lostoday

Has the Nana now closed?

Nana what? The hotel, the entertainment complex or the Golden bar?

losttoday writes:

"No one on Thai Visa has been asked for a TM30 to obtain a retirement extension at Jomtein when other documents such as lease or power bills have been available."

-So is this correct? Is there anyone here who has been asked at this immigration office at Jomtien for such a document?

As also mentioned in another post, easy for someone to ask direct from an immigration officer at Jomtien what documents are needed for retirement extension specifically for proof of address. One of the mods who claim to specialize on immigration rules could contact immigration and get a formal ruling.

I did my extention in February and all i was required to provide re my address was a copy of my rental agreement......... has that changed?

Pattaya is Chonburi Immigration and Sri Ratcha is Chonburi Immigration, would it be unreasonable to expect some sort of commonality.

This is a TM30 receipt from Chonburi Immigration dated July 2014. I have 2 in my passport, they didn't take the old one out, just stapled it closed.

tm30 jul 14 001.jpg

You wrote, "Pattaya is Chonburi Immigration and Sri Ratcha is Chonburi Immigration, would it be unreasonable to expect some sort of commonality."

The answer to your question in my experience is yes.

OMG. You cannot possibly be that vacuous! My comments are factual and not wrong.

I have made it clear that I don't know what (if anything) is asked for at Jontiem. My comments about TM30 requirements are generic and based on personal experience as well as information given to me first hand by two immigration officers (friends).

There are two different occasions when a TM30 is/may be required.

1. When a foreigner moves in. Section 38 applies and the report can be done by the house-master, owner or possessor regardless of their nationality. It only needs to be done once per entry to the country.
2. TM30 for extensions. In my experience and following conversations with immigration, when (IF) they ask for a TM30 with extensions applications it is not necessarily to comply with section 38 but more as a form of proof/confirmation of residency. And because of that they (at least my office) are asking for the person named in the Tabien Baan as the house-master to complete the form and provide ID and a copy of the Tabien Baan. YES they are almost always the owner but it's the person named as house-master (in whatever capacity) that they want (at least at my office).

The only person giving wrong and confusing information has been you.

You wrote, "I have made it clear that I don't know what (if anything) is asked for at Jomtiem."

I am in complete agreement with you.

Since this thread is about Jomtien/Pattaya and since all Immigration offices are different I have no idea why you are posting in this thread. The first post you wrote on this thread which you listed the above information (#88) you did not make it clear you didn't know anything about Jomtein.

Section 38 of the Act actually states;

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration Office located in that area , the local police official for that area must be notified. In case the house , dwelling place , or hotel where the alien has

stayed under provision of Para.1 is located within the Bangkok area , such notification must be reported to the competent official at the Immigration Division. Making notification , in reference to the Para 1 and 2 of this Section , must comply with regulations prescribed by the Director General.

Section

Section 4 of the same Act defines house-master as;

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

In my case when I moved into a privately rented house, I completed a TM28 (change of address) and the TM30 on behalf of my Thai landlady (who lives some distance away) as the possessor and tenant of the property.

I didn't have any issues with Immigration as to who completed the TM30 as long as it was completed.

Both receipts are stapled in my passport.

In every topic about address reporting, you are a cantankerous poster who fails to understand what you read, either as posted from experience by other members or from extracts of the law.

From your previous posts I can only assume you have a great fear of being caught out for some illegal activity by Immigration as you seem to move up and down the Country, married but on a retirement extension and teaching.

So it would be in your own interest to avoid Immigration knowing as little as possible about your residence and the fact that you are working illegally, hence you troll on this type of topic and try to confuse the issue for your own piece of mind.

You even consulted a lawyer on this issue........unbelievable!

Your flame,

"In every topic about address reporting, you are a cantankerous poster who fails to understand what you read, either as posted from experience by other members or from extracts of the law.

From your previous posts I can only assume you have a great fear of being caught out for some illegal activity by Immigration as you seem to move up and down the Country, married but on a retirement extension and teaching.

So it would be in your own interest to avoid Immigration knowing as little as possible about your residence and the fact that you are working illegally, hence you troll on this type of topic and try to confuse the issue for your own piece of mind.

