A guilty verdict for Thailand's Yingluck may stoke anger but military firmly in charge

[piersbeckett]

'military firmly in charge', surely not; I thought that the idea was that they were just taking control temporarily to make necessary reforms to bring about proper rules of engagement between democratically elected political parties and to oversee a much needed transition to a non-corrupt, free and fair voting system but now, 3.3 years on they're 'firmly in charge' so that's alright then, the Thai people can breathe a sigh of relief!

[mike324]

3 hours ago, stephen tracy said:

How do you know I don't deal with civil servants?  I wasn't aware we'd met.

Then care to explain who you deal with and why there wasn't any change for you. I'm all ears, and if I jump the gun too quickly, I'm sorry if there wasn't any change for you. But there is positive change for me, hence I'm happy that its slowly improving at a slower than snail pace, which is better than no improvement at all compare to the past decade.

[stephen tracy]

1 minute ago, mike324 said:

Then care to explain who you deal with and why there wasn't any change for you. I'm all ears, and if I jump the gun too quickly, I'm sorry if there wasn't any change for you. But there is positive change for me, hence I'm happy that its slowly improving at a slower than snail pace, which is better than no improvement at all compare to the past decade.

I don't think it's something that is improving, I think its regressing.  An elite that is on the one hand barricading itself behind a military regime (that it employs) while tightening the screws on personal freedoms and perceived socio-economic  threats to their traditional status, while at the same time denying this is the case, even in the face of all clear evidence to the contrary.  Once people start serving time for free speech or pressing like on FB, the agenda becomes clear.

[mike324]

4 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Can you be more specific please. I can assure you that many people do indeed deal with civil servants  on a weekly and monthly basis and  that they are  not far off the mark if they assert there has been no change for the better. For example;

- We all deal with the immigration service. Have you not seen what has been going on at the airports? It's a mess.

- Has there been any improvement in the administration of justice? Have litigation waiting times improved? Has the  resolution of  civil cases been more transparent?

- Can anyone claim with a straight face that hospital administration and the delivery of basic health services  has improved?

- How about education? Have you seen  what's running the shop now?

- Has anyone  cleaned up the corruption within the police forces? Seriously, how can  anyone claim there has been a change when the Marine 5 police unit still allows the  illegal jetski and motorboat activity at Phuket beaches?

-Have any civil servants been arrested, or charged or convicted for corruption in relation to land encroachment? I don't think it magically stopped after the overthrow of the legally elected  government.

- Has there been an end to  the paying for positions in the public service?

 

Tell you what, when the Patong civil servants finally deal with the transport gangsters and enforce the  parking regulations and stop their illegal activities, then I will accept that there has been some positive change. When  business owners can receive their permits or operate  without paying protection money and bribes, then I'll  listen.

I'm not aware the immigration was so corrupted that has been a problem. Please do enlighten me. But on the immigration note, citizenship application has been expedited compare to years before, applications use to sat idle on desk waiting for tea money to be paid, or the officials in charge who could care a damn.

 

Didn't know litigation wait time is consider as corruption, didn't know hospital wait time is worth even complaining here. Isn't that same in many developed countries too? 

 

Civil servants arrested - You must have forget about the news about top generals being arrested, hotels being razed for encroachment on national property. Police are less likely to take bribes openly in public.

 

Again I don't claim the junta is all good and things have improved across the board. I only claim that there are small improvements. 

 

Your complaints are all about wait times and inefficiencies in the system. Thailand still has a long way to go before it gets there, so hold your horses buddy. Lets tackle the corruption problem and laziness of authorities first.

 

 

 

[mike324]

1 minute ago, stephen tracy said:

I don't think it's something that is improving, I think its regressing.  An elite that is on the one hand barricading itself behind a military regime (that it employs) while tightening the screws on personal freedoms and perceived socio-economic  threats to their traditional status, while at the same time denying this is the case, even in the face of all clear evidence to the contrary.  Once people start serving time for free speech or pressing like on FB, the agenda becomes clear.

You fail to explain how a normal person like you or any Thai is impacted. Like many others, you keep on beating a dead horse about an elite - junta that is having an iron fist on all things. Its been like this for decades with politicians having a free reign.  Yes it seems to have gotten worse because a junta is in power, and that is a scary thing for the western world. The difference I notice now is a slight improvement in corruption, which benefits the society. 

 

Yes I get it, free speech is curb. I feel you, but most folks out there don't go around bashing the junta in public, hence this is really not that big of a deal compare to having corrupt cops visiting your business every month collecting tea money. That is what matters more for majority of Thais, the corruption in all aspects that is effecting their livelihoods. 

 

You and I are focused on different things. Being from a Western world, you want to enforce the western standards on Thailand, that's just not possible until you solve the corruption problem. Free speech and Democracy will have to wait, that is just the reality. I've kept on saying, Thailand needs to take two steps back before it can move forward again. I would love Thailand to be Democratic like any develop western nation, that would be perfect. 

