U.S. cities step up removal of Confederate statues, despite Virginia violence

[Meljames]

Time for Andrew Jackson to go too.

[timendres]

6 hours ago, Salerno said:

7 hours ago, timendres said:

They are celebrated for their undeniable contributions to the history of the world.

Care to enlighten a non American as to what contributions they made to the world?

Of course, this comes from my bias as a US citizen taught US history. The Constitution of the United States is considered by many to be one of the better instantiations of governance in history. However, in my opinion, it was their definition of the principle of freedom of the individual, and the principle of that right to freedom coming from one's maker and not from government, thus being inalienable, that was their greatest achievement.

[ilostmypassword]

12 minutes ago, timendres said:

Of course, this comes from my bias as a US citizen taught US history. The Constitution of the United States is considered by many to be one of the better instantiations of governance in history. However, in my opinion, it was their definition of the principle of freedom of the individual, and the principle of that right to freedom coming from one's maker and not from government, thus being inalienable, that was their greatest achievement.

Where does it say in the constitution that the right to  freedom comes from one's maker?

[Trouble]

I suggest we just start rewriting all US History to make everything seem what the politically correct want to make it. After all white man is the original sinner in this nation and its institutions. We now have black studies and latino studies programs, we have the black caucus and the latino caucus in Congress, we have Native American focus groups, and groups for every minority out there. Black lives matter but white lives do not. Almost without exception every focus group has an interest in putting white man in his place as the true incarnate of evil. We elected a black president and that was not enough. Let the politically correct remove all the statues but it won't stop there. The intent of too many of these groups is not to focus on raising up their brethren but to tear down everything else. I went to a High School and our mascot was a Brave (American Indian), a symbol of strength and courage.  It was removed as someone decided it was not politically correct and an affront to native Americans.  Well so be it.  So now instead of being proud of that bit of American heritage, it becomes not existent. Good work.  One can argue the origins of the Civil War all they want, however not all men who fought on the side of the Confederacy fought to insure the continuation of slavery. There were many complex reasons why young men went to war on both sides and it wasn't always for the popular idealism of being for or against the emancipation of slaves.  If statues of Confederate soldiers are an affront to some, I say live with it and move on.  Tearing down these statues serves no purpose but to make one feel better in the short term.  It changes nothing. But why stop there, let's bulldoze the Confederate cemeteries as well. After all they died on the wrong side. No one looks at General Lee's life after the war and his thoughts on the subject. To the PC crowd his statue just represents an affront to their sensitivities.   I am confronted daily with things that seem inappropriate but I live with it.  Society of the future will not be about equality of opportunity but a divide between those who prosper economically and those who will remain mired in their self pity.  Glad I made it out of the muck. 

 

America is no longer the country I was raised in, but a place of division, racial and ethnic. It is not so much hatred as division.  Martin Luther King would be turning in his grave if he could see the racial and ethnic divide the exists today as the society he has hoped for is gone forever. It is worse now than it was in the 80's and 90's and only getting worse. 

[rijb]

Only this country would be f***ing stupid enough to start a civil war over statues from the last civil war  - Dennis Carlin

[Credo]

The basis for the founding of the country is the Declaration of Independence, which states:

 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

So the basic question was, are blacks people?    Since the prevailing attitude was moving towards the idea that they were (in spite of the 3/5 of a person time), the Civil War was indeed about slavery, or more basically, could some states decide who constituted a person or not.   

 

[rijb]

1 hour ago, Trouble said:

There were many complex reasons why young men went to war

Like Vietnam and the draft...

 

Many of the names on The Vietnam Veterans Memorial didn't have much say about that war either.

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed.  

[dcutman]

21 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

Why is America still so obsessed with race? I guess the same reason they still use imperial measurements. They should really look out the window and see how the rest of the western nations have moved on.

99.9% of Americans are not obsessed by race. The main stream media and a very small group of instigators seems to be the only ones obsessed and trying to stir up anybody they can.