You even consulted a lawyer on this issue........unbelievable!"

No response to flame.

2. Your response about the TM 30 is not about Jomtein/Pattaya and as such is an attempt to confuse posters. Each immigration office is different. If you want to post information about another office in a thread about Pattaya you should identify the office you are posting about and the visa extension you are writing about.

Each office is different for any information to be valuable a poster should identify the office and visa they are posting about.

The one thing about a democracy is people do get to vote.

IF, a vote made any significant changes , a vote would not be allowed .

Dream on , democracy 5555

35 million people vote in Thailand tis you who are dreaming. Dictatorship 555.

Millions of Americans probably don't even know where Syria is !!

Why would that make any difference? Americans watch the news where people from the Middle East are throwing poop at the police and shouting ala something F you. They know Obama wants those poop throwing people to come to America.

Refugees Chant “Alxxxxx,” “<deleted> You,” Attack Citizens, Throw Feces you can google it.

I realize you all want to bash those uneducated Americans but in 2014 more Americans traveled abroad than the total population of the UK. http://www.ibtimes.com/americans-traveled-abroad-record-numbers-2014-1826816

• Europe: 11.9 million American visitors
• Caribbean: 7.2 million American visitors
• Asia: 4.5 million American visitors
• Central America: 2.7 million American visitors
• Middle East: 1.8 million American visitors
• South America: 1.8 million American visitors
• Oceania: 601,000 American visitors
• Africa: 358,000 American visitors

And according to 2013 figures, 64% of American citizens have never been abroad.

The past summer, 58% of UK citizens travelled abroad.

Proportionally, the number of students from EU countries who study abroad is huge. It is now an expected part of the curriculum for all students, not just the wealthy few.

The sad fact is that huge numbers of USA citizens have never experienced what it is like to be surrounded by people who do not speak your language and do not share your culture. For the rest of the Western countries, this is a normal experience.

The sad fact is more Americans travelled abroad than the total population of the UK. 68 million Americans travelled abroad in 2013. Americans are surrounded by people who do not speak their language and culture every time they go to Florida or Texas. 10 million Hispanics live in Texas and 5 million Florida.

40 million Americans were not even born in America let alone traveled outside of America.

America is a land of many cultures and Americans travel abroad in larger numbers than almost any other country. Last year China spent the most in travel abroad and America was 2nd. http://uk.businessinsider.com/tourists-from-these-countries-spend-the-most-when-traveling-abroad-2015-4?r=US&IR=T

Trump realizes even though America has many different cultures the majority don't want it to turn into a terrorist country with Sharia law and all the other stuff that goes along with that culture. See the news stories about German women asked to cover up because the refugees can see them.

A school in Bavaria has sent a letter home to parents warning them not to let their daughters wear revealing blouses or short skirts, because emergency accommodation for refugees has been set up next to the gym.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/09/grade-school-girls-in-germany-ordered-to-cover-up-so-as-not-to-provoke-muslim-refugees/

In my opinion and experience, when immigration request TM30's with extension applications they specifically want the house-master (chief possessor) to provide it as a form of proof of address. House-master being the person named in the Tabien Baan of the property which may or may not be the owner.

Whereas a TM30 submitted within 24 hours of a foreigner moving in to a property can be completed by the house-master, owner or possessor.

Ah there is the rub. I think Immigration wants the owner of the house/land to fill in the form and rarely do they want it if it is a retirement extension. The owner of the house/land will always be the owner of the house/land.

The poster above has verified my opinion while getting a retirement extension in Phuket. Phuket Immigration did not want the person living in the house to fill in the form they wanted the form filled by the owner of the house/land.

You've almost got it but.......

• It is not the owner they want but the house-master named in the Tabien Baan of the address the foreigner lives at. In addition to the TM30 they ask for a copy of the page in the Tabien Baan naming this person as house-master and a copy of their ID.
• The house-master may or may not be the owner.
• The owner of the property isn't necessarily named in the Tabien Baan of a property they own.
• Thais are only named in one Tabien Baan which should be the address they claim to live at.
• A foreigner could also qualify as the house-master.

Your bulleted information is not based on fact or anything that has happened at Jomtein only your opinion.