 

We are deviating away from the main topic, so I'll just end it here.

 

 

[stephen tracy]

15 minutes ago, mike324 said:

You fail to explain how a normal person like you or any Thai is impacted. Like many others, you keep on beating a dead horse about an elite - junta that is having an iron fist on all things. Its been like this for decades with politicians having a free reign.  Yes it seems to have gotten worse because a junta is in power, and that is a scary thing for the western world. The difference I notice now is a slight improvement in corruption, which benefits the society. 

 

Yes I get it, free speech is curb. I feel you, but most folks out there don't go around bashing the junta in public, hence this is really not that big of a deal compare to having corrupt cops visiting your business every month collecting tea money. That is what matters more for majority of Thais, the corruption in all aspects that is effecting their livelihoods. 

 

You and I are focused on different things. Being from a Western world, you want to enforce the western standards on Thailand, that's just not possible until you solve the corruption problem. Free speech and Democracy will have to wait, that is just the reality. I've kept on saying, Thailand needs to take two steps back before it can move forward again. I would love Thailand to be Democratic like any develop western nation, that would be perfect. 

 

We are deviating away from the main topic, so I'll just end it here.

 

 

A good answer, but although I was born in the Western world, I've never really lived in it since I was 5 years old, apart from the odd visit.  Also, I'm not too sure how you conclude that matters of corruption have improved under the junta.  I don't mean that in a snide way, I just mean, why do you think that?  How so? It seems to me that corruption is endemic in Thailand and it goes on regardless of who is that the helm. Prayuth is always banging on about corruption but refuses to disclose his assets (despite demanding that others do) and has warned anyone not to even question how he accrued his wealth.  It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out why.

[mike324]

4 minutes ago, stephen tracy said:

A good answer, but although I was born in the Western world, I've never really lived in it since I was 5 years old, apart from the odd visit.  Also, I'm not too sure how you conclude that matters of corruption have improved under the junta.  I don't mean that in a snide way, I just mean, why do you think that?  How so? It seems to me that corruption is endemic in Thailand and it goes on regardless of who is that the helm. Prayuth is always banging on about corruption but refuses to disclose his assets (despite demanding that others do) and has warned anyone not to even question how he accrued his wealth.  It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out why.

As I have said earlier, its only under my own experience that is has improved. I deal with the customs office and local offices that collect taxes for real estate and factories. I've noticed a reduction of corruption in regards to asking for tea money. This is mostly the case for the custom official. But the authorities that are in charge of collecting taxes have asked for less, some did not even ask last year in fear of being reported, as the junta in charge do and will take action compare to before. Last year, my factory taxes were past due by a couple of months, the main reason is authorities won't release how much I need to pay because they want me to offer them tea money first, they are afraid to ask for it.

 

Its the fact that civil servants are watching their backs, I call it an improvement.

 

Not only that, some traffic police have refuse to take bribes too, but I would consider this mostly due to afraid of being filmed with phones nowadays. The fact that they know the soldier has power to look over their should plays a small part too. Police can be held more accountable now compare to before.

 

Its a small drop of improvement, but I'm sure other business owners have similar experiences. There is still a long way to go. I agree with you on Prayuth not declaring, he could have at least been more popular if he  censor so many news / speech and declare his wealth, simple things to do. I mean he already did right before when he was sworn in as PM, but he refuse declare again.

 

 

[Jip99]

1 hour ago, stephen tracy said:

I don't think it's something that is improving, I think its regressing.  An elite that is on the one hand barricading itself behind a military regime (that it employs) while tightening the screws on personal freedoms and perceived socio-economic  threats to their traditional status, while at the same time denying this is the case, even in the face of all clear evidence to the contrary.  Once people start serving time for free speech or pressing like on FB, the agenda becomes clear.

 

 

No.

 

Things definitely improving from where I see it.

[billd766]

8 hours ago, binjalin said:

Sir I understand this : they have granted themselves immunity from the very thing they pursue Yingluck for and that, where I come from, is hypocrisy and despicable. 

 

But isn't that exactly the same thing that Yingluck and the PTP tried to do one dark night until they got found out and stopped for acting illegally?

 

BTW please don't call me sir, (I don't deserve it) and it makes me feel much older than the 73 years that I am.

Edited August 24, 2017 by billd766
Added extra text

[candide]

9 hours ago, mike324 said:

top generals being arrested

One for familly reasons and the other one because he was stupid enough to get his cut paid by bank transfer from the trafficker. Of course in the later case no other top military was accomplice. 

[geriatrickid]

16 hours ago, mike324 said:

I'm not aware the immigration was so corrupted that has been a problem. Please do enlighten me. But on the immigration note, citizenship application has been expedited compare to years before, applications use to sat idle on desk waiting for tea money to be paid, or the officials in charge who could care a damn.