[Kiwiken]

14 hours ago, halloween said:

Oh dear, history begins with the coming of the white man, does it?  " As in many other cultures, slavery was a key element of Maori society."

 

http://www.theprow.org.nz/maori/slavery-in-colonial-times/#.WZP2ZOkRVPY

I believe the current issue is about Statues of Civil war Commanders representing white oppression of the Negro peoples. I did not think it included the slavery practiced by the original Native American peoples? So Yes I believe in this case We are talking about Slavery practiced by Settlers from Europe and their Descendants. 

[Salerno]

7 hours ago, timendres said:

Of course, this comes from my bias as a US citizen taught US history. The Constitution of the United States is considered by many to be one of the better instantiations of governance in history. However, in my opinion, it was their definition of the principle of freedom of the individual, and the principle of that right to freedom coming from one's maker and not from government, thus being inalienable, that was their greatest achievement.

First I've ever heard that; I doubt outside America "They are celebrated for their undeniable contributions to the history of the world."

[thehelmsman]

7 hours ago, Trouble said:

I suggest we just start rewriting all US History to make everything seem what the politically correct want to make it. After all white man is the original sinner in this nation and its institutions. We now have black studies and latino studies programs, we have the black caucus and the latino caucus in Congress, we have Native American focus groups, and groups for every minority out there. Black lives matter but white lives do not. Almost without exception every focus group has an interest in putting white man in his place as the true incarnate of evil. We elected a black president and that was not enough. Let the politically correct remove all the statues but it won't stop there. The intent of too many of these groups is not to focus on raising up their brethren but to tear down everything else. I went to a High School and our mascot was a Brave (American Indian), a symbol of strength and courage.  It was removed as someone decided it was not politically correct and an affront to native Americans.  Well so be it.  So now instead of being proud of that bit of American heritage, it becomes not existent. Good work.  One can argue the origins of the Civil War all they want, however not all men who fought on the side of the Confederacy fought to insure the continuation of slavery. There were many complex reasons why young men went to war on both sides and it wasn't always for the popular idealism of being for or against the emancipation of slaves.  If statues of Confederate soldiers are an affront to some, I say live with it and move on.  Tearing down these statues serves no purpose but to make one feel better in the short term.  It changes nothing. But why stop there, let's bulldoze the Confederate cemeteries as well. After all they died on the wrong side. No one looks at General Lee's life after the war and his thoughts on the subject. To the PC crowd his statue just represents an affront to their sensitivities.   I am confronted daily with things that seem inappropriate but I live with it.  Society of the future will not be about equality of opportunity but a divide between those who prosper economically and those who will remain mired in their self pity.  Glad I made it out of the muck. 

 

America is no longer the country I was raised in, but a place of division, racial and ethnic. It is not so much hatred as division.  Martin Luther King would be turning in his grave if he could see the racial and ethnic divide the exists today as the society he has hoped for is gone forever. It is worse now than it was in the 80's and 90's and only getting worse. 

Outstanding verbiage, Great post.

[mtls2005]

Baltimore removes four Confederate statues after Virginia rally

 

(Reuters) - Baltimore removed four monuments to the pro-slavery Civil War Confederacy before dawn on Wednesday, working quickly so the city could avoid protests like the one organized by white nationalists that turned deadly in Charlottesville, Virginia.

 

The statues, including one of General Robert E. Lee and another of General Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson, were taken off their bases in Wyman Park Dell, beside the Baltimore Museum of Art, and carried away on a flatbed truck.

 

Baltimore Mayor Catherine Pugh said she and the city council decided to remove the monuments "quickly and quietly."

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-virginia-protests-statues-baltimore-idUSKCN1AW115

[LannaGuy]

14 hours ago, thaihome said:

Good that you brought the US Navy's naming of several ships for confederate war Heros in the 1950's-60's.This is another example of a political white supremacy statement done under the guise of historical commemoration.  

