Yingluck ‘may seek UK asylum

[halloween]

1 minute ago, jayboy said:

Interesting.Thank you.Kasit is intriguing:despite his yellow record I believe he is a reasonable man who believes in democracy and indeed he has been quite outspoken in the last year or so..Yet he seems hampered by his middle class "tribal affiliations" if I can put it that way.Thaksin authoritarianism is his excuse (arguably a good one) but he finds it very hard to see the wishes of the majority as consistent with his version of democracy.Granted there must be checks and balances and elected dictatorships must be avoided, but this is the heart of the Thai problem.He says the upper and middle class are broadly happy with the Junta (true up to a point) but then denies there is a class aspect to the current Thai divisions.He goes on to say the yellow/Suthep demonstrations contained people from all walks of life.Yes, but the overwhelming majority were imported thugs from the South and Sino Thai urban middle class.So the question is do fundamentally decent people like Kasit accept that even if the Shins are taken out of the equation, there needs to be a massive shift in political and economic emphasis in Thailand, one of the most unequal societies on Earth?

Oh dear, how's ' demonstrations contained people from all walks of life.Yes, but the overwhelming majority were imported thugs from the South and Sino Thai urban middle class' for a little demonstrated bias. Last time I heard, it wasn't a crime to be 'Sino Thai' or 'middle class' however much some people like to look down on you from their perceived class position. Tell me, how would you describe the red protesters in 2010, or those attacking the anti-Yingluk protesters in 2014?

[jayboy]

Oh dear, how's ' demonstrations contained people from all walks of life.Yes, but the overwhelming majority were imported thugs from the South and Sino Thai urban middle class' for a little demonstrated bias. Last time I heard, it wasn't a crime to be 'Sino Thai' or 'middle class' however much some people like to look down on you from their perceived class position. Tell me, how would you describe the red protesters in 2010, or those attacking the anti-Yingluk protesters in 2014?

In the politest possible way please don't clutter up discussions taking place among the grown ups.There are plenty of other places you can rant and rave.

For the record I have nothing against the Sino Thai middle class which includes most of my Thai friends.


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[LannaGuy]

26 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Interesting.Thank you.Kasit is intriguing:despite his yellow record I believe he is a reasonable man who believes in democracy and indeed he has been quite outspoken in the last year or so..Yet he seems hampered by his middle class "tribal affiliations" if I can put it that way.Thaksin authoritarianism is his excuse (arguably a good one) but he finds it very hard to see the wishes of the majority as consistent with his version of democracy.Granted there must be checks and balances and elected dictatorships must be avoided, but this is the heart of the Thai problem.He says the upper and middle class are broadly happy with the Junta (true up to a point) but then denies there is a class aspect to the current Thai divisions.He goes on to say the yellow/Suthep demonstrations contained people from all walks of life.Yes, but the overwhelming majority were imported thugs from the South and Sino Thai urban middle class.So the question is do fundamentally decent people like Kasit accept that even if the Shins are taken out of the equation, there needs to be a massive shift in political and economic emphasis in Thailand, one of the most unequal societies on Earth?

Yes the class comment at the end I think is wrong and naive but, broadly, it was a good discussion.

[Ricardo]

1 hour ago, LannaGuy said:

 

You are rude Halloween and there is no need for it. You treat alternative opinion as if we are stupid, 'Shin fans' or whatever. You can make some sound points but they are dismissed by your overbearing style IMHO. None of us 100% right and we all have bias but we can debate with grace.  

 

I feel much the same about being called a 'junta fanboi' or a fascist, which I sometimes am, your final sentance is spot-on !  We all have our own POV, but can debate without insults, leave that to the short-lived posters who come & go.

 

The Al-Jazeera piece was reasonably-balanced, as I'd expect from them, there were a number of minor errors IMO which I won't list, because I don't want to go off-thread. Thanks for posting the link !

 

 

[halloween]

55 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

In the politest possible way please don't clutter up discussions taking place among the grown ups.There are plenty of other places you can rant and rave.

For the record I have nothing against the Sino Thai middle class which includes most of my Thai friends.


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No, really, I would like to know how you these perceive those far more violent groups if that is your view of those prepared to stand up against obvious government waste and corruption. Did your urban middle class friends join the protest, or were they supporters of electoral bribes and massive waste of government resources?

[LannaGuy]

54 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

 

I feel much the same about being called a 'junta fanboi' or a fascist, which I sometimes am, your final sentance is spot-on !  We all have our own POV, but can debate without insults, leave that to the short-lived posters who come & go.

