sambum

Moving to Forum Support but mesquite is on the money.

Thanks, but can't find it in Forum Support (yet?)

I don't know if this is the correct forum or procedure, but can anyone tell me why I keep getting this message? I don't seem to have used over elaborate language, or posted many replies, but I frequently get this message when I try to reply to a post.

Quote jdinasia..........

LOL

Fact : no connection to the RTP more than most long-term expats. I can only assume you don't live in Thailand if you know no police officers.

Fact : I can't find the source of your quote about the rather discredited Khunying Pornthip, but I suspect it is from Andrew Drummond, who we can't use here,

Fact: if in your conflating of the RTP and the courts you insist on endemic corruption from top to bottom; then the logical result is that if the defendants are acquitted it is because of corruption.

In other words, it is a zero sum argument.

Not very convincing.......

Quote jdinasia: “Fact : no connection to the RTP more than most long-term expats. I can only assume you don't live in Thailand if you know no police officers”.

Wrong on a couple of counts. Firstly you are wrong about me not living here because I do, and secondly on your assumption that if I lived here I would know some police officers………you are wrong again because I don't know any, nor would I want to.

Quote jdinasia. “Fact: I can't find the source of your quote about the rather discredited Khunying Pornthip, but I suspect it is from Andrew Drummond, who we can't use here”

A very weak argument indeed and I will list some other sources below, however just because it appeared in one of the capitals top newspapers, or has been quoted by Andrew Drummond, whose material we can't quote here, doesn't mean to say that you can't look it up for yourself, now does it?

Others with reference to Dr Porntip include: –

http://www.irrawaddy...estigation.html or http://www.schoenes-thailand.at/mordfall-koh-tao-porntip-kritisiert-unprofessionelle-ermittlungen/ or http://time.com/3487462/thailand-koh-tao-murders-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-zaw-lin-win-zaw-htun/

And: “Police botched every forensic stage of the investigation so badly that it cannot be un-botched, starting with contamination of the crime scene through to DNA tests,” it said.

“It is the opinion of world-renowned forensic expert Porntip Rojanasunan, appointed as the country’s top forensic investigator by (junta leader and Prime Minister) Gen [Chan-ocha] Prayuth, personally.

The public believes Dr Porntip.” http://www.mizzima.com/mizzima-news/regional/item/13709-koh-tao-murders-retraction-denied-say-thai-police

Quote jdinasia: “Fact: if in your conflating of the RTP and the courts you insist on endemic corruption from top to bottom; then the logical result is that if the defendants are acquitted it is because of corruption”.

“In other words, it is a zero sum argument”.

Another flaw in what is a poor argument all round. If the defendants are found guilty then money changing hands could have influenced the result. If they are found not guilty, then obviously enough money wasn't paid.

Now a suggestion for you: – go back and review all of the police statements from day one and read them carefully and see how they contradict one another (take your time because there are a lot of them); then look at the photographs of the crime scene and how just about all and sundry were allowed to walk over it; then look at the “crime re-enactment” and finally look at Doctor Porntip’s comments on any website you wish, and if you still believe that the RTP have done a good job, then everyone who posts here will know that you do not have an objective viewpoint.

Q E D.

Congrats, you are the only expat I know outside of a few in Pattaya, that doesn't know any police here. ( BTW my connections are all military not police)

Sadly Khunying Pornthip is discredited. I know her and she is pretty awesome, but she also backed the efficacy of the GT200'S in a forensic role.

I have said from the beginning that the investigation is flawed, but I don't believe it is fatally flawed....

I'll get back to you on the quotes, but the onus is on the person posting the quote to provide the link.

No, don't bother to get back to me on anything as it is just not worth my time, and I will have to do what many others have done and put you on the ignore button.

You state here that, "my connections are all military not police", Yet a few posts back you state, "other than having a few casual friends that are police"..........So which is it.......which one is the lie?

To blithely state that Dr Porntip is discredited because of her support for the GT 200s shows your lack of ability to see past one mistake, and to not acknowledge her distinguished career because you need to support your case in this matter (pitiful)..........

This from Wiki on Dr Porntip.

“During the Thaksin Shinawatra government, she repeatedly publicly accused the police of abuses.

After the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, Pornthip supervised the effort to identify the tsunami victims in the Phang Nga region. She and her team were widely praised for their hard work and dedication.

Her life story and her work in Phang Nga were documented in the 2004 National Geographic documentary Crime Scene Bangkok.