 

It is important to understand the context of the times.  The USS Robert E Lee was commissioned in 1958, just as the civil rights movement was picking up momentum.  The Senate and congressional military funding committees were dominated by senior Southerners. Another example of this is the addition of the stars and bars to Georgia state flag in 1956. 

 

These people have been doing this sort of thing since 1877 when Reconstruction was stopped in return for acknowledging the decision of the Electoral College that Republican Hayes won the presidency.  In return, the last Union troops in Louisiana, South Carolina,  and Florida were removed.  Within 10 years, blacks were legally deprived of the right to vote and could not testify against a white person in court.  These people have had lots of practice and have convinced generations now it was only about "state's rights" and not slavery and white supremacy. 

 

Just think, there is chance that a black sailor on Robert E Lee could have had a great grandfather/mother the Marse Robert had personally whipped or sold off from their family and the story passed down through the generations. How would that have felt.

TH 

 

I was just making the point that the US has gone 'PC Bananas' and when it was not, year ago, thinking was different. I'm not particularity a fan of statues be they confederate or not but I see it's just history not supporting EVERYTHING they did and, for that reason, I'm not against Washington or Jefferson's statues either. 

[LannaGuy]

10 hours ago, Trouble said:

I suggest we just start rewriting all US History to make everything seem what the politically correct want to make it. After all white man is the original sinner in this nation and its institutions. We now have black studies and latino studies programs, we have the black caucus and the latino caucus in Congress, we have Native American focus groups, and groups for every minority out there. Black lives matter but white lives do not. Almost without exception every focus group has an interest in putting white man in his place as the true incarnate of evil. We elected a black president and that was not enough. Let the politically correct remove all the statues but it won't stop there. The intent of too many of these groups is not to focus on raising up their brethren but to tear down everything else. I went to a High School and our mascot was a Brave (American Indian), a symbol of strength and courage.  It was removed as someone decided it was not politically correct and an affront to native Americans.  Well so be it.  So now instead of being proud of that bit of American heritage, it becomes not existent. Good work.  One can argue the origins of the Civil War all they want, however not all men who fought on the side of the Confederacy fought to insure the continuation of slavery. There were many complex reasons why young men went to war on both sides and it wasn't always for the popular idealism of being for or against the emancipation of slaves.  If statues of Confederate soldiers are an affront to some, I say live with it and move on.  Tearing down these statues serves no purpose but to make one feel better in the short term.  It changes nothing. But why stop there, let's bulldoze the Confederate cemeteries as well. After all they died on the wrong side. No one looks at General Lee's life after the war and his thoughts on the subject. To the PC crowd his statue just represents an affront to their sensitivities.   I am confronted daily with things that seem inappropriate but I live with it.  Society of the future will not be about equality of opportunity but a divide between those who prosper economically and those who will remain mired in their self pity.  Glad I made it out of the muck. 

 

America is no longer the country I was raised in, but a place of division, racial and ethnic. It is not so much hatred as division.  Martin Luther King would be turning in his grave if he could see the racial and ethnic divide the exists today as the society he has hoped for is gone forever. It is worse now than it was in the 80's and 90's and only getting worse. 

Exactly!   good post

[phutoie2]

Fascinating topic, covered very well on a radio show I was tuned into yesterday.

In the small town I was raised in Cambridgeshire we still have a statue of the Lord Protector in the market square and a few pubs in the area were named too. Our civil war was a few years before the American one, Cromwell and parliament had a King executed too. 

 

[thaihome]

13 hours ago, Trouble said:

