placnx

On 5/6/2021 at 5:43 PM, TaoNow said:

Why are all you posters so worked up about vaccine availability?

 

Aren't you practicing primary prevention in your household and when you go outside?

 

What have you got to fear by waiting a few months until the vaccine situation clarifies?

 

Until then, pipe down please.

The concern of many is no doubt that if proper vaccines are still not ordered, when will they ever be delivered? This is not a question of a few months.

On 5/6/2021 at 2:54 AM, Jingthing said:

I have a theory about what's going on based on what I know now.

It's just a theory and it could easily change tomorrow based on new information.

This is about politics more than about vaccine supplies.

Thai people are blaming the government for the economic misery from the pandemic and not preventing the third wave and yes of course being slow in the vaccine program, and they may get restless, so the government deflects blame to foreigners. Why wouldn't they?

A tactic as old as the hills anywhere.

I think the core "hint" here is the word FREE.

Not so much that some high risk expats may get jabs "early" or relatively early but mostly about the FREE part.

So here's  the theory. 

Forget FREE.

The vast majority of expats always expected to pay anyway, no biggie, we're very used to being charged differently. 

But being greatly DELAYED in getting jabs could be a life and death issue for HIGH RISK expats.

So this is not a NORMAL situation for such expats. 

The Thai government knows that too, and they also know if they push  high risk expats too far to the back of the bus. there will start to be pushback from diplomats, etc.

So how to thread this needle and get the best of both worlds? 
PRIVATE HOSPITALS. 

High fees for vaccines.

Make these expats pay through the nose (we mostly don't care!).

Can still get the political win by not giving us jabs free.

From the popular Thai POV, this is all OK as long as we're forced to pay and pay a lot.

Expats can still get the jabs without waiting an awfully long time (hopefully).

But, of course, we shall see. 

This does not explain the delay in putting in vaccine orders for private hospitals. Now that the infection situation is getting serious, the Moderna story gives the embassies an alibi for not having reported the truth to their governments, i.e. that nothing has been done to arrange vaccinations for foreigners, even in private hospitals. Smoke & mirrors.

On 5/6/2021 at 2:04 AM, SiSePuede419 said:

Feel free to come back to the USA to get your vaccine. Should be a breeze. They're begging people to get them now.

Others have figured out that such a trip would take two months. 

On 5/5/2021 at 11:45 PM, starky said:

On race, or residency or citizenship? Totally different questions. how many of the Australians trapped in India will be vaccinated before citizens? Is there evidence of any country giving jabs to tourists before citizens were vaccinated? Honestly don't know just asking. Before you play the race card would like to see how many other countries with very little vaccine would be giving it to expats before their own people. 

This of course argues for Embassies taking care of their nationals in countries badly affected.

4 minutes ago, wealthychef said:

 

If the rapacious drug companies would relax their patent protections we could all get a shot this month.  

Waiving patents would be counterproductive. The best is to get US and similar to build vaccine production facilities at 'warp speed' to have the good vaccines available in ample quantities. Countries with no experience in making sophisticated vaccines are not a sensible choice if saving the most lives is the goal.

21 hours ago, Trvlr55 said:

Article appears specific to Bangkok only, not all of Thailand "Bangkok plans to inoculate 70% of its inhabitants,"

  Bangkok current population @ about 10.5 million, so this would be closer to 210 days/ 7 months.   

  70% is the current standard for Herd immunity, which is typically the goal to allow life to start to get back to normal again.

 

I don't see where they state that vaccines would stop once it gets to 70%,  but more to the point is to reach herd immunity, which contrary to popular opinion lock-downs do are quite ineffective. Vaccinations are the only answer.

You forget that 2 doses are required, so it's 420 days!

2 hours ago, from the home of CC said:

house prices went up because the CDN government decided to 'sell'  residency/ citizenships to these folks with  a fist full of cash, which basically every country in the world did..

That was true in the US where foreigners, mostly Chinese were buying $500K pieces of building projects in certain development zones to get green cards. So can foreigners get property in China?

2 hours ago, dutchweller said:

Also from what I understand 

Thailand is blocking foreign Embassys in Thailand from vaccinating its own citizens with supplies bought in from home country.

