Condo Juristic Management - can they be fired?

[aussienam]

Hi forum readers, 

 

Another post regarding the ongoing issues arising out of condo ownership in Thailand.  

This time I am querying about the Condominium Juristic Management.  After failing to adequately address several issues to do with keeping the condo complex properly maintained, and collection of maintenance fees, several owners have grown tired of seeing no change, no  improvement and what appears to be no action initiated against non-fee payers.  

 

This could come down to laziness, ineptness, disinterest, dishonesty, etc.  I suspect that there is a high level of incompetence regarding anything outside basic day to day management.  

 

I therefore ask if any expat condo owners here know of the procedures to go about dismissing the juristic management and employing a new team? 

Are there legal hurdles?  I am assuming there are because of course TIT.  

 

So please enlighten me!

 

[cheeryble]

You need a vote of owners......can't quite remember the percentage may be 25%.

 

Then there's the question of whether you have a term contract with the JP (not necessarily a good idea, can be better month to month.

If it's say one year it may be an idea to make written requests to the JP and keep a record of compliance in case they go to court.

 

You need to have a replacement ready to go or things like sales and non essential maintenance or improvements can grind to a halt. An owner can be JP, but it gives them a lot of control so u need the right person.

 

 

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[aussienam]

8 minutes ago, cheeryble said:

You need a vote of owners......can't quite remember the percentage may be 25%.

Then there's the question of whether you have a term contract with the JP (not necessarily a good idea, can be better month to month.

You need to have a replacement ready to go or things like sales and non essential maintenance or improvements.......which I think the building manager can order.......if it's not the JP.......can grind to s halt. An owner can act as JP if necessary, but it gives them a lot of control so u need the right person.


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Oh just been told that the developer and its partners own the majority of condos so that whenever there are votes issues against management in AGMS, individual owners have no power.  So developer won't sack management if it is not in their vested interests.  I am screwed. 

[Delight]

45 minutes ago, aussienam said:

Oh just been told that the developer and its partners own the majority of condos so that whenever there are votes issues against management in AGMS, individual owners have no power.  So developer won't sack management if it is not in their vested interests.  I am screwed. 

 It is it fact the developer and its partners who are not actually paying?

 

By law every month a cash flow statement has to be produced and displayed.

 

 I suspect that you will some advise from a lawyer who knows about these things.

JPM 's can be fined. In some circumstances  up to 50 ,000 Baht

 

 

[cheeryble]

It sounds like good points from Delight.

Check the balance sheet is up every month and try to understand it and photo it.

 

This is one of the dangers of moving into a new building. Unless all condos are sold......which can take a long time/never.....then the communal coffers don't get filled. (It also seems that new buildings are charging much higher common fees than the established ones, seem to be double or more, odd as they obviously have less maintenance to do until some years have passed.)

 

You've now discovered another big reason why one wants all units sold to individual owners.......if not the best you can hope for's a benevolent dictatorship.......but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

My choice would be a well kept established condominium with a working committee in place.

A good example with well renovated units should in fact sell for s premium over new buildings for the reasons above, but so far it's not the case.

 

 

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[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, cheeryble said:

You need a vote of owners......can't quite remember the percentage may be 25%.

 

It depends on whether the OP is talking about sacking the JPM or the management company. The two are not necessarily the same.

 

The committee can replace the management company without a co-owner vote at all, though personally I would prefer to see the co-owners involved in that decision.

[cheeryble]

 

It depends on whether the OP is talking about sacking the JPM or the management company. The two are not necessarily the same.

 

The committee can replace the management company without a co-owner vote at all, though personally I would prefer to see the co-owners involved in that decision.

 

He speaks of the juristic management but you're right it can also be building manager and either can be good or bad

 

Agree all important decisions should be subject to a vote, even if it's done at a publicized open committee meeting.

 

 

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[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, aussienam said:

I therefore ask if any expat condo owners here know of the procedures to go about dismissing the juristic management and employing a new team? 