I suggest we just start rewriting all US History to make everything seem what the politically correct want to make it. After all white man is the original sinner in this nation and its institutions. We now have black studies and latino studies programs, we have the black caucus and the latino caucus in Congress, we have Native American focus groups, and groups for every minority out there. Black lives matter but white lives do not. Almost without exception every focus group has an interest in putting white man in his place as the true incarnate of evil. We elected a black president and that was not enough. Let the politically correct remove all the statues but it won't stop there. The intent of too many of these groups is not to focus on raising up their brethren but to tear down everything else. I went to a High School and our mascot was a Brave (American Indian), a symbol of strength and courage.  It was removed as someone decided it was not politically correct and an affront to native Americans.  Well so be it.  So now instead of being proud of that bit of American heritage, it becomes not existent. Good work.  One can argue the origins of the Civil War all they want, however not all men who fought on the side of the Confederacy fought to insure the continuation of slavery. There were many complex reasons why young men went to war on both sides and it wasn't always for the popular idealism of being for or against the emancipation of slaves.  If statues of Confederate soldiers are an affront to some, I say live with it and move on.  Tearing down these statues serves no purpose but to make one feel better in the short term.  It changes nothing. But why stop there, let's bulldoze the Confederate cemeteries as well. After all they died on the wrong side. No one looks at General Lee's life after the war and his thoughts on the subject. To the PC crowd his statue just represents an affront to their sensitivities.   I am confronted daily with things that seem inappropriate but I live with it.  Society of the future will not be about equality of opportunity but a divide between those who prosper economically and those who will remain mired in their self pity.  Glad I made it out of the muck. 

 

America is no longer the country I was raised in, but a place of division, racial and ethnic. It is not so much hatred as division.  Martin Luther King would be turning in his grave if he could see the racial and ethnic divide the exists today as the society he has hoped for is gone forever. It is worse now than it was in the 80's and 90's and only getting worse. 

So, to summarize, you were much happier before you were made to realize that US history is filled with stories of the oppression of non-white people and the almost complete lack of acknowledgment of that oppression in its education system, business practices,  and government policy.

 

Having to face that history makes you very unhappy and the thought of having to make any sort of reparations for it makes you angry.

 

 

TH  

[thaihome]

An important read to give a historical perspective on the confederate statue issue and how the south did not actually lose the civil war and after a brief Reconstruction period immediately after the war, all of the economic and political dominance of the white elites through the demogugary of white supremacy was maintained right up to now.

 

TH

 

The events in Charlottesville illustrated a problem with that idea: only by the most specific, immediate definition can we consider the Confederacy to have lost the Civil War, and its legacy has defined a great deal of our history since then.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/charlottcharlottesville-and-the-trouble-with-civil-war-hypotheticals

[jayboy]

Exactly!   good post

No it's a rotten historically illiterate post, the usual self pitying drivel put out by those hankering after racial dominance when demographics have made that impossible.

Actually I have sympathy for the argument that we should not remove artifacts from the past just because they represent positions with which some people are uncomfortable.In Thailand we have reason to understand this.

But in the case of Confederacy statues these were generally raised in the 1920's long after the Civil War as part of the effort to reinforce racial apartheid.As such their removal is justified - but beware the slippery slope.There are always barbarians on hand to take advantage of the well intentioned.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[jayboy]

Save us all from the politically correct. Once they adopt a POV, no matter how one-sided or illogical, any body who opposes them will be branded a bigot, racist, fascist, nazi or similar perjorative label.
 
 

And in your view is fighting against fascism, racial supremacy and anti semitism politically incorrect?


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[LannaGuy]

15 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

And in your view is fighting against fascism, racial supremacy and anti semitism politically incorrect?


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

Neither and all this PC vs Non-PC  is BS and utterly divisive.  BTW why don't they say 'People of Colour Lives Matter' as 'Black' has been declared Non-PC so even CNN refuse to mention it.  It's madness!  

[rijb]

7 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

Baltimore removes four Confederate statues after Virginia rally

 

(Reuters) - Baltimore removed four monuments to the pro-slavery Civil War Confederacy before dawn on Wednesday, working quickly so the city could avoid protests like the one organized by white nationalists that turned deadly in Charlottesville, Virginia.

 

The statues, including one of General Robert E. Lee and another of General Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson, were taken off their bases in Wyman Park Dell, beside the Baltimore Museum of Art, and carried away on a flatbed truck.

 

Baltimore Mayor Catherine Pugh said she and the city council decided to remove the monuments "quickly and quietly."

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-virginia-protests-statues-baltimore-idUSKCN1AW115

Lee was opposed to memorials.