That is all I am trying to say is the above even with bullets is only your opinion. And it is wrong.

You wrote, "It is not the owner they want but the house-master named in the Tabien Baan of the address the foreigner lives at. In addition to the TM30 they ask for a copy of the page in the Tabien Baan naming this person as house-master and a copy of their ID."

The law reads "

According to section 38 of the 1979 immigration act, "House owners, heads of household, landlords or managers of hotels who accommodate foreign nationals on a temporary basis who stay in the kingdom legally, must notify the local immigration authorities within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the foreign national." If there is no immigration office in the province or locality of the respective house or hotel, the notification is made to the local police station. In Bangkok the notification is made to the Immigration Bureau. The notification of residence of foreign nationals is made by the manager of licensed hotels according to the hotel act, owners of guesthouses, mansions, apartments and rented houses using the form TM. 30."

You wrote, "It is not the owner they want." Wrong - the law states, "House owners, heads of household, landlords or managers of hotels who accommodate foreign nationals on a temporary basis who stay in the kingdom legally, must notify the local immigration authorities within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the foreign national."

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php?page=alienstay

• It is owner of the house/land, heads of household, landlords or managers of hotels that is to fill in the TM 30.
• The house-master/owner is almost always a Thai owner.
• The owner of the property is usually named in the Tabien Baan of a property they own.
• A foreigner can not own land in Thailand.
• To avoid problems have the owner of the property where you reside fill out a TM30 in case asked for said documnet by immigration authorities. Or don't.
• The worst that can happen is you might have to make another trip to Imigration at Jomtein.
• No one on Thai Visa has been asked for a TM30 to obtain a retirement extension at Jomtein when other documents such as lease or power bills have been available.
• The easiest method to obtain a legal retirement extension at Jomtein is alone and without an agency and don't speak Thai, dress appropriatly and act polite.

For further information about a Tabien Ban see http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/156485-yellow-tabien-bahn/?hl=tabien%20bahn

The other post says the same thing my lawyer said read below.

"I was given a TM30 to fill in IN PHUKET, they were not interested in my lease agreement, or my 30 year lease on the Chanote.The form was for the house owner to fill in,"

In my opinion and experience, when immigration request TM30's with extension applications they specifically want the house-master (chief possessor) to provide it as a form of proof of address. House-master being the person named in the Tabien Baan of the property which may or may not be the owner.

Whereas a TM30 submitted within 24 hours of a foreigner moving in to a property can be completed by the house-master, owner or possessor.

Ah there is the rub. I think Immigration wants the owner of the house/land to fill in the form and rarely do they want it if it is a retirement extension. The owner of the house/land will always be the owner of the house/land.

The poster above has verified my opinion while getting a retirement extension in Phuket. Phuket Immigration did not want the person living in the house to fill in the form they wanted the form filled by the owner of the house/land.

We don't know where elviajero gets an extension or what kind.

If I lived in a condo I would have the owner of the building fill in a TM30. If asked for it I would supply it to Immigration. There would be no doubt about it if the owner of the building/land filled in the TM30. Anyone else may be suspect in my opinion.

However if anyone really cares they can call Pattaya Immigration and ask.

He's in buffoon mode again.

He would be damaging the credibility of entire U.S.A. brand doing stuff like that.

Give asylum, it's done, as the new U.S. president he would be obligated to honor previous asylum grants.

If he could manage his mouth, he might really have a chance. But it's clear he can't, so he doesn't.

The USA 'brand' no longer has any credibility.

For you when did the credibility go? 1944?

I followed this topic because I was interested in it

As it turns out, probably the OP is a troll.

But worse than that these guys on here are arguing about "who said what" stuff.

Turn it off please.

I don't really think Mobi is a troll. I don't know why he would make such a post. The argument is about who should fill in the TM30. I'm thinking no one or the house owner and the other guy says any Farang is liable to fill out the report.

That is a significant difference.

Should you go to your landlord and ask him for a lot of paperwork for nothing or should you fill in the report and keep it on hand in case it is asked for at Immigration.

Do you get extensions? Don't you want to know?

What about the Farang possessor above in Phuket? Aren't you going to correct him?

I've nothing to correct. Unlike you they aren't making false claims.

