xylophone

I have just come back from my local Makro where I was buying some water, and had a glance at the Montclair wines which were on the shelves, and lo and behold, on the packaging it states: – "Shiraz and Cabernet Sauvignon grapes blended with orchard fruits". That being the case, it also states "fruit wine" on the packaging!! So unlike earlier days when Siam Winery were a bit "coy" about what their Montclair wine actually was, now it is clearly stated on the packaging. Good on them for telling it like it is and not deceiving their customers.

I was a fan of the George Duboeuf wines in my younger days, and in particular the Beaujolais Grand Cru, which like the other Grand Cru wines of Beaujolais would keep for a few years, and after some ageing took on the characteristics of a good burgundy. Was never a fan of the Beaujolais Nouveau, even though there was a big fanfare when it was released, and I remember hosting a Beaujolais Nouveau evening in Auckland in 1987, when we (American Express) took over a lovely restaurant and designated the evening for premium Card Members only, and had the wine helicoptered in after it had landed and cleared customs in Auckland – – it was a great evening, remembered as much by the vicious hangover as for great food and company!! Certainly the George Duboeuf Beaujolais wines would be the pick of the bunch IMO.

Point taken Partington and I thought I had corrected my posts accordingly by referring to grape juice, but not clear enough and perhaps fell back into old habits!!! I have steered away (tried to) from stating that fruit juice is added to wine, although other posters (and articles) have used this terminology, so thank you for pointing this out........it was always my contention that the fruit juice, or indeed fruit itself, was added to the grape juice (must) before fermentation took place. You are not being "obsessive" just putting the record straight, and my poor use of incorrect terminology, which was never my intention. ????

This is the italian wine I mentioned in my post......

Yes, I bought some a few months ago and thought it was a nice wine and there was another MacPherson wine which I bought, but can't remember which one it was at the moment!

Your comment about Wine Pro is spot on and one wine I can highly recommend is an Italian wine made using the Appassimento method, called;- "Camasella, Puglia, Rosso Appassimento 2020" and using this method gives the wine a great deal of body and depth of flavour, and an alcohol content of 15%. It is around 800 baht a bottle, but worth the experience if you haven't tried this type of wine before.....now one of my favourite wines! Also worth noting is that the large "Supercheap" store in Phuket Town has a good range of wines, stored in a temperature controlled environment, and usually a little less costly than elsewhere.

Well you have dug a hole for yourself with your arrogance and misinformation, and with regards to your posts which advocate "wine fraud".......stated as:- "misrepresentation of the wine (such as variety, blend, origin, or vintage)", so let me add a few more snippets of information for you so that you can dig the hole even deeper: – 1). From the previous wine thread on ThaiVisa.com:- "we do know that Montclair red wine does contain Roselle (as it is stated on the box) but no one knows quite how the final product is achieved". 2). This from an Australian wine buyer on a previous thread: – "Sorry for the lateish reply, have been down visiting some wineries in South Australia where I brought up this very topic with a number of wine makers. The polite answer to this stuff that Montclair et al are producing: It is not wine. The longer slightly more complex answer involves a lot of expletives". 3). From another contributor in Thailand: "Now here is something which I do applaud because it states on the box, "Made with Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot grapes and fruit juice...............". 4). An article in a Thai newspaper regarding cask wine, "The best-selling box wine in Thailand is Mont Clair red or white from Siam Winery. Packaged in a 5 liter box and sold at about Bt1000 it's a clever blend of South African wines (grape juice?) with an addition of fruit juice, other than grape, which permits substantially lower excise tax rates". So your assertion that "wine drinkers in Thailand can rest assured that the cheaper fruit wines here do not contain anything other than the fruit known as grape", is plain nonsense, especially as even Siam winery has previously quoted that their wine is a mixture of grape juice and fruit juice (Roselle) – – is that good enough for you? PS. It would restore my faith in human nature to see some sort of an "apology" for your incorrect and unsubstantiated slights on my character and credentials, but arrogance such as yours is usually the hallmark of an altogether unsavoury type of character, so I expect none.

I got round to watching the doco/film, "Moment of Contact" last night and IMO it was a complete waste of time, with more holes in it than a colander.

Thanks for the information BTH and I'm sure you're right, given your expertise in this area, however I also do believe the water run-off from the hill on the other side of the road which was "re-routed" had something to do with it, this especially as the road collapse happened about three weeks after they had finished this so-called "remedial work"!! However I bow to your superior knowledge. Yes the old Suzuki Swift is going well and is just about to clock up 40,000 km in just over 10 years, so not really used a great deal, however I will be trying the Patong-Kathu road today in order to buy some more wine. Are you due over to this part of the world any time soon?? If you are, don't hesitate to give me a call so that we can catch up. All the very best. Xylo

Thanks for the feedback and another question please, approximately how long did it take to get over the hill itself/how long were you waiting in a queue or similar? Contemplating going over tomorrow in my little Suzuki Swift, but not sure that I want to wait an hour in a queue?? Thanks in anticipation.

