Midweek rant: The Right to Rant – it’s not bashing Thailand to criticize

[zzaa09]

4 minutes ago, amvet said:

My Thai wife just called me into the kitchen to point out some grease left in the pot after I washed it.  It was a just criticism.  But a criticism nevertheless.  What should she have done?

At least you realize who the boss is....

 

 

[David Walden]

5 minutes ago, VBF said:

I don't need to buy his book - DC was simply a writer and a salesman of "self-improvement" courses. (I did look him up) As such, his opinion, yours and mine are all of equal relevance. You happen to share his view, i do not - no problem. If I criticise someone who becomes defensive and resentful, that's their problem.

Repeating what you posted previously  won't alter my view that we all have  right to our POV but mine is that constructive criticism, presented courteously can often be positive.

 

Or, if you will - I may disagree with you but I defend to the hilt your right to your opinion.

I never did criticized anyone's opinion, yes Mr Carnegie  did write a book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" sold it or loaned to much of the Worlds most intelligent and successful people ( I was one 555).  There are probably 10,000 different books written by various writers in the world on a similar subject.  I suggest that most of these writers have either read his book or used his advice and influence in all of them.  Just reading about Dale Carnegie himself and his objectives will give lots to think about, and yes he made lots of money.  So did his readers.

[David Walden]

6 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

At least you realize who the boss is....

 

 

See the positive side, perhaps you will from now on wash the dishes proper.  I promise she will love you more?????

[amvet]

2 minutes ago, David Walden said:

See the positive side, perhaps you will from now on wash the dishes proper.  I promise she will love you more?????

My question was how could she have told me I was a substandard dishwasher and effect a positive change without criticizing me?  The instructor at the shooting range has to tell the marksman he didn't hit the target or why have an instructor? 

[VBF]

4 minutes ago, David Walden said:

See the positive side, perhaps you will from now on wash the dishes proper.  I promise she will love you more?????

There you go  - constructive criticism  - gotcha!  (Just my little joke!)

[Golden Triangle]

2 hours ago, David Walden said:

Dale Carniegie in 1936 wrote a book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" almost a bible to on how to treat people.  The 6th most successful book ever written.  His most important statement and advice in his book is "there is no such thing as Constructive Criticism, all criticism reduces the esteem of all individuals.  There are many alternatives you should look for.  I would be the first to see his point.

I have to disagree on this, mainly because it is the way that the critique is presented,  I spent a few years teaching new skills to a mature workforce who were new to the job-roll that they were about to undertake, the majority had not been in a classroom environment for maybe 50+ years, these people were scared witless, and also worried about losing the employment that had been offered them on successful completion of the 2 week course.

 

When it came to the testing stage of the course I have seen grown men crying because they were shit scared of failing the course (NVQ based) and therefore losing their jobs, we had to encourage and cajole them all the way.

 

During dry runs with the students before testing day, which was pretty intense and included a practical as well as a written test we would ask such questions as: How do you think that went ?, would you do anything differently ? and a host of other stuff that eludes me now.

 

In the 3+ years that I worked in this department we failed very few people, mainly because the teaching staff were drawn from the best available and all students were given one to one feedback everyday, they gave US feedback on what we were doing and we gave them feedback on how the were doing, and that sir was 120 students every 2 weeks for 3+ years drawn from every region of the UK including the Outer Hebrides who had there own language.

 

So, to finish, I would say that how you treat others has a lot to do with how you are received in this world, constructive criticism as long as it is delivered correctly can make a huge impact on everyone.  

 

 

 

 

[David Walden]

18 minutes ago, amvet said:

My question was how could she have told me I was a substandard dishwasher and effect a positive change without criticizing me?  The instructor at the shooting range has to tell the marksman he didn't hit the target or why have an instructor? 

In Australia we have a name for slow witted person.  They are called "Drongoes".  A drongo could be a person who when nagged to do the washing up breaks a few plates, doesn't get asked again.  I found that out when I was a kid. 5555

Edited August 17, 2017 by David Walden

[VBF]

3 minutes ago, Golden Triangle said:

So, to finish, I would say that how you treat others has a lot to do with how you are received in this world, constructive criticism as long as it is delivered correctly can make a huge impact on everyone.  

 

Which is pretty much the point i was trying to make - in fact I would say that if you're tasked with teaching, training or mentoring another person, if you're to do your job properly, it's nigh on impossible not to criticise at some point...

[VBF]

4 minutes ago, David Walden said:

In Australia we have a name for slow witted person.  They are called "Drongoes".  A drongo could be a person who when nagged to do the washing up breaks a few plates, dosen't ask again.  I found that out when I was a kid. 5555

NOT such a Drongo after all then? 

 

Mind you in UK, we refer to such individuals as politicians!   Couldn't resist

Edited August 17, 2017 by VBF

[David Walden]

6 minutes ago, Golden Triangle said:

I have to disagree on this, mainly because it is the way that the critique is presented,  I spent a few years teaching new skills to a mature workforce who were new to the job-roll that they were about to undertake, the majority had not been in a classroom environment for maybe 50+ years, these people were scared witless, and also worried about losing the employment that had been offered them on successful completion of the 2 week course.