In April 2010, she was appointed to the Center for the Resolution of the Emergency Situation or CRES (previously known as the Center for the Administration of Public Order), a military organization charged with maintaining peace and order within Bangkok and the surrounding provinces during the massive anti-government protests in 2010.

Pornthip's autobiography, which details her life and most prominent cases, has been translated into English and available through Amazon at. In the book, Pornthip reiterates problems with state authorities in obtaining justice for those subject to injustice, a theme carried throughout the book”.

On 20 June 2014, media reports stated that Ponthip was recently ordered by Thailand's ruling junta to take over the Thai Forensics Institute and to "make a clean sweep" in reorganizing it.

Yes she was a supporter of the now discredited GT 200 “bomb detector” as were the Thai Army, RTP, Air Force, customs and other countries such as Mexico and India, but I would trust her judgement (as do the Thai public) over the corrupt RTP any day.

And finally/laughably you state that "the onus is on the person posting the quote to provide the link"..........and you know full well that certain links cannot be published here and I have already pointed you in the direction of some information which supports the woeful handling of this case, but according to you, you can't read it because I haven't published the links. Now how narrow-minded and stupid is that!

As I said, read all of the RTP reports from day one and see just what a complete and utter shambles this whole thing is, and there is absolutely no hope of a fair trial for these two poor unfortunates.

Finally, as I said previously, don't bother to get back to me because I will apply a well-known saying that I believe applies to you: –

“There are none so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see”.

" ......rather discredited Khunying Pornthip," Doesn't sound "rather discredited" to me, and obviously a lot of people who are far better qualified than me to assess her capabilities, as per the instances detailed above.

Quote jdinasia..........

LOL

Fact : no connection to the RTP more than most long-term expats. I can only assume you don't live in Thailand if you know no police officers.

Fact : I can't find the source of your quote about the rather discredited Khunying Pornthip, but I suspect it is from Andrew Drummond, who we can't use here,

Fact: if in your conflating of the RTP and the courts you insist on endemic corruption from top to bottom; then the logical result is that if the defendants are acquitted it is because of corruption.

In other words, it is a zero sum argument.

Not very convincing.......

Quote jdinasia: “Fact : no connection to the RTP more than most long-term expats. I can only assume you don't live in Thailand if you know no police officers”.

Wrong on a couple of counts. Firstly you are wrong about me not living here because I do, and secondly on your assumption that if I lived here I would know some police officers………you are wrong again because I don't know any, nor would I want to.

Quote jdinasia. “Fact: I can't find the source of your quote about the rather discredited Khunying Pornthip, but I suspect it is from Andrew Drummond, who we can't use here”

A very weak argument indeed and I will list some other sources below, however just because it appeared in one of the capitals top newspapers, or has been quoted by Andrew Drummond, whose material we can't quote here, doesn't mean to say that you can't look it up for yourself, now does it?

Others with reference to Dr Porntip include: –

http://www.irrawaddy...estigation.html or http://www.schoenes-thailand.at/mordfall-koh-tao-porntip-kritisiert-unprofessionelle-ermittlungen/ or http://time.com/3487462/thailand-koh-tao-murders-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-zaw-lin-win-zaw-htun/

And: “Police botched every forensic stage of the investigation so badly that it cannot be un-botched, starting with contamination of the crime scene through to DNA tests,” it said.

“It is the opinion of world-renowned forensic expert Porntip Rojanasunan, appointed as the country’s top forensic investigator by (junta leader and Prime Minister) Gen [Chan-ocha] Prayuth, personally.

The public believes Dr Porntip.” http://www.mizzima.com/mizzima-news/regional/item/13709-koh-tao-murders-retraction-denied-say-thai-police

Quote jdinasia: “Fact: if in your conflating of the RTP and the courts you insist on endemic corruption from top to bottom; then the logical result is that if the defendants are acquitted it is because of corruption”.

“In other words, it is a zero sum argument”.

Another flaw in what is a poor argument all round. If the defendants are found guilty then money changing hands could have influenced the result. If they are found not guilty, then obviously enough money wasn't paid.

Now a suggestion for you: – go back and review all of the police statements from day one and read them carefully and see how they contradict one another (take your time because there are a lot of them); then look at the photographs of the crime scene and how just about all and sundry were allowed to walk over it; then look at the “crime re-enactment” and finally look at Doctor Porntip’s comments on any website you wish, and if you still believe that the RTP have done a good job, then everyone who posts here will know that you do not have an objective viewpoint.

Q E D.

Congrats, you are the only expat I know outside of a few in Pattaya, that doesn't know any police here. ( BTW my connections are all military not police)

Sadly Khunying Pornthip is discredited. I know her and she is pretty awesome, but she also backed the efficacy of the GT200'S in a forensic role.