 

Didn't know litigation wait time is consider as corruption, didn't know hospital wait time is worth even complaining here. Isn't that same in many developed countries too? 

 

Civil servants arrested - You must have forget about the news about top generals being arrested, hotels being razed for encroachment on national property. Police are less likely to take bribes openly in public.

 

Again I don't claim the junta is all good and things have improved across the board. I only claim that there are small improvements. 

 

Your complaints are all about wait times and inefficiencies in the system. Thailand still has a long way to go before it gets there, so hold your horses buddy. Lets tackle the corruption problem and laziness of authorities first.

 

 

 

Whoa, so now you are  rephrasing to say that there has been a decrease in  "corruption". Seriously? I mean, seriously?  I offer that the frequency and severity of corruption is as bad as ever, the difference is that people have been intimidated/terrorized/threatened into   staying quiet. 

I direct your attention to the chronic human trafficking  cases that implicated senior military officers. What ever happened to the accused and the cases? They just disappeared. What of the police officer who exposed the  coorruption? He was forced to flee for fear of his life. What of the journalists who have tried to expose some of the more blatant abuses? You know what happens don't you, or are you going to deny that?

 

The General/Prime Minister went to Hua Hin and promised to clear the beaches of the illegal restaurants, jetskis and land encroachment. It worked for 3 months, then wham bam it all went back to the way it was before, only worse. It's now so bad, that on some days, several of the kite sailing businesses monopolize a large swath of prime beach area, telling non clients to go away, that they "control" the beach.  What of the illegal dumping of toxic waste  and flytipping in Hua Hin? Not one person arrested, and not one criminal charge has been brought.What of the encroaching upon land preserves in the Hua Hin area? I am unaware of anyone  one being charged and any enforcement action taken. Do you honestly expect to be taken seriously, with your immigration claim when there are consistent and repeated allegations made  about the shakedown of the  foreign workers from Myanmar and Cambodia?  How about you just write that in your own experience and for your  interactions you are  satisfied? For the  majority of the others, I doubt that their experience has been as delightful as yours.

[mike324]

1 hour ago, geriatrickid said:

Whoa, so now you are  rephrasing to say that there has been a decrease in  "corruption". Seriously? I mean, seriously?  I offer that the frequency and severity of corruption is as bad as ever, the difference is that people have been intimidated/terrorized/threatened into   staying quiet. 

I direct your attention to the chronic human trafficking  cases that implicated senior military officers. What ever happened to the accused and the cases? They just disappeared. What of the police officer who exposed the  coorruption? He was forced to flee for fear of his life. What of the journalists who have tried to expose some of the more blatant abuses? You know what happens don't you, or are you going to deny that?

 

The General/Prime Minister went to Hua Hin and promised to clear the beaches of the illegal restaurants, jetskis and land encroachment. It worked for 3 months, then wham bam it all went back to the way it was before, only worse. It's now so bad, that on some days, several of the kite sailing businesses monopolize a large swath of prime beach area, telling non clients to go away, that they "control" the beach.  What of the illegal dumping of toxic waste  and flytipping in Hua Hin? Not one person arrested, and not one criminal charge has been brought.What of the encroaching upon land preserves in the Hua Hin area? I am unaware of anyone  one being charged and any enforcement action taken. Do you honestly expect to be taken seriously, with your immigration claim when there are consistent and repeated allegations made  about the shakedown of the  foreign workers from Myanmar and Cambodia?  How about you just write that in your own experience and for your  interactions you are  satisfied? For the  majority of the others, I doubt that their experience has been as delightful as yours.

Yup there are small decrease in corruptions for the agencies I deal with. We live different lives and thats all I will say. You can rant out all the problems, yup its there, it was all there even under Yinglucks administration. So for many of the issues you listed, it has been the same for decades. I don't deny it, am I not allow to voice my opinion without you saying its invalid just because you have a different view?

 

Do you honestly expect all this corruption to disappear even without the junta being around? The problem with corruption starts with education, until thats fix, you can't really expect any quick change. So please continue your rant.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2017 by mike324

[binjalin]

12 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

But isn't that exactly the same thing that Yingluck and the PTP tried to do one dark night until they got found out and stopped for acting illegally?

 

BTW please don't call me sir, (I don't deserve it) and it makes me feel much older than the 73 years that I am.

If that is so 'stopped for acting illegally' why was not the same applied to said Junta?  (rhetorical)  

[billd766]

2 hours ago, binjalin said:

If that is so 'stopped for acting illegally' why was not the same applied to said Junta?  (rhetorical)  

 

Why ask me. I have exactly the same effect on ANY Thai government as you do.

 

Nothing.

 

Why not ask the junta? (rhetorical)