 

The Al-Jazeera piece was reasonably-balanced, as I'd expect from them, there were a number of minor errors IMO which I won't list, because I don't want to go off-thread. Thanks for posting the link !

 

 

Honour requires me saying I actually copied it from a previous poster so thanks to him!   

[jayboy]

52 minutes ago, halloween said:

No, really, I would like to know how you these perceive those far more violent groups if that is your view of those prepared to stand up against obvious government waste and corruption. Did your urban middle class friends join the protest, or were they supporters of electoral bribes and massive waste of government resources?

If you insist, though from experience I'm aware you aren't really interested in examining your prejudices just regurgitating the same old stale myths.

 

Once again you come up with a dishonest prescriptive definition that makes no real sense.It is simply not the case that the demonstrations were protests against government waste and corruption.I don't deny the decent motives of some at the beginning but in the main they were just organised middle class mobs seeking to overthrow an elected government.Shame on Abhisit, Korn etc for going along with them.

 

Yes many of my friends participated in the protests.As a result I know exactly what really prompted them to attend - hatred of Thaksin, contempt for the rural Thai who supported him and determination that the status quo whereby unelected elites pull the strings should not change.Obviously these concerns were not articulated initially but became very clear in discussion.

 

It's true I don't have much respect for the mainly Sino Thai Bangkok middle class.The great anthropologist Benedict Anderson said it best:

 

Money quote:   "selfish, uncultured, consumerist, and  without any decent vision of the future of the country".

 

"So far as I know, Bangkok has yet to give birth to a great novelist, poet, playwright, philosopher, architect, or social thinker.  It is Kongkhaen, not Bangkok, that gave  birth to Apichatpong Weerasetakul who, barely in his 40s, is internationally regarded as among the very top of  world cinema directors, and this year won the Palme d’Or at Cannes. You might have expected that an artist of this calibre would be the object of immense pride by a bourgeoisie always anxious to show its international credentials.  But no, the bourgeoisie continues passively to swallow up  Hollywood junk,  repetitive Chinese martial arts junk, imported videogames and trashy soaps.   Middle class Bangkok, if one reads the advertisements,  is interested only in good food,  fashions from abroad,  expensive resorts, and shopping trips in East Asia and Europe.  It is really hard to find a beautiful public building in the Thai capital, and there is no Thai temple that can beat Wat Xian Thong in Luang Prabang.    The shameful hubbub about Preah Wihan is one way of covering up what should be obvious to anyone,  i.e. that there are no Thai-thai buildings than can compare with Cambodia’s  Angkor,  Java’s Borobudur, or Burma’s Pukan. One can suspect that Bangkok has a hidden inferiority complex in this regard.  Two minutes at Preah Wihan tells anyone with brains that this gorgeous building is Khmer not Thai, so some Thais can’t bear this, so it has to be ‘ours.’

It would be difficult to expect anything from a capital city middle class of this type.  It timidly supported the demonstrations of October 73, but turned its back on the students in 1976.  It timidly supported the early Thaksin social policies, but very soon turned against him, and now expresses itself through noisy support for the monarchy and the Yellows.   I should say that in this way the Bangkok bourgeoisie isn’t far from that of Manila, Kuala Lumpur, Singapore and Jakarta: timid, selfish, uncultured, consumerist, and  without any decent vision of the future of the country."

Edited August 28, 2017 by jayboy

[maddox41]

If your dodgy and a criminal go to the the Uk  Seems to be the  in place to go?? 

But why would any country allow her to stay and how is the Red bull guy living there is he on a education visa??, 

We the normal folk can't stay so why can they even with money what excuse do they give and I thought the uk wasn't corrupt in immigration department obvouisly not

[halloween]

27 minutes ago, jayboy said:

If you insist, though from experience I'm aware you aren't really interested in examining your prejudices just regurgitating the same old stale myths.

 

Once again you come up with a dishonest prescriptive definition that makes no real sense.It is simply not the case that the demonstrations were protests against government waste and corruption.I don't deny the decent motives of some at the beginning but in the main they were just organised middle class mobs seeking to overthrow an elected government.Shame on Abhisit, Korn etc for going along with them.

 

Yes many of my friends participated in the protests.As a result I know exactly what really prompted them to attend - hatred of Thaksin, contempt for the rural Thai who supported him and determination that the status quo whereby unelected elites pull the strings should not change.Obviously these concerns were not articulated initially but became very clear in discussion.