 

When it came to the testing stage of the course I have seen grown men crying because they were shit scared of failing the course (NVQ based) and therefore losing their jobs, we had to encourage and cajole them all the way.

 

During dry runs with the students before testing day, which was pretty intense and included a practical as well as a written test we would ask such questions as: How do you think that went ?, would you do anything differently ? and a host of other stuff that eludes me now.

 

In the 3+ years that I worked in this department we failed very few people, mainly because the teaching staff were drawn from the best available and all students were given one to one feedback everyday, they gave US feedback on what we were doing and we gave them feedback on how the were doing, and that sir was 120 students every 2 weeks for 3+ years drawn from every region of the UK including the Outer Hebrides who had there own language.

 

So, to finish, I would say that how you treat others has a lot to do with how you are received in this world, constructive criticism as long as it is delivered correctly can make a huge impact on everyone.  

 

 

 

 

Are yes feedback, I think that's the way to go...you got it constructive feedback everyday.

[amvet]

3 minutes ago, VBF said:

Which is pretty much the point i was trying to make - in fact I would say that if you're tasked with teaching, training or mentoring another person, if you're to do your job properly, it's nigh on impossible not to criticise at some point...

Airline pilot comes to mind.  What would happen if you did not critique his performance?  Does that mean that the Carnegie course and the "There is no such thing as constructive criticism” about Thailand or anything else is really BS?  I must say that my marriage is much better since I decided never to criticize or share my opinions about anything with my wife.  

[Golden Triangle]

7 minutes ago, David Walden said:

Are yes feedback, I think that's the way to go...you got it constructive feedback everyday.

And now you resort to sarcasm, yep that's the way to go.

[David Walden]

21 minutes ago, amvet said:

My question was how could she have told me I was a substandard dishwasher and effect a positive change without criticizing me?  The instructor at the shooting range has to tell the marksman he didn't hit the target or why have an instructor? 

O yes you missed again you half baked bloody idiot^#*&@^ ,  or make make sure you feel the wind, get comfortable, check the range and a bit softer and steady on the trigger. 

[VBF]

5 minutes ago, David Walden said:

O yes you missed again you half baked bloody idiot^#*&@^ ,  or make make sure you feel the wind, get comfortable, check the range and a bit softer and steady on the trigger. 

And to explain WHY you're telling the shooter that, you need to explain that is why he missed the target last time.....because he didn't do what you're telling him to do next time.

I call that constructive (and helpful) criticism. To do less would leave the student shooter wondering.... 

 

David, do you not think that perhaps you need to credit people such as this student shooter with a little more intelligence and take the stance that those with enquiring minds will want an answer to their enquiries? I know that when I've been learning stuff over the years, when an expert tells me that the reason something went wrong is because I DID something wrong, then I have a greater understanding of the subject.

Edited August 17, 2017 by VBF

[Golden Triangle]

5 minutes ago, VBF said:

And to explain WHY you're telling the shooter that, you need to explain that is why he missed the target last time.....because he didn't do what you're telling him to do next time.

I call that constructive (and helpful) criticism. To do less would leave the student shooter wondering.... 

Reckon you got him stitched up like a Kipper - you may have to google that :)

 

[VBF]

Just now, Golden Triangle said:

Reckon you got him stitched up like a Kipper - you may have to google that :)

 

Now now..... that's not constructive - however.......

No need to Google it mate - I'm a Londoner - 'nuff said 

[Justgrazing]

The one thing I loath in this place is when a bargirl calls me " costomer " .. that is so without class and makes it sound like you're buying a burger or kebab .. Client or Patron is far more discerning .. And when they fill you're not their's but you're bloody phone with dozens of selfies .. How do they take so many in the 5 mins you're in the shower .. Oh and dropping the A/C setting to arctic temp' .. 

[Jeremy50]

I once showed Rambo 4 with Thai subtitles to class of 18yr old Thai students, there's a scene, where one of Rambo's mercenary friends refers to Thailand as a f...i..g  Sh..h.le, the whole class roared with laughter, they thought it was hilarious.[ and I did check afterwards that it was a correct translation] They were also exceptionally bright students, and most went on to study and work abroad.  So don't forget there are plenty of Thais all too ready to make fun of and denigrate their country just as much as a disgruntled ex-pat.

[NanLaew]

54 minutes ago, Justgrazing said:

The one thing I loath in this place is when a bargirl calls me " costomer " .. that is so without class and makes it sound like you're buying a burger or kebab .. Client or Patron is far more discerning .. And when they fill you're not their's but you're bloody phone with dozens of selfies .. How do they take so many in the 5 mins you're in the shower .. Oh and dropping the A/C setting to arctic temp' .. 

OK if she calls you John?

[Justgrazing]

Just now, NanLaew said:

OK if she calls you John?

No but Billy I might accept .. 

[Mark mark]

17 hours ago, Raymonddiaz said:

I am amused to see how foreigners like to be called " Farang or alien ?" . We are called Farang to remind us that we don't belong here and we should shut up or go home......