To clarify. You said, "My Thai attorney told me that the house master was the person who owned the building." and "Absurd is asking a Farang to fill out a TM 30 form as it is for Thai people to do." All I have done is correct the wrong information given to you by your lawyer and your incorrect statement that only Thai people can complete a TM30. But as usual you don't take the time to read and comprehend what's being said to you.

The other post says the same thing my lawyer said read below.

"I was given a TM30 to fill in IN PHUKET, they were not interested in my lease agreement, or my 30 year lease on the Chanote.The form was for the house owner to fill in,"

Based on a recent visit at Jomtien for something else but witnessing some scenes at the retirement desk I think something probably has changed in their demands.

What?

The new Thai Navy submarine shortly after purchase

The new Thai Navy submarine 2 weeks after purchase

Nope no Thai subs yet. Try google, "

Bang goes the no claims! Royal Navy nuclear submarine suffers £500,000 damage after 'hitting floating ice' while tracking Russian vessels,

I understand how you interpreted what I wrote, but I have already clarified that it wasn't part of law so there is no need for you to repeat your misunderstanding. Regardless of how you interpreted what was written it is factual.

I didn't try and "fake" anything! Why would I? I am simply offering information for people so they know the facts and are not mislead by statements such as yours that are wrong.

On your new point. The fact that you haven't been asked for a TM30 doesn't mean others haven't either. Offices are asking for this more often which is also confirmed by members reports. My office started asking for it 2014 and now require it every year.

If my memory is correct your office is not Pattaya and you don't get a retirement extension. How would you know other offices are asking for this more often? Reading Thai visa like me? Do you actually know anything about the topic of this thread which is specific to Pattaya Immigration asking for a TM30?

All immigration offices are different what happens in one has little bearing with what happens in another. I know this from experience.

I've received 4 retirement extensions from the Jomtein branch of Immigration and never been asked for proof of residence.

If you don't have any experience specific to Pattaya I can't understand why you are posting without mentioning that you have never had any dealings with Pattaya Immigration.

I have no experience with Pattaya immigration and no comment to offer specific to that office.

I only got involved in this thread to correct your misinformation.

What about the Farang possessor above in Phuket? Aren't you going to correct him?

A. You wrote, "He also told me there was a long queue of farangs from all manner of countries and every single one was given a blank TM 30 to get filled. A vast majority took the form and left immigration without continuing with their applications. This was Monday last week. He could not say whether any of these people were applying for retirement extensions, but he was told that when his own retirement visa became due for extension, he would need another TM 30"

B. Your Headline is, "TM 30 Required at Pattaya Immigration for ALL visa extensions"

I don't know how you get from A to B but......

This is Thai Visa the largest website in the WORLD dealing with Thai Visas. You would think someone could call up Thai Immigration at Jomtein and ask them. There must be someone working at Thai Visa who speaks Thai or someone working at Thai Immigration who speaks English.

The phone number is, Tel: 038 252 750

I think that I and others - both on this thread and earlier threads - have provided a great deal of information to enable me to move from A to B. as a headline. Phuket has arguably even more retirees than Pattaya, and all retirees there now have to produce a TM 30. Why there and not here?

I have not exaggerated or made up anything. I state it the way it is.

You seem to have conveniently ignored the fact that my quoted friend was told to produce a TM30 when he applies for his own retirement extension - at Jomtien....

Let's see who is right?

I hope you are, but I fear not.

Phuket does not require a TM30. The topic of this thread is not Phuket. Below is the form Phuket requires.

Your friend, however accurate was second hand information and was not getting a retirement extension.

If anyone really cares and is not clickbaiting let them call and report back to all of us. I'd do it except I'm not getting paid to provide Thai Visa information or disinformation.

If you wanted to help people you would call Pattaya Immigration or check with a person who recently got a retirement visa. If you wanted to create doubt and worry you would post a headline like, "TM 30 Required at Pattaya Immigration for ALL visa extensions."

Do you really think with the 100 or so retirement extensions done per day in Pattaya that no one would come on Thai Visa and post a new requriement like a TM 30. Aw come on now.......