 

It's true I don't have much respect for the mainly Sino Thai Bangkok middle class.The great anthropologist Benedict Anderson said it best:

 

Money quote:   "selfish, uncultured, consumerist, and  without any decent vision of the future of the country".

 

"So far as I know, Bangkok has yet to give birth to a great novelist, poet, playwright, philosopher, architect, or social thinker.  It is Kongkhaen, not Bangkok, that gave  birth to Apichatpong Weerasetakul who, barely in his 40s, is internationally regarded as among the very top of  world cinema directors, and this year won the Palme d’Or at Cannes. You might have expected that an artist of this calibre would be the object of immense pride by a bourgeoisie always anxious to show its international credentials.  But no, the bourgeoisie continues passively to swallow up  Hollywood junk,  repetitive Chinese martial arts junk, imported videogames and trashy soaps.   Middle class Bangkok, if one reads the advertisements,  is interested only in good food,  fashions from abroad,  expensive resorts, and shopping trips in East Asia and Europe.  It is really hard to find a beautiful public building in the Thai capital, and there is no Thai temple that can beat Wat Xian Thong in Luang Prabang.    The shameful hubbub about Preah Wihan is one way of covering up what should be obvious to anyone,  i.e. that there are no Thai-thai buildings than can compare with Cambodia’s  Angkor,  Java’s Borobudur, or Burma’s Pukan. One can suspect that Bangkok has a hidden inferiority complex in this regard.  Two minutes at Preah Wihan tells anyone with brains that this gorgeous building is Khmer not Thai, so some Thais can’t bear this, so it has to be ‘ours.’

It would be difficult to expect anything from a capital city middle class of this type.  It timidly supported the demonstrations of October 73, but turned its back on the students in 1976.  It timidly supported the early Thaksin social policies, but very soon turned against him, and now expresses itself through noisy support for the monarchy and the Yellows.   I should say that in this way the Bangkok bourgeoisie isn’t far from that of Manila, Kuala Lumpur, Singapore and Jakarta: timid, selfish, uncultured, consumerist, and  without any decent vision of the future of the country."

And this how you regard the people you describe as "friends"? I wonder what they call the patronising snob they associate with.

 

BTW in your rant, you never got around to the basic question. If those opposing Yingluk  ' the overwhelming majority were imported thugs from the South and Sino Thai urban middle class' how do you regard those protesting in 2010, and attacking the anti-Yingluk protesters? With fond affection as fighters for democracy?

[jayboy]

And this how you regard the people you describe as "friends"? I wonder what they call the patronising snob they associate with.
 
BTW in your rant, you never got around to the basic question. If those opposing Yingluk  ' the overwhelming majority were imported thugs from the South and Sino Thai urban middle class' how do you regard those protesting in 2010, and attacking the anti-Yingluk protesters? With fond affection as fighters for democracy?

I thought I made it clear that a generalisation was being made.I was not referring to individuals.I assumed even you might grasp that.

What you describe as my rant is in fact a direct quotation from one of the most perceptive and eminent social scientists of our age.Probably beyond your capacity to absorb but others may be interested.

The attacks on the anti Yingluck protestors as you well know were on a minor scale and also as you very well know there was violence on the other side.I am aware that the former has been grossly magnified as part of the propaganda campaign leading up to the coup - rather like the farmer suicide angle.Only the very gullible actually believe that was really significant.


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[ovi1kanobi]

4 hours ago, hugh2121 said:

Lies????

 

The same charge they used to get rid of her brother, another democratically elected PM. Do the courts and the judges want to see Pheu Thai in power? Are they red or yellow supporters? Who has won every election since 2001? It matters not one bit what anyone thinks of them, including you, me and everyone else. They are the party the majority of Thai people want and who they vote for in elections. Are they the only ones who could be accused of "abuse of power? Did they grant themselves immunity in advance for any wrongdoing?

 

It matters little to me who has power in Thailand as it seems to affect me very little but I do believe in democracy. I also believe that the police and the armed forces should do the bidding of their elected government with the courts interpreting the laws which are passed by that government. 

thaksin was not pm when he ran away from his conviction. And it was not the same charge.

Edited August 28, 2017 by ovi1kanobi

[ianf]

19 hours ago, baboon said:

You talk about taking a dispassionate view then launch into a lengthy phillipic against one side. Bang goes your credibility there...

If you take your blinkers off and read my post with an open minds you'll note that there is no polemic. Only facts.

[tgeezer]

Chaiyan Chaiyaporn, a political science lecturer at Chulalongkorn University, said if the former PM really had been helped to flee by people in power, “that would be damaging to the justice system and confidence in the country’s security”.