I have said from the beginning that the investigation is flawed, but I don't believe it is fatally flawed....

I'll get back to you on the quotes, but the onus is on the person posting the quote to provide the link.

" Wrong on a couple of counts. Firstly you are wrong about me not living here because I do, and secondly on your assumption that if I lived here I would know some police officers………you are wrong again because I don't know any, nor would I want to."

Bravo, Xylophone - my sentiments entirely! I have been living here for quite a few years and neither I or any of my ex pat friends (that I know of) know, or have any connections with the police, and like yourself, don't want to.

Quote jdinasia: “Fact : no connection to the RTP more than most long-term expats. I can only assume you don't live in Thailand if you know no police officers”.

Absolutely ridiculous statement to assume that to live in Thailand you need to know some police officers.

So your argument hinges on the accused not playing along with the reconstruction; did it occur to you that they have strong motives to discredit the process by doing so?

In any case, obviously the police thought they have enough evidence to arrest them men before the reconstruction, so the case will be based on that evidence, rather than the reconstruction.

So why bother having the reconstruction anyway? And as Stephen Terry said, if there was none of David's DNA on the hoe, why strike the actor David with a dustpan hoe?

Why? probably for self promotion, secondarily they may have expected to learn something from it. Why the dustpan twice? maybe that's all they had at hand, maybe they didn't remember all the details (they claimed to had been drunk at the time after all), who knows?, so again, the evidence presented in court is what will decide the case.

"Self promotion"? "that's all they had at hand" Utter garbage

You logic is flawed, "you don't know if it's not true" is a fallacy. I don't know that you are not, let's say, a bank robber, should I then assume that you are as the default position? Of course not, it's a ridiculous line of reasoning.

The people claiming that there is a conspiracy to hide the truth and stitch up the Burmese have the onus of supporting their claim, it's extremely easy to make things up and then ask people "prove me wrong", but the only thing that proves is that they can't prove their case using actual evidence and facts.

Okay, start with viewing the re-enactment scene (video posted on the LA site) which was unlawfully directed by the RTP. (You're probably aware that the RTP are not permitted to engage with the suspects during a re-enactment). Unless the B2 are very good actors, there is enough visual evidence to conclude that they knew nothing about how they were supposed to have committed the murders. for example, striking the David actor with a dustpan hoe is a fallacy as the actual hoe didn't have any of David's DNA on it, as admitted by the RTP.

I would suggest any reasonable person watching this would start to question the integrity of the RTP. On the balance of probability, two scapegoats were found to carry the can, and wrap up the investigation.

So your argument hinges on the accused not playing along with the reconstruction; did it occur to you that they have strong motives to discredit the process by doing so?

In any case, obviously the police thought they have enough evidence to arrest them men before the reconstruction, so the case will be based on that evidence, rather than the reconstruction.

So why bother having the reconstruction anyway? And as Stephen Terry said, if there was none of David's DNA on the hoe, why strike the actor David with a dustpan hoe?

On Tuesday Thai junta chief and prime minister Prayut Chan-Ocha appeared to call into question the victims' conduct in addition to the perpetrators of the attack.

'We have to look into the behaviour of the other party too because this kind of incident should not happen to anybody and it has affected our image,' he told reporters, referring to the two tourists.

Police earlier said the pair had been seen partying at a local bar just hours before they died.

Sky News 16th Sept.

This statement was made the day after the murders by the prime minister. When I first head it it seemed an outrageous and insensitive statement to make. But now after all that has passed in the investigation, I am left wondering whether this was not just a stupid passing remark founded on nothing, but that the 'victims' conduct'/'behaviour' could be related to an argument that took place in the bar. If Mon was allowed all over the crime scene with the police, no doubt he also had plenty to tell them about his side of the story which may have painted a bleak picture of the victims behaviour before they were murdered. Pure speculation on my part of course. Anything for justice.

How does "pure speculation" benefit justice?

Facts benefit justice, pure speculation detracts from justice.

Pure speculation may warrant investigation, possibly leading to facts being discovered, which in turn may affect the outcome/justice of the case .

Ah.... That explains my tax dollars being spent on the pure speculation that the world is flat

...

Despite us knowing that it is not.

Ah, that explains a lot! I also would certainly not be happy if the government of my country was spending money on such a project! However, the fact remains that people originally thought that the world was flat, but some people (scientists, adventurers etc) speculated that it was not, and as we now know the outcome (due to their investigating the facts) that it is in fact round. (Or to be more exact, I think an "oblate spheroid" was how my teacher described it!)

