

 

The high-speed rail service between Bangkok and Nakhon Ratchasima would start around 2021 or 2022, he added. Then the service between Nakhon Ratchasima to Nong Khai province will open in 2022 or 2023, the same year as the route from southern China to Laos starts service."

 

The 3.5km is a test track I would assume that's in October. So 355km from Korat to Nong Khai and I think I read about 260km Korat to Bangkok. Roughly 600km or 1200+km of track. So being that the ground has not been surveyed completely and a feasibility study was overridden by a swift 44 from P-Man. How can a finish date be estimated when you no idea of what lays in front of you. Charge of the light brigade springs to mind

 

Sounds like a train to nowhere

[zydeco]

On 8/14/2017 at 4:50 AM, webfact said:

“China wants to put tough conditions on the loan contract, demanding that the Chinese government could seize other assets of the Thai government if the Thai government defaults on debt repayments,” said Arkhom.

How are the Chinese going to do this? Invade? This entire Chinese boondoggle looks risky to me. China lends money to Thailand, which then uses the Chinese funds to pay Chinese companies, most of which are state backed firms. This to me sounds like a potential economic disaster if many of these countries getting Chinese money default in the wake of an economic downturn. And a lot of these countries on the receiving end of Chinese loans already are verging on being economic basketcases.

[zydeco]

On 8/14/2017 at 8:18 PM, lonewolf99 said:

If the LoS gov do not get their poops in a row fast - the Wiley Oriental Gentlemen from up North,

will put a dog leg on the rail route and head down through Burma and by pass this place with

the flooded plains and level crossings, that are ignored by all and sundry that get behind a wheel.

 

From what you read here 6 years ago it might already be happening...https://asiancorrespondent.com/2011/04/burma-china-agree-to-build-rail-link-to-seaport/#3ycTj7Bcl2upk0rO.97

The Chinese can't do it. Myanmar doesn't have a common border with Malaysia. The train would still need to go through Thailand, which, in these circumstances would be able hike up the price to just about anything they want.