LOL!
 
Did anyone really have any confidence in either the justice system or the country's "security" (Erawan Shrine bombing, anyone?) to begin with?

I think people have confidence in the system when their 'side' holds the reins of power but the administration of justice is no more strict than any other aspect life in Thailand. How can the government be held responsible for non compliance with laws and rules they make? It is quite possible that there was no deal by the top man but he has to delegate responsibility to others. This outcome is not a bad one.


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[baboon]

11 minutes ago, ianf said:

If you take your blinkers off and read my post with an open minds you'll note that there is no polemic. Only facts.

I did read it and it is exactly as I described it.

[ianf]

1 hour ago, baboon said:

I did read it and it is exactly as I described it.

You think so? How sad!

[sjaak327]

8 hours ago, halloween said:

A dutch poster who misrepresents what is written either doesn't understand the language or is trolling for response. Do you believe "I tend to the supposition" means that I believes "most definitely" or "must have" occurred? If so I can only suggest a course in remedial English yourself.

"A theoretical situation endorsed by the reds because it suits their agenda; it sounds so much better than the filthy rich criminal bribed her way out. " 

 

this is what you posted. Now where does I tend to supposition comes into play. You posted that later. Don't try and play the language card, I understood you perfectly well. Granted, most definitely is probably an exaggeration, but that line (and that was all you posted) does seem to imply you think she bribed her way out. Or in other words, your beloved Junta are utterly incompetent. But we already knew that of course...

[halloween]

23 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

"A theoretical situation endorsed by the reds because it suits their agenda; it sounds so much better than the filthy rich criminal bribed her way out. " 

 

this is what you posted. Now where does I tend to supposition comes into play. You posted that later. Don't try and play the language card, I understood you perfectly well. Granted, most definitely is probably an exaggeration, but that line (and that was all you posted) does seem to imply you think she bribed her way out. Or in other words, your beloved Junta are utterly incompetent. But we already knew that of course...

Quite obviously you don't. Theoretical = unproven, confined to theory or speculation. The statement is what it is, that the situation is unproven but it suits you to believe it, and is more politically palatable than filthy rich criminal bribed her way out.

In a later statement "I tend to supposition" means that there is no proof, but given the alternatives the filthy rich criminal bribed her way out seems most likely to me, because I accept that the Shinawatras have ample funds to tempt most Thai low level workers, and are quite adept at bribing people to commit criminal acts.

What you wish to infer from plain statements is up to you, but don't try to make your inference what I wrote with 'most definitely' and 'must believe', they are not "probable exaggeration" they are lies.

 

BTW claiming an entire organisation is utterly incompetent because a few lowly members were (theoretically) susceptible to bribes from filthy rich criminals is illogical nonsense

[oldlakey]

10 hours ago, hawker9000 said:

LOL.  I think most people would agree that an ex-PM certainly qualifies as "statesperson" AND "politician".   (Just maybe not a particularly good one or honest one...)

Not me mate, Family Business, the clue in my thinking is contained in the word Genuine

No matter

[oldlakey]

10 hours ago, inThailand said:

She was a willing puppet of a convicted criminal.

 

It is ironic, she was to expunge him so he could return and now she's in the same boat.

Quite, my reply to A. N. Other in Post 383 I think explains my thinking on this matter

 

[sjaak327]

15 minutes ago, halloween said:

Quite obviously you don't. Theoretical = unproven, confined to theory or speculation. The statement is what it is, that the situation is unproven but it suits you to believe it, and is more politically palatable than filthy rich criminal bribed her way out.

In a later statement "I tend to supposition" means that there is no proof, but given the alternatives the filthy rich criminal bribed her way out seems most likely to me, because I accept that the Shinawatras have ample funds to tempt most Thai low level workers, and are quite adept at bribing people to commit criminal acts.

What you wish to infer from plain statements is up to you, but don't try to make your inference what I wrote with 'most definitely' and 'must believe', they are not "probable exaggeration" they are lies.

 

BTW claiming an entire organisation is utterly incompetent because a few lowly members were (theoretically) susceptible to bribes from filthy rich criminals is illogical nonsense

Oh give it up, lies ? You just confirmed that you seem to believe they bribed their way out of trouble. I know you aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I do believe most people would go for the far more logical and likely option that she did receive help to flee the country, and quite possibly no bribes were even involved. This is a high profile suspect, that was supposedly being watched 24/7 and yet she was able to simple pack up and leave. 

 

Btw, in the case that indeed bribes were the key to her escape, yep utter incompetence. A good "organization" would not allow that bribing a few "lowly members"  would be all that is needed to escape. 