No vested interests on my part, but thanks for clarification on your about face regarding the families wishes. I understand that some people have an intense need for it not to be the 2 Burmese men who are defendants. Such a strong need that they will ignore the only statements coming from the families. The only statements from those who were briefed by the UK police. These same people will ignore the fact that the families statements proved that sub judice doesn't apply. Thus we have no valid reason not to have heard from others.... But hey...

BTW - you do realize that you compared yourself to the RTP don't you?

Umm, trolling, baiting, I have to admit, you are very good at it! But why can you not understand that the way this is going, there is no way that it is going to be a "fair and transparent" trial? (Buzz words of the moment)

But there again, as you say, this is Thailand and the law works differently here - Prosecution 1 Defence 0 and the "game" hasn't even started yet!

do we know for sure it was not the guitar men?

Since then the police released them and then kept looking for the "guitar men", the only logical answer is that no, they were not the same men.

So now we have 2 sets of 3 "guitar men"? I set of 3 that they questioned and released, and another set of 3 that they kept looking for? Sounds like they shouldn't have let our guitar playing friend Sean go (sorry - I meant to say - aided him in leaving) He might have been playing in a trio on the beach that night!

A very sensetive case not only for the accused but for the inhabitants of Koh Toa who will have more of their beloved island in the international news, negative for all. I apologise for my offence post but only wanted to support the islanders who have lived through this tragedy, don't take it out on them was all I wanted to say.

"A very sensetive case not only for the accused......" is a bit of an understatement, don't you think? And to say that you " only wanted to support the islanders who have lived through this tragedy" is a bit of a contradiction to some of your earlier posts where you just wanted the case closed come hell or high water! Whether the 2 Burmese were guilty or innocent, you didn't seem to give a damn- you just wanted to get back to your diving and "friends" in Koh Tao.

As you have already decided they are guilty, then I suppose it doesn't matter if they get a trial, fair or otherwise

No, I haven't decided they are guilty, I'm waiting for the development of the trial and to see how the evidence pans out.

If someone has an opinion that differs from yours on this matter, according to you they have already decided that the suspects are innocent. But you are "waiting for the development of the trial" Pull the other one - it's got balls bells on!

How to spell corroberate.

I do think the Burmese are not guilty and for a reason.

I have not seen one piece of evidence to surgest they killed or raped.

They were on the beach that night, they have never denied that. But, there were many people on that beach.

I believe Sean was at the very least a witness to these murders, and personally believe he was involved to a far greater level. Why was he threatened with his life? Why did he leave the Island quickly with the assistance of the local police? Cover up that's why, not for Sean personally, but to keep Seans friends out of the spotlight.

I have stated that it would be an act of evil for Thailand to convict and execute the two Burmese suspects for this crime.

I would like to make a correction.

It would be an act of EVIL for the Thai and British Governments to allow these two men to be scapegoats for the murder of the two British victims.

David Cameron hang your head in shame, if you consider yourself a decent human being, please intervene. Release the details of the British Police Report to the Burmese defence lawyers immediately.

The two Burmese deserve a fair and honest trial. They are not getting that!

Mr Cameron, Please help!

You don't want a trial, fair or otherwise, you have already decided they are innocent.

As you have already decided they are guilty, then I suppose it doesn't matter if they get a trial, fair or otherwise

Good, the quicker this is put to bed the better for everyone. Happy New Year Koh Tao. See you soon for another great diving holiday on yoir beautiful coral reefs and sun kissed beaches. Amen.

Good to see, that some haven;t lost their sense of humor and sarcasm!

No - he means it! He's a nutter who can't see the "clear and transparent" reasons for bringing the case forward.

That last full sentence above is comedy gold.

I also think the same of the headline!

Governments need to let people government their own lives. It is against the law to drink when drunk. How about addressing that issue. Stopping alcohol sales is not the right way. Prohibition proved that in the USA. People will drink during New Years. There can be no arguement here. THEY WILL DRINK. It is simply a matter of where they drink. Some stupid people will get drunk and drive. Some will die. It is a constant. Cutting out bars from selling is hurting tourism and business. That is the only thing it does. Again - people will drink, some will drive, and some will die - period.

Im all for letting idiots kill themselves. No problem!

Trouble is when those idiots kill or maim others who are just minding their own business.

Surely no one should have the right to do that?

They should just attack the problem directly, like they do in most European and western nations.

But I guess you need a competant and reliable police force to do that!