It seems that you cannot see the total flaw in your argument, and like to reply with putdowns of my knowledge and experience, however I was Director of Sales and Marketing for a company represented in the Dow Jones index, and I also started a multibillion-dollar investment unit where careful control over what was published vis-à-vis the investment funds was of paramount importance for ethical and legal reasons, something I had to oversee of course, so I am aware of what can and can't be said in sales and marketing literature/promotion. The flaw in your argument which you cannot see is that on the one hand you are saying that there is no fruit juice in the wine which is labelled "fruit wine" yet the label states that there is, and indeed some labels state the likes of, "premium grapes blended with orchard fruits" – – but of course according to you that's a lie. So again, according to you, wine producers and companies in South Africa, Chile, France, Italy and Australia to name but a few, are misrepresenting (lying about) the contents of the bottle so that excise duty/tax is lowered, thereby denying the importing country the excise duty they are due?? In effect, fraud and misrepresentation, so your argument would seem to be around supporting the lying about a product, on its label! Incredible.

You could try Wine Pro or Vinum Lector (I buy from them quite often) and they will send you a wine list and arrange delivery. Nice wine by the way!! Vinum Lector Wholesale Price List September 2022.pdf

So how do you reconcile the fact that many of the bottles of wine selling here for 399 baht have an alcohol content of 13.5% or thereabouts?? South-east Australia produces a lot of the cheaper end wine and this sells at around the 400 baht mark here, with an alcohol content of 13.5% and these grapes are grown in "high production" areas, very often assisted with a small amount of irrigation. Again you are way off the mark and I will put my 50 years experience of collecting wines and touring the vineyards of France, as well as being a personal guest at several of the top château for private wine tastings, against your ramblings.

Surely would, and that's why a few years ago I was in touch with the son of a friend of mine who was an apprentice winemaker in Australia in the Riverland region. I knew the general manager of the company and it was French grape juice which was imported and blended with various fruits before it was fermented and then brought into Thailand, and on the label it did say "fruit wine", so another of your assumptions bites the dust, because if what you are saying is true, they wouldn't need to put "fruit wine" on the label because according to you the tax break was already available to them! I did post a couple of links pertaining to the actuality of fruit wine if you would care to open them and peruse. They do exist and I had them and published them on a previous thread a few years ago now on the other forum Such nonsense and do you really believe that the future and reputation of a winemaker/company would rest in the hands of a marketing/sales person who decided to put whatever he or she felt like on a label??. Sorry to have to inform you but if this company were found to be fraudulently labelling the wine in order to get it through customs at a lower excise duty, then they would be charged with fraud and misrepresentation and the whole of the wine exported could be destroyed, and of course the reputation of the winemaker would suffer. And just around this off, the Montclair wine which was all the rage here a few years ago was imported grape juice blended with a Thai fruit called Roselle, and that should be able to be found on the Internet somewhere, rather than you spouting off your nonsense.

Agree, he and his followers are a threat to democracy, and so many false or misleading claims attest to his lies, dumbness or lack of a grasp on reality, but his supporters here just "don't want to see it". In fact I challenged one of them to provide links to his post about Biden's list of supposed "lies", but he has failed to produce any – – I wonder why????

Trump doublespeak, where he says one thing and then says another to contradict it, and I don't think he does it purposely it is just that he is plain dumb. He is famous for his lies (30,000 and counting) and doublespeak, and this is no different, and his nut job supporters follow him down the rabbit hole.

I'll drink to that! And I found exactly the same thing at a winetasting evening at a friends French wine importing business in Auckland, when several glasses were used for the tasting and much to my surprise one glass in particular stood out amongst the rest and it was a Riedel glass!! I would never have thought it! This little snippet is interesting: – According to a 2012 interview that Jameson Fink held with Georg Riedel of Riedel glasses, California winemaker Robert Mondavi met Riedel in London in 1989. Riedel had been producing wine glass sets since 1961, and his family company considers the glass a tool to balance flavor contributions in a wine, including fruitiness and acidity. This is based on three physical parameters of a glass – size, shape and opening. Mondavi listened to Riedel, then told him he was speaking nonsense. But later that day, when tasting Fumé Blanc from different glasses, Mondavi was astounded to find that the taste differed depending on the glass. He became a lifelong friend of Riedel, and supposedly even replaced his own wine glassware after their meeting.

No problem Schlog and as we have discussed what type of wine you like, in the past, I'm sure you will like my recommendation – – so let me know what you think of it when you stock up. Have a good trip.