[halloween]

25 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

Oh give it up, lies ? You just confirmed that you seem to believe they bribed their way out of trouble. I know you aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I do believe most people would go for the far more logical and likely option that she did receive help to flee the country, and quite possibly no bribes were even involved. This is a high profile suspect, that was supposedly being watched 24/7 and yet she was able to simple pack up and leave. 

 

Btw, in the case that indeed bribes were the key to her escape, yep utter incompetence. A good "organization" would not allow that bribing a few "lowly members"  would be all that is needed to escape. 

Take your lack of comprehension elsewhere. I do not believe anything without evidence, nor do I insist others do. Your refusal to accept guilt with ample evidence coupled with a willingness to embrace supposition, is totally hypocritical. Your lack of logic is also extremely galling, making it impossible to have a conversation that makes sense. Write what you want, I won't be seeing it.

[sjaak327]

26 minutes ago, halloween said:

Take your lack of comprehension elsewhere. I do not believe anything without evidence, nor do I insist others do. Your refusal to accept guilt with ample evidence coupled with a willingness to embrace supposition, is totally hypocritical. Your lack of logic is also extremely galling, making it impossible to have a conversation that makes sense. Write what you want, I won't be seeing it.

Pot Kettle black. Nothing more needs to be said. While you are at it, learn some manners. 

[Becker]

10 hours ago, halloween said:

Your point was that protest was allowed under Yingluk but not the junta. Protesters under the junta may be arrested, protesters under Yingluk were regularly shot at, bombed, injured and killed by her supporters while the BIB refused to intervene. Stray rounds killed at least 6 not even involved with the protest.

Hooray for red democracy!

Hooray is a strong word and not one I would use - but that's up to you. Of course, you just had to throw in a deflection calling it "red democracy" when it was just plain democracy. You do remember that the Shins won several elections in a row absolutely crushing the dems, right?

Of, and instances of violence from any side is not an excuse to overthrow a legal government and suspend basic human rights.

[halloween]

1 hour ago, Becker said:

Hooray is a strong word and not one I would use - but that's up to you. Of course, you just had to throw in a deflection calling it "red democracy" when it was just plain democracy. You do remember that the Shins won several elections in a row absolutely crushing the dems, right?

Of, and instances of violence from any side is not an excuse to overthrow a legal government and suspend basic human rights.

Well it was unrecognisable as any other form of democracy, so red democracy it is.

 

Instances of violence, by government supporters and with the government and police refusing to act to stop it isn't enough? Throw in some rampant and unchecked corruption, and total incompetence in managing state finances was more than enough.

 

But your point was that protest was allowed under Yingluk, and not the junta. In fact, under both protest was/is discouraged, the junta just use less violent means.

[Becker]

1 minute ago, halloween said:

Well it was unrecognisable as any other form of democracy, so red democracy it is.

Unrecognisable? To you, obviously. To the world at large, not so much.

[Next stop NK]

So far all is based on rumors and wishful thinking from the junta that she fled the country, can anyone at all confirm she is even alive?

[Kieran00001]

6 minutes ago, Next stop NK said:

So far all is based on rumors and wishful thinking from the junta that she fled the country, can anyone at all confirm she is even alive?

 

No, it is all based on her former aids giving information to the press, the junta is listening to them as they are the only people who have a clue,  and if she had failed to reach her destination then it would be all over the international news, don't worry, no chance is she dead.

[ovi1kanobi]

3 hours ago, Becker said:

Hooray is a strong word and not one I would use - but that's up to you. Of course, you just had to throw in a deflection calling it "red democracy" when it was just plain democracy. You do remember that the Shins won several elections in a row absolutely crushing the dems, right?

Of, and instances of violence from any side is not an excuse to overthrow a legal government and suspend basic human rights.

 You do remember, they paid five hundred baht, for every vote. Or did that slip your mind? And yes I saw the money change hands. Buying votes, does not make a legal election.

[baboon]

14 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

And you have prove it was Yingluck (or her government) that did that. Dying to see that evidence. 

 

 

Mate, he is baiting. Don't give him what he wants.

[Becker]

2 minutes ago, ovi1kanobi said:

 You do remember, they paid five hundred baht, for every vote. Or did that slip your mind? And yes I saw the money change hands. Buying votes, does not make a legal election.

So they paid every voter 500 Baht..... and you saw it happen?

Well then, that's it - I've had enough! Why didn't the silly buggers just stage a coup? That way they'd be in power for free!