I always tell my thai friends that I was born in a country with freedom of speech and free to say what you think. Background is important to know to understand someone's mind. There's no moral in Thai culture me think.....

I think "Folang" comes from the historical miss pronunciation of "France" ... the country and Forign people that were pretty close to here at that time when they started saying it. .... And it is realy not from Forgner, or aliens ... like they do not speak English you know, so that is just a sound to them.

 

And I think that Thailand actualy does have a lot of moral in there cukture, it is just crazy that forigners, like you can not see it, as YOU and them, are one of the main benificiaries if it !!! ... The freadom to "Live" ... and to live your own life like you want to (As I do mine) ..

 

Like the silly things about Thailand ... they are just dustractions, and the Thais them selves do Know this also, (even if you don't) ... So the real freadom of life CAN go on. ... Right ???

 

Like in Australua can I live like I live here ??? ... NO !!! Not even close to it !!! There would be a ruel or ordanance that I could not break !!!  Or Some one WOULD just tell me what I shoukd be doing !!! .... But here, just fowliw the smoke screen ruels, .... and well Bingo ... NO ONE tells me to live my life ... ANY WAY DIFERENTLY THAN I AM.

 

And Rooster with his rant philosophy probably gets away with it also ... and you !!!! ...

 

..... And Is'nt that Moral and good !!!

 

...  Good Old Mark

[observer90210]

6 hours ago, amvet said:

My Thai wife just called me into the kitchen to point out some grease left in the pot after I washed it.  It was a just criticism.  But a criticism nevertheless.  What should she have done?

Forced you to buy a good quality dishwasher perhaps?

[cyberfarang]

8 hours ago, zzaa09 said:

Indeed.

A few of us have secured such a lifestyle where the instinctive urge to keep brethren Farang company and other associated cultural fare is surely not that valuable and non-existent.  

 

I, too, couldn't be bothered with the homogenous Farang.

Nothing that special.

I have western friends and most of them are similar to me, as they are quite content in Thailand.

 

There are somethings that irritate me in Thailand, but there was an awful lot that used to irritate me in England as well. But that`s only being human because everywhere has it`s positives and negatives, no country is perfect. But as whole I`m happy in Thailand and try to see it`s positive side, making the most of my lifestyle here. I still say that those who constantly complain cannot be happy otherwise if happy they wouldn`t find much to complain about. A lot of TV members do seem to an insecure, moaning load of old farts. Leopards don`t change their spots, I bet they were the same in their own countries as well.

[JLCrab]

I started my first post on this topic with: "I like living in Thailand. I have a great time in Thailand."

I don't see how one might consider that to be complaining and moaning but, then again, I've never been to the UK.

[David Walden]

9 hours ago, VBF said:

Which is pretty much the point i was trying to make - in fact I would say that if you're tasked with teaching, training or mentoring another person, if you're to do your job properly, it's nigh on impossible not to criticise at some point...

Have you ever seen or heard The Dalai Lama who describes himself as a simple monk make "constructive criticism" of anyone.  Even I'm not perfect and sometimes I resort to "destructive criticism"  (blast).  Thai culture insists that there is always an alternative to "destructive criticism" .  Perhaps people should remember.  "When in Rome do as the Romans do" 

[David Walden]

1 hour ago, JLCrab said:

I started my first post on this topic with: "I like living in Thailand. I have a great time in Thailand."

I don't see how one might consider that to be complaining and moaning but, then again, I've never been to the UK.

Bill Cole...you make a very good critic?  See Bill being nice is very easy.

Edited August 18, 2017 by David Walden

[David Walden]

7 hours ago, NanLaew said:

OK if she calls you John?

Give up the bar girls...

[David Walden]

9 hours ago, amvet said:

My question was how could she have told me I was a substandard dishwasher and effect a positive change without criticizing me?  The instructor at the shooting range has to tell the marksman he didn't hit the target or why have an instructor? 

Put your thinking cap on...the student will know he didn't hit the target.  Just tell him "the enemy is coming over the hill, it would be a good idea if you improved your shooting"  nicely? 

[David Walden]

8 hours ago, Jeremy50 said:

I once showed Rambo 4 with Thai subtitles to class of 18yr old Thai students, there's a scene, where one of Rambo's mercenary friends refers to Thailand as a f...i..g  Sh..h.le, the whole class roared with laughter, they thought it was hilarious.[ and I did check afterwards that it was a correct translation] They were also exceptionally bright students, and most went on to study and work abroad.  So don't forget there are plenty of Thais all too ready to make fun of and denigrate their country just as much as a disgruntled ex-pat.

Hmmm smart Thai students.  Maybe they know Rambo is a figment of Yankee Doodle imagination and calls for much laughter...yes, smart Thai students.

[StraightTalk]

14 hours ago, Raymonddiaz said:

It's my opinion and you have yours. Respect mine and I will do the same ?.

It's not a question of opinion; It is a question whether your message represents fact or fiction. And (as embarrassing it may be) since this is a public forum you have to expect befitting response(s).

Respectfully yours...