 

Are you talking about the JPM or a management company? The two are entirely different entities though the one may be connected to the other.

 

If you want to remove the JPM then it requires a co-owner vote with a majority equal to at least 25% of the entire building vote not just those present. To remove a management company requires no co-owner vote and the committee can do it following an internal vote of their own.

 

 

2 hours ago, aussienam said:

Oh just been told that the developer and its partners own the majority of condos so that whenever there are votes issues against management in AGMS, individual owners have no power.  So developer won't sack management if it is not in their vested interests.  I am screwed. 

 

No one entity (real or juristic) can hold more votes that the total of all other votes present at a GM. So if everyone else at the meeting is against your developer then he will always lose any vote. But it really has to be everyone. And of course that assumes that your JPM, who is responsible for the correct voting procedure, is not a crook. Big assumption.

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, Delight said:

JPM 's can be fined. In some circumstances  up to 50 ,000 Baht

 

And I dare say that happens in some civilised parts of Thailand. But not anywhere I know.

[KittenKong]

19 minutes ago, cheeryble said:

This is one of the dangers of moving into a new building. Unless all condos are sold......which can take a long time/never.....then the communal coffers don't get filled.

 

The developer should be paying the common fee for unsold units. However enforcing this is up to the JPM and the committee. If the JPM/committee is in bed with the developer (as they probably would be in a new building) then it's unlikely to happen.

[funandsuninbangkok]

2 hours ago, aussienam said:

Oh just been told that the developer and its partners own the majority of condos so that whenever there are votes issues against management in AGMS, individual owners have no power.  So developer won't sack management if it is not in their vested interests.  I am screwed. 

Another screwed investor in Thailand. Welcome and get in line to see the crooked lawyers next

[scubascuba3]

Oh just been told that the developer and its partners own the majority of condos so that whenever there are votes issues against management in AGMS, individual owners have no power.  So developer won't sack management if it is not in their vested interests.  I am screwed. 

What condo is it?

[Delight]

 As you say you are screwed . In fact you are legally screwed

 

It seems to me that you have 2 choices

1) Find some dirt on the JPM and pursue  him via the land office

 

That said if you were successful -then the next JPM is likely to be just as corrupt and useless.

 

2) just forget about it and just live with the symptoms of poor quality that you describe.

 

Personally I would seek and personally pay for legal advice.

Then , more than likely

Just accept 2. The legal advice would allow me to rest easier

[hdkane]

the condo committee can fire them...in my experience, committees and juristic people are thieves...and use the position to drain the common fund...YOU need to be on the committee to protect your investment...if it is only Thais, you can fully expect for money to disappear with fake billing and outright theft...

[KittenKong]

55 minutes ago, hdkane said:

the condo committee can fire them..

 

The committee can fire the management company. It cannot fire the JPM. Only a vote of co-owners at a GM can do that.

It is very important to understand the difference between the two jobs (and indeed the eventual third one: building manager).

 

 

56 minutes ago, hdkane said:

YOU need to be on the committee to protect your investment...if it is only Thais, you can fully expect for money to disappear with fake billing and outright theft...

 

In my experience Thais on building committees are no more or less dishonest than farangs on the same committee, and personally I would never trust anyone in building management or on a committee here. However Thais would probably be much more lackadaisical than farangs.

[bazza73]

I understand the Juristic Person in my condo has been replaced several times in the past 9 years I've been renting there.

And there have been rumours of embezzlement and unauthorised expenditures, none of which affect me.

However, if the JP or management company was to do something that affected me adversely, my response is easy - I leave.

It seems to me complaints about Juristic Persons are the rule here, not the exception.

 

[Hans Rayong]

2nd call AGM or EGM 33,34% of all shares.

[newnative]

     One suggestion.  You might form a Line group of owners and any long-term tenants that are interested.  We did this at the last condo my partner and I owned at and I think it was helpful in both keeping the owners informed and also involved.  The building manager was also in the Line group so we could easily report any problems to him using Line and get a response. 