"It is against the law to drink when drunk." Sorry - did I read that right?

It's just a confidence trick.

When the 'committee' meets later this month they will agree not to proceed. Then they will tell the grateful nation that they 'have listened to the voice of the people'.

It's all part of the plan........they must think we're stupid. I don't care by the way, as I don't drink, but to suggest no alcohol sales is stupid.

Why not ban driving instead.

Well foreseen - the PM has just rejected the idea, and is another feather in his cap!

If the goal is to avoid road killing, why not....enforce the law???

The law is to "don't drink and drive", not "don't drink"

Banning drink to ensure people don't drink and drive is like banning matches because some people commit arson.

Edit - just realised this may well be the point you're making aaacorp, apologies if so, I initially read your comment as 'If the goal is to avoid road killing, why not?... enforce the law!'

Amazing how the placing of a "?" can drastically alter the meaning of a statement!

Complete and utter contradiction in a few sentences!

1. "alcohol sales during New Year and Songkran has forced Dr. Ratchata Ratchata-nawin, the Public Health Minister, to come out and say that the proposal was just an idea to tackle the number of traffic fatalities as a result of drunk-driving."

Followed by:

2. Under Dr Samarn proposal, violator faces six month imprisonment and a fine of a maximum 10,000 baht. The proposal intends to tackle sellers, not customers, he said.

The idiot can't even hold a valid argument in 2 sentences, and obviously has no idea what he's thinking! Toss-pot to that!

I agree that the proposer of this suggestion is an idiot, but is Dr Ratchata Ratchata-nawin the same person as Dr Samarn?

"However president of the Medical Council Prof Dr Sonsaj Loleka said no countries has ever come out with such proposal, no matter they be the United States or Japan."

this is the key to the stupidity of this proposal.

​Repeatedly authorities in Thailand seem to come up with these cockamamie ideas in isolation - no research, not even a glance at what other countries do.

​I doubt if they even are are that in UK the accident and death rate over Xmas new year is LOWER than at other times - and the consumption of alcohol and of course sales rockets at that time of year. Maybe - if they spent just one second - they might wonder WHY.

​I find it hard to hide my utter contempt for this example of disgraceful thinking by a member of government.

I agree - this has got to be the most stupid suggestion I've heard this year, if not ever! And if what you say is true about the accident and death rate in the UK going DOWN at Xmas, then the reason for that is possibly the fact that the police are doing their jobs by breathalyzing and arresting drunk drivers?

Ti believe high season starts the beginning of October.Tourism down I believe cause of the coup.

october?

have you ever been to thailand?

high season in most places is considered to start mid december, but doesnt really hit full swing till xmas then begins tailing off toward songkran.

Maybe he was referring to high season rates, which mysteriously start prior to actual high season

Probably. No customers, so put the prices up - another example of Thai "anti -logic"

I am always saying to my son.

What is the solution? What can you do?

1.we can sign the petition.

2. We can donate a little money.

3. We could somehow organise a bunch of foreigners to go to the court.

4.???????

Why?

What if they are guilty?

It's the Thai legal system, it's up to Thais to sort out the corruption if there is any in this case.

"It's the Thai legal system, it's up to Thais to sort out the corruption if there is any in this case."

Stitch up job and the corruption on this goes all the way to the top. Sickening.

Goes all the way up to Mr. Militaryman

You don't know this, infact nobody knows anything , its just speculations and gossip coming from the social media.

Yes they might be scapegoats , but again , they might not be !

So ridiculous to read all the comments in here and you all think you know it all . The truth is you don't know a shit.

Yes , so it goes all the way to the top , to the P.M himself, is that what you want to believe?

Ive seen the photographs, ive read the quotes from RTP representitives. Ive noted the inconsistensies. As a educated inteligent adult ive drawn conclusions. Are you suggesting I ignore the facts printed in the press (photos and quotes) and put my faith in the RTP despite them having proved themselves utterly corrupt time and time again.?

I think my suspicions are justified and ill trust my own instint and powers of deduction over the writhing nest of rats AKA RTP.

I see you edited your post. Do you not have spellcheck? Ive, ive, representitives, inconsistensies, inteligent, ill, instint? Well, I suppose you did spell "educated" correctly!

It was typed on a tablet hence the 4 edits just to get it posted . it's good that you focus on the typos and not the content. Bravo sir , bravo.

Sorry Simonuk, but I come from the "Old School", and correct spelling and correct use of grammar were part of my schooling, unlike today. Consequently, the above errors "jumped out" at me! However, I do agree with the content!