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/16/us/robert-e-lee-statues-letters-trnd/index.html

 

And so is his family.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/lee-great-great-grandson-thinks-statues-article-1.3417713

 

[thaihome]

Interesting take on the attempts to minimize the role of slavery in the current racism of today. 

 

No other version in slavery came close to driving the economic engine of a culture such as what happened in the antebellum south. All based on white supremacy and the subjugation of African-Americans. Was the only version of slavery to evolve to be based on solely on race.

TH 

 

Quote

 

Last night, Tucker Carlson took on the subject of slavery on his Fox News show. Slavery is evil, he noted. However, slavery permeated the ancient world, he said, as reflected in the on-screen graphics.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/08/the-1850s-response-to-2017s-racist-horrorshow/537054/
 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by thaihome

[halloween]

6 hours ago, jayboy said:

 

And in your view is fighting against fascism, racial supremacy and anti semitism politically incorrect?


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

No. What has that to do with pulling down statues. Oh wait, don't tell me, it's symbolic right.

[Richard W]

On 16/08/2017 at 11:08 PM, Kiwiken said:

I believe the current issue is about Statues of Civil war Commanders representing white oppression of the Negro peoples. I did not think it included the slavery practiced by the original Native American peoples? So Yes I believe in this case We are talking about Slavery practiced by Settlers from Europe and their Descendants. 

And though a minor element, also by the Five Civilised Tribes (though I'm not entirely sure abut the Seminoles).  The Cherokees recently attempted to disenfranchise the descendants of their slaves, though the constitutional amendment was ultimately (2011) ruled unconstitutional.

[craigt3365]

16 hours ago, thaihome said:

Interesting take on the attempts to minimize the role of slavery in the current racism of today. 

 

No other version in slavery came close to driving the economic engine of a culture such as what happened in the antebellum south. All based on white supremacy and the subjugation of African-Americans. Was the only version of slavery to evolve to be based on solely on race.

TH

Slavery was a part of the world for thousands of years. Many European countries became incredibly wealthy off the backs of slaves. Many of the world's best historical sites were built by slaves. Sadly, some nut jobs are aligning themselves with the confederacy to push forward their warped view of how things should be.

 

Crazy times. Crazy people.

[Richard W]

17 hours ago, thaihome said:

Was the only version of slavery to evolve to be based on solely on race.

What about slavery in Tuareg society?

[Thakkar]

Addressing plans to remove the city's statues, New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu said in a speech in May:

 

These statues are not just stone and metal. They are not just innocent remembrances of a benign history. These monuments purposefully celebrate a fictional, sanitized Confederacy; ignoring the death, ignoring the enslavement, and the terror that it actually stood for.

 

After the Civil War, these statues were a part of that terrorism as much as a burning cross on someone’s lawn; they were erected purposefully to send a strong message to all who walked in their shadows about who was still in charge in this city.

 

—A new generation of counterfeit patriots wants to preserve that fake history and their own sense that men who share their complexion are still in charge. They are taking up arms again and have an ally in the Whitehouse.

[thaihome]

5 hours ago, Richard W said:

What about slavery in Tuareg society?

Slavery in Tuareg society is caste based.  Caste and race are not the same thing though, of course, both are inherited from the parents.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg_people#Slaves

http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-caste-and-vs-race/

 

Nice one though.

TH 

[Thakkar]

This is the way to do it. 

 

"Baltimore Mayor Catherine E. Pugh (D) announced Monday [Aug 16] she was in talks with contractors to haul away the statues, and the city council approved a removal plan that night."

 

By Wednesday they were gone, removed in the dead of night, without fanfare, as proponents of slavery deserve to be.

 

This is smart. Just do it, don't talk about it. These statues are gathering places for Nazis now. Move them out to a museum or some kind of Slavery Memorial where they can be used to teach about the civil war. But no more public displays celebrating he confederacy. They mostly put them up to defy the civil rights movement. It's long past time to take them down.