It would be different if you posted a copy of the TM 30 and said might ought to have one of these if going for an extension at Jomtein.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/775837-anyone-heard-of-this-immigration-policy/

I was given a TM30 to fill in IN PHUKET, they were not interested in my lease agreement, or my 30 year lease on the Chanote.

The form was for the house owner to fill in, they were required to give ID numbers, name etc, relationship with tenant , how many people were living in the house. My name passport number etc were also needed.

The landlord was not required to be with me when I submitted the form.

I was applying for a Retirement extension.

When (date) were you given a TM30 or the Phuket version listed above? If I got this correct, you were given a TM30 (not the Phuket form above) and you took it to the owner of your house who was required to fill in the form. In other words, you as the renter (possessor) of the house could not fill in the TM30? Correct?

You seem to confirm what my lawyer told me that the TM30 was for the owner of the building/land to fill out and immigration did not want you to fill it out.

I understand how you interpreted what I wrote, but I have already clarified that it wasn't part of law so there is no need for you to repeat your misunderstanding. Regardless of how you interpreted what was written it is factual.

I didn't try and "fake" anything! Why would I? I am simply offering information for people so they know the facts and are not mislead by statements such as yours that are wrong.

On your new point. The fact that you haven't been asked for a TM30 doesn't mean others haven't either. Offices are asking for this more often which is also confirmed by members reports. My office started asking for it 2014 and now require it every year.

If my memory is correct your office is not Pattaya and you don't get a retirement extension. How would you know other offices are asking for this more often? Reading Thai visa like me? Do you actually know anything about the topic of this thread which is specific to Pattaya Immigration asking for a TM30?

All immigration offices are different what happens in one has little bearing with what happens in another. I know this from experience.

I've received 4 retirement extensions from the Jomtein branch of Immigration and never been asked for proof of residence.

If you don't have any experience specific to Pattaya I can't understand why you are posting without mentioning that you have never had any dealings with Pattaya Immigration.

For example the guy above makes it real clear he is talking about Phuket and a retirement extension. As I would think is appropiate.

500 guys online any time of the day or night quite willing to chat and tell you about the weather if you are a bit broadminded, most speak decent English and they are from all over town so you can check out local conditions. Google will give you the info.

Don't worry when Thai police come to your house to ask your wife why she didn't submit a TM30 she can say it was your responsibility. And see how that flies with the cops.

The RTN has an aircraft-carrier, which it doesn't really want, as there are no planes capable of using it, but 'wants' Chinese submarines.

China has, or can build, submarines but is currently building carriers.

Is there no deal-maker or intermediary out there, able to see a possible commission-earning connection, in this situation ?

RTN wants the aircraft carrier. I know. Trust me.

That is really bad. You make it look like

• A house-master can be a foreigner if named in the house book of the property.
• A foreigner can be an owner of a property.
• A foreigner living in a private residence they can be considered the possessor.

is part of some Thai law. It is not.

Are you not aware that a foreigner can own a condo and rent it out to another foreigner, And can be the one asked to do the TM30. They could also own a house through a company and be the one to submit the TM30.

Not sure where you get the idea that only a Thai can sign the TM30.

If Thailand wanted to put the above three points in the law they would have put them in the law. They are only the opinion of a poster who has not been in Thailand long. If he had qualified his remarks as his opinion I would have no problem with them. It is making them look like they are part of Immigration law that I had a problem with.

How do you form the opinion that I haven't "been in Thailand long" and what's the relevance?

To be clear, I didn't quote it as law. You interrupted what was written that way. The law does specify who is responsible for submitting the TM30 (section 38) and I gave you three examples of how a foreigner can qualify as a house-master, owner or possessor.

The law doesn't specify a nationality requirement so as long as the foreigner qualifies as one or more of the three named entities they can complete and submit the form to immigration even if they are the foreigner named on the form.

You previously said "Absurd is asking a Farang to fill out a TM 30 form as it is for Thai people to do." which is not true and "really bad". The law confirms you're wrong and if you search the forum you will find first hand reports from members that have been asked by immigration to complete the form themselves. Clearly there are far more knowledgeable people offering options in this forum than you or your attorney.

I offered you an opinion. My lawyer said the person who owns the building is responsible for the TM30. That is his opinion. I offered you my experience. 15 Retirement extensions in different parts of Thailand never being asked for a TM30.