Yep well done Thailand you ARE as racist and zenophopic as every says.

 

What business is it of Thai government that foreign embassies give vaccinations on their premises to their own citizens?

4 hours ago, Chiang Mai Bill said:

Hmmmm. I'm not sure how ''we'' would feel if, when in our own country ''if'' -- during a virulent epidemic -- we found that ''foreigners'' were being given priority with vaccination (with a vaccine in very short supply) over ''us nationals''?

 

On reflection, I think we'd be pretty ''peed-off'' with our government for letting such a situation happen!

 

Yet here, so many ''foreigners'' -- many retirees, some long-stayers, some working and paying taxes -- consider they have the same rights as nationals! The Thai government are giving priority for nationals with underlying health conditions at the moment. ''Eventually'', they will give foreigners the vaccine.

 

[I just wish I was confident that no corruption will be involved!]

So it makes sense that, in countries where there's a lack of vaccines, the expats should be vaccinated through their consulates.

5 hours ago, jonclark said:

 

I am not sure - This is a vaccine gold mine for all companies involved and I would bet my bottom dollar they are producing Vaccine at a phenomenal rate - The amount of cash thrown at rolling out vaccines is staggering. Moderna alone aims for 1 billion doses by the end of the year. I would imagine all the other manufacturers, Sinovac, Sputnik, AstraZeneca, J&J, Pfizer are looking at similar numbers.

 

With UK population now at 74% vaccinated and most of Europe at 30% (ish) USA aiming for 70% by July 2021. Chinas and India's numbers are harder to fathom but it is likely they are likewise in the same ball park.  But this all points to vaccines production at a high and sustained level. 

 

In 6 months no hospital is going to turn around a person and their wallet if they seek vaccination.  Despite the outrage of a very small but vocal group of Thai netizens. 

 

 

It will be well into next year until the world can get vaccinated, and by that time those who have had weak vaccines will need boosters, a good vaccine if some good samaritan or government can help. It's really unclear where expats in Thailand fit into this picture.

4 hours ago, jonclark said:

 

I understand your frustration (after 20+ years of living here). But try not to be bitter. For developed countries to lower their standards so they align with Thailand's way of working (and thinking), would only be a backward step but would serve to vindicate and reinforce the poor standards that Thailand currently demonstrates.  

 

Do you think that would be a good thing? 

Actually, reciprocity treaties could be interesting. In Canada Chinese have driven up house prices a lot, so making hardship for locals. Can non-residents buy property in China? In Thailand's case, such a reciprocal approach could have an impact, since influential Thais could be affected.

4 hours ago, John Drake said:

 

In 6-9 months, it likely will be time for a booster shot and the entire process will need to be repeated. To get that "surplus" required before giving a shot to farangs could take a couple of years.

Booster - that could be true for Sinovac.

4 hours ago, AlexRich said:

I think the US, Europe and Australasian countries should pass a reciprocal rights bill, that applies to all foreign visitors. So a Thai visitor would be denied healthcare until all indigenous citizens had been served, be told to report every month to immigration, and pay 5 times more to enter zoos, theme parks and national parks. 
 

it’s only fair.

You forgot about owning property.

4 hours ago, time2093 said:

LOL good luck with that as from what I seen from the Australian embassy response which was a big fat NO for them help their own citizens about getting a vaccine in Thailand.

The embassies will only act on instructions from their governments. If left to their own devices, I expect that embassies would not bother to report back the requests from their citizens in-country. It would be just more work for them to do, so sad!!

3 hours ago, Excel said:

And what parallel universe are you living in ? "write to our embassy/consulate and demand they put pressure on the Thai government over this issue" you say.  Most embassies don't give a Tinkers cuss about their nationals, certainly that is true of the British embassy,  so your statement is nothing but wishful thinking that will never happen.

This letter the the editor, Wall Street Journal, says it well:

03may21

"Citizens Left Behind

It is commendable that the U.S. plans to send vaccines to help other countries around the world, but I am appalled at the Biden administration’s treatment of its own citizens living abroad (“U.S. Set to Share Millions of Shots Overseas,” Page One, April 27). I and all other U.S. citizens living overseas are full-fledged citizens who pay taxes. Why hasn’t the Biden administration sent us vaccines to be administered at the U.S. embassies in our respective countries? If we are made to pay taxes while living overseas, we should have the same rights to vaccinations as all American citizens.