     We posted notices about the new Line group at various places around the condo.  At first there weren't that many members but it gradually grew as word spread and I think there are over 100 members now.  A group like this can be helpful in getting management--and the Juristic--to listen to the owners and is much more effective than one lone voice.  If conditions are bad at your condo project, you might find other owners eager to join the group and work for some changes. 

[Delight]

 

Section 45 paragraph 2 states:

If one joint-owner owner has the votes more than half of the total votes, the number of votes shall be reduced to remain equivalent to the total votes of all other joint-owners.

 

So a crafty developer co owner will allocate himself say 49%.i.e less than half.

Given that the building has unsold apartments then his ‘partner in crime ‘has say 10%

Then developer will always win

If only he and his PIC show at a general meeting.

As I said earlier the OP is legally screwed

 

[smutcakes]

On August 28, 2560 BE at 4:42 PM, newnative said:

     One suggestion.  You might form a Line group of owners and any long-term tenants that are interested.  We did this at the last condo my partner and I owned at and I think it was helpful in both keeping the owners informed and also involved.  The building manager was also in the Line group so we could easily report any problems to him using Line and get a response. 

     We posted notices about the new Line group at various places around the condo.  At first there weren't that many members but it gradually grew as word spread and I think there are over 100 members now.  A group like this can be helpful in getting management--and the Juristic--to listen to the owners and is much more effective than one lone voice.  If conditions are bad at your condo project, you might find other owners eager to join the group and work for some changes. 

 

Whilst this is a nice idea i imagine it would soon become unbearable to any building manager. 

[newnative]

24 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

 

Whilst this is a nice idea i imagine it would soon become unbearable to any building manager. 

      Although I no longer live at the condo with the Line group I mentioned, I'm still in the group and it seems to continue to work well as a communication tool between the residents and management.  If a building manager finds hearing from residents "unbearable" he probably needs to be in another line of work.  If a resident is having a problem, he's going to report it one way or another.  And, the building manager is going to need to deal with it--whether he hears it in person or thru a Line message. 

[smutcakes]

23 minutes ago, newnative said:

      Although I no longer live at the condo with the Line group I mentioned, I'm still in the group and it seems to continue to work well as a communication tool between the residents and management.  If a building manager finds hearing from residents "unbearable" he probably needs to be in another line of work.  If a resident is having a problem, he's going to report it one way or another.  And, the building manager is going to need to deal with it--whether he hears it in person or thru a Line message. 

Issues should be relayed to the Building Manager office. 

They need time off as well. They are paid probably between 30-50K per month, if you expect your BM on duty 24 hours day other than an emergency then you need to pay them a hell of a lot more than that or you will go through a lot of managers, until such a time that you cannot find one anymore. Its a small industry and some buildings are renowned as very difficult and already have difficulty finding managers.

 

If your problem is not an emergency it should be taken to the BM office, that is what they have a team for.

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, smutcakes said:

Whilst this is a nice idea i imagine it would soon become unbearable to any building manager. 

 

Only to a bad manager. And who needs one of those?

[smutcakes]

44 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

Only to a bad manager. And who needs one of those?

Not at all. Things go wrong at buildings all the time, people cannot be on call at all times. As you know there are a huge amount of weirdos and crazies in Pattaya particularly, who wants them chasing them around on line all day and night about trivial issues which can be dealt with in office hours. Hotel managers are paid far more with high quality teams all around them, but you have to give people a break from work. Managers will just move to another building an understandably so. Building Management is a pretty thankless task at the best of times.

[newnative]

27 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

Issues should be relayed to the Building Manager office. 

They need time off as well. They are paid probably between 30-50K per month, if you expect your BM on duty 24 hours day other than an emergency then you need to pay them a hell of a lot more than that or you will go through a lot of managers, until such a time that you cannot find one anymore. Its a small industry and some buildings are renowned as very difficult and already have difficulty finding managers.