You tried to fake it and make your opinion look like it was part of Immigration law see what you wrote below. Anyone can see what you wrote below.

You wrote,

The responsibility of submitting the TM30 falls to three possible entities:

• "Immigration Act. Section 38: The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office"
  • A house-master can be a foreigner if named in the house book of the property.
  • A foreigner can be an owner of a property.
  • A foreigner living in a private residence they can be considered the possessor.

Do you think that's why they chose this week to break the story about the current government preventing free speech for all on the INTERNET?

I think that was just timed with USA Presidential Hopeful Carly Fiorina stating while CEO of a well-known Computer Company she helped the NSA with a rerouted shipment of servers so the NSA could start their Domestic Surveillance Program.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/carly-fiorina-i-supplied-hp-servers-for-nsa-snooping

Why the two have nothing in common? Thailand wants to stop Free INTERNET access and NSA wants you all to talk more. Seems like the two are at least 180 degrees apart.

... or one program wants you to stop chatting too much and go back to work and the other program wants to listen to what you say in 'private'?

A program that would prevent journalists and college professors and students free acess to knowledge and world events is preventing them from working? The INTERNET is about freedom of expression not chatting. You do realize that the majority of the free world uses internet in their daily work? I have no problem with anyone reading what I post. I however can understand your concern. Equating censorship with work ethic? No I would not want anyone reading that.

Unfortunately, the 'wack-job do-gooder middle-American pseudo-intellectuals' have left the barn-door open...and yes...he will gain access to the White House.

'People get the government they deserve'

Then we don't have to worry about those folks from Syria and Yemen and........ After all they got the government they deserve.

Millions of Americans probably don't even know where Syria is !!

Why would that make any difference? Americans watch the news where people from the Middle East are throwing poop at the police and shouting ala something F you. They know Obama wants those poop throwing people to come to America.

I realize you all want to bash those uneducated Americans but in 2014 more Americans traveled abroad than the total population of the UK. http://www.ibtimes.com/americans-traveled-abroad-record-numbers-2014-1826816

• Europe: 11.9 million American visitors
• Caribbean: 7.2 million American visitors
• Asia: 4.5 million American visitors
• Central America: 2.7 million American visitors
• Middle East: 1.8 million American visitors
• South America: 1.8 million American visitors
• Oceania: 601,000 American visitors
• Africa: 358,000 American visitors

So, Prayut blames politicians and others here blame Prayut. In another topic someone even suggested Ms. Yingluck had the voters mandate to lose 500++ billion Baht on her 'self-financing' RPPS. Some posters seem unwilling to accept that responsibility and accountability also applies to politicians.

Mind you unlike the defenders I'm a taxpayer here in Thailand who's rather see proper infrastructure build to open access to the outside parts of Thailand to allow work, capital, knowledge to flow in. Simple handout every few years don't add up much, only on State debts and turning expectation of handouts into a 'right to handouts'.

PS did you know that this week is "Banned Books Week"?

Do you think that's why they chose this week to break the story about the current government preventing free speech for all on the INTERNET?

I think that was just timed with USA Presidential Hopeful Carly Fiorina stating while CEO of a well-known Computer Company she helped the NSA with a rerouted shipment of servers so the NSA could start their Domestic Surveillance Program.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/carly-fiorina-i-supplied-hp-servers-for-nsa-snooping

Why the two have nothing in common? Thailand wants to stop Free INTERNET access and NSA wants you all to talk more. Seems like the two are at least 180 degrees apart.

So, Prayut blames politicians and others here blame Prayut. In another topic someone even suggested Ms. Yingluck had the voters mandate to lose 500++ billion Baht on her 'self-financing' RPPS. Some posters seem unwilling to accept that responsibility and accountability also applies to politicians.

Mind you unlike the defenders I'm a taxpayer here in Thailand who's rather see proper infrastructure build to open access to the outside parts of Thailand to allow work, capital, knowledge to flow in. Simple handout every few years don't add up much, only on State debts and turning expectation of handouts into a 'right to handouts'.

PS did you know that this week is "Banned Books Week"?

Do you think that's why they chose this week to break the story about the current government preventing free speech for all on the INTERNET?