Doesn’t charity begin at home?

LEA RETTER

Antwerp, Belgium"

Europe is somewhat behind in vaccinations, but in other countries where it's going to be a while until foreigners can get vaccinated, and with which vaccine, expats should mobilize to get their governments to do their duty of care for their expat citizens. I don't know whether the writer of the above can be contacted, but anyway, regarding Americans, someone who is good at social media should think about:

1) Go Fund Me campaign to put a full page ad in the Washington Post - open letter to Biden, and name names of responsible officials, and advise not to ask State for advice on this matter, ask journalists, expats, about vaccination situations in the countries where they work/live;

2) Twitter storm;

3) Contact any friends who are well-placed in government, public health

There are millions of Americans living overseas. Priority should of course be given to those living in countries like India, but the situation in Thailand certainly deserves consideration.

2 hours ago, rabas said:

Excellent point.  But I think his main purpose is to counter local forces pushing Sinovac, so he posts his data on facebook, one big graph with 2  big columns. Even Anutin can see that. 

I agree.

5 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Agreed, but many other countries are in the same shape.  There's a huge backlog of orders.  I think the EU ordered a bunch of Pfizer.  J&J canceled their deliveries there.  And AZ didn't deliver like they promised.

 

Not easy dealing with this mess.  Though I agree, Thailand has screwed up royally on this.  Especially considering how they are tightly tied to tourism.

WSJ reported that Moderna will be producing 3bn doses next year. Their contract manufacturer in Switzerland is doubling their production lines.

12 hours ago, rabas said:

Here is the study just posted on his facebook page an hour ago. You can use Google to translate. 

 

Dr. Yong AstraZenica study, facebook  .

 

Here is the primary data. It is based on the seroprevalence of antibodies as someone correctly suggested above.

 

 

Seems to me that he should have tested subjects for antibodies before vaccination. Previous infection plus a single dose could produce a much higher antibody titer than 2 doses.

5 hours ago, Poet said:

All the main countries are moving swiftly and collaborating on agreed standards. There is no train wreck, just the usual controversy in UK newspapers and almost nowhere else. The hubhub stems from a hope, on the part of those who were planning to skip vaccination, that they would still be able to travel anywhere they want. That was never going to be a possibility and every government, knowing that, has been quietly readying their systems for roll-out this summer.

The tech is fairly straightforward. Each national government will verify, from their own records, who has received what vaccine and on which dates. They already have this information. The "vaccination passport" is just a barcode - presented via a card, sticker, or phone app - that will allow authorized persons (immigration officials, airline staff, consulate staff etc) to see those details appear on the official online portal, making forgery all but impossible.

For example, a Thai Immigration Officer will scan the barcode and compare the details on your passport with the webpage that appears on his screen. He will see that you have had both shots of Pfizer, or whatever, within the past year. That is all there is to it.

It will be up to each country to decide which vaccines they believe are acceptable, and how long each provides acceptable protection. Airlines will have their own requirements too. For commercial and diplomatic reasons, expect all currently available vaccines to be considered acceptable, even the Chinese ones, and one innoculation will probably cover you for two years.

By this time next year, the pharma companies will probably be pushing a combined flu and Covid vaccine that they will recommend you take every year. Your online record will be updated accordingly.

 

This sounds good, but will countries outside the EU adopt a reciprocal solution? The US is a mess, since there is no national registry accessible to apps, and the CDC vaccination card is not the only card being used by local authorities. It's ripe for fraud:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/04/18/scams-coronavirus-vaccination-cards/

This is due to some risk-averse Biden people not wanting to get into an argument with libertarians about having a national database for verifying vaccinations. 

I doubt that the US will let people vaccinated with Sinovac, Sputnik, etc, enter unless they do quarantine. Will the airlines let these people board? Of course, if those vaccines were properly vetted, the picture might change.

I'm very interested in vaccine passports, so if you have detailed info on the EU vaccine passport or the digital WHO card project sponsored by Estonia, please let me know.