 

If your problem is not an emergency it should be taken to the BM office, that is what they have a team for.

      Certainly if I was having an emergency I would go to the office to seek an actual person to assist me but if I was, say, using the gym and I noticed a piece of equipment broken, using Line was an easy way to report the problem, perhaps including  a photo of where the problem was--and, at some point, the building manager would assign someone to fix the problem.  No big deal.     

      Regardless, it was not just used to report problems and most of the time was more of an informational tool.  I think most of the condo board members were on it and some of the time members were asking questions about condo rules and policies.  It was also used by management as one tool to announce things like meetings, fire alarm testing, power outages, anything special going on, and so forth.  I was amused recently when management posted photos of an assortment of clothing that had fallen off of balconies and been turned in.   What I liked best, though, was it was one way to keep in touch with my fellow condo residents.

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, smutcakes said:

Not at all. Things go wrong at buildings all the time, people cannot be on call at all times. As you know there are a huge amount of weirdos and crazies in Pattaya particularly, who wants them chasing them around on line all day and night about trivial issues which can be dealt with in office hours. Hotel managers are paid far more with high quality teams all around them, but you have to give people a break from work. Managers will just move to another building an understandably so. Building Management is a pretty thankless task at the best of times.

 

I think that in a condo building someone from management (manager, assistant, or some representative of a management company) should indeed be on call 24/7. It's part of what they are paid for. This especially applies in a large building. Up to them to decide whether what they are being called about requires immediate action or whether it can wait till the next business day. Either way, the request should be recorded in writing for all to see and the committee can consider later whether the decision was correct or not. If no one is on call then the problems simply dont get noted at all, which is the Thai way of dealing with problems: pretend they dont exist. I will never accept this as valid.

 

The manager is my building spends half the day with his thumb up his backside and the rest of the day playing Facebook. I dont think he is worth 10% of what we pay him. If he went elsewhere because he felt overworked we could replace him with a statue of Hanuman and get much better value and results. But he wont leave voluntarily because no one else would ever pay him the sort of money we do (not even mentioning the amount he earns from various scams, and from other activities that he performs in the building instead of his job). Indeed he would be lucky to get a job delivering pizzas and would be even luckier to keep it for more than a week.

[scubascuba3]

Using a Line group seems a great idea. Notifications can always be switched off at night if its stressing people out

 

 

[smutcakes]

9 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

I think that in a condo building someone from management (manager, assistant, or some representative of a management company) should indeed be on call 24/7. It's part of what they are paid for. This especially applies in a large building. Up to them to decide whether what they are being called about requires immediate action or whether it can wait till the next business day. Either way, the request should be recorded in writing for all to see and the committee can consider later whether the decision was correct or not. If no one is on call then the problems simply dont get noted at all, which is the Thai way of dealing with problems: pretend they dont exist. I will never accept this as valid.

 

The manager is my building spends half the day with his thumb up his backside and the rest of the day playing Facebook. I dont think he is worth 10% of what we pay him. If he went elsewhere because he felt overworked we could replace him with a statue of Hanuman and get much better value and results. But he wont leave voluntarily because no one else would ever pay him the sort of money we do (not even mentioning the amount he earns from various scams, and from other activities that he performs in the building instead of his job). Indeed he would be lucky to get a job delivering pizzas and would be even luckier to keep it for more than a week.

Can i ask how much you pay your management company?

[hawker9000]

I've always had the impression they're like HOA (Homeowners Associations) in the U.S.  It might be theoretically possible to replace them, but I've never heard of it happening.  At least HOA's can be successfully sued (firsthand experience).

 

 

[newnative]

3 hours ago, hawker9000 said:

I've always had the impression they're like HOA (Homeowners Associations) in the U.S.  It might be theoretically possible to replace them, but I've never heard of it happening.  At least HOA's can be successfully sued (firsthand experience).

 

 

It is possible, and not just theoretically.   Both the Juristic and the management company were replaced at the last condo project I lived at.