There are some fruit wines which have a lower alcohol percentage (like some Montclair in plastic "bags" for example) however many of the ones which I have seen have a "normal" alcohol percentage of around 13%, and as I have just pointed out, as has Partington, it's because the fruit juice is added to the grape juice and then fermented as one, so the sugar and yeast do their bit to produce the alcohol. There was a long running thread a few years back whereby it was stated (me included) that Montclair (Siam winery) actually imported grape juice from Australia and South Africa and then added juice from a particular Thai fruit to it (began with an Ro, but can't quite remember it now) before fermenting it and selling it here. PS. Got it....juice from Roselle is/was added to Montclair wine!!!! More info on this link if you care to read it: – https://www.wineandabout.com/business/fruit-appearing-shelves/

I think you mean McWilliams Shiraz Cabernet, from Australia and I have bought it for 399 baht, although it seems to have gone up in price in some other stores, and for the money it is a good buy, and it's not a fruit wine, which is good to hear.

I have always agreed with that point of view although it didn't come across well in my second post – – my bad for trying to rush it. Yes, I believe the fruit juice is added to the grape juice before fermentation starts so that a more "rounded" end product is produced. Some time ago I was doing a bit more research on this and did come across some notes from a producer of this stuff, and it actually stated that he added juice from "orchard fruits" to the mix before fermentation. Tried to portray that in my first post, however my second post completely missed the point!!!! For the record, I see no point in doing this other than to be able to produce a finished product which is cheap and/or gets around excise taxes in one country or another. So far I have seen these "fruit wines" from Australia (mainly), France, Italy, South Africa and Chile.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with some aspects of your post, because the aspect of "fruit wine" is more tightly controlled than you suggest. If any fruit juice is added, and I did post something here a few years ago with regards to the amounts of fruit juice/wine which can be added, to the wine so it falls into the "fruit wine" category. Not only that, on the label it has to state, "fruit wine" somewhere (although I will admit it's never prominent) so imagine that an exporter of wine wanted to send his product to Thailand and produced a label which falsely stated that it was "fruit wine". Should he be found out for this ruse, then he would be subject to huge fines and reputational damage, not to mention probably having the stock destroyed. I've heard this on several occasions and there is nothing to suggest that the Thai authorities will have any bearing on what is on the label, because it will already be stated on the label from the producing country, what it is, so the producer/the producing country would be fraudulently exporting a product. You may also wish to peruse the information on this link...... https://www.the-londoner.com/blog/ordering-and-buying-wine-in-thailand/ I also remember speaking to one of the hierarchy of the Wine Connection chain in Thailand when they were selling wine which was fruit wine, although not that you could see it on the label, but it was inexpensive, hence the reason it was done, to get through Thai excise duty. This wine was produced in Vietnam and the white wine had juice from passionfruit and pineapple (I think it was) whereas the red wine was mixed with juice from "black fruits" as the person said (blueberry, blackberry, plum et cetera). So fruit wine is a reality.

Thanks for the update @schlog and I might have to give that a try over the next couple of days. I still think it will be many months before it is fully "up to speed again" and I also think that they will have to do something about the rain/water run-off from the side of the hill over which they have spread a concrete layer – – nevertheless good news and thank you again. And for your trouble I can highly recommend a great wine from Wine Pro......Camasello (Puglia) Rosso Appasimento 2020; at around 800 baht with tax, it is magnifico!!!

Well I don't like right wing nut jobs, and I have got no time for the MAGA dimwits, so if you wish to call it obsessed, then by all means do – that's your prerogative, and not one I subscribe to.

Well you are right on the fact that grapes are a fruit, but adding fruit juice to a wine with grapes means that the wine has to be labelled (or have somewhere on the label) "fruit wine". That has been the law with regards to international wine labelling for some time now, and I don't like it so I don't buy it. I am able to buy the "19 Crimes" for under 500 baht so that is my go-to standby, whereas the EagleHawk at 399 baht is far too "thin/insipid" but is good for Thai spicy food IMO. One that has been here for quite a while and can still be gotten for around 400 baht is "Barwang" Cabernet Sauvignon or Shiraz and many of the everyday Australian Reds come from the south-east Australia region and are meant for the lower end of the market and for everyday drinking. Good value IMO. I recently went to Wine Pro and despite trying around 24 bottles of wine, I've only found two which I thought were quite lovely wines, an Italian red (Primitivo or Negroamaro grape) from southern Italy made by the Appasimento method (a slight drying of the grapes before fermentation) which gives the wine good body and alcohol content. I think it was around 750 baht, but an exceptional wine. The other was a French country wine from Languedoc region called, "Mazan", and it was a Cabernet Sauvignon/Syrah blend and it was very good for a country wine (Pays D'Oc). Around 500 baht a bottle as I recall. If you don't have an outlet like that near you, then those I have mentioned and others have mentioned could be worth a try, and you may wish to seek out some McWilliams wines because I noticed that Villa Market had them on special at 400 baht (and Barwang) and for that price they are not bad at all. I've had my fill of drinking top quality wines over the 50 years I have been collecting them, and I now find that these wines are well overpriced here, and have not travelled (or been stored) well, so I seek out the everyday drinkers, as I call them, and I'm always delighted when I find a few good ones, as I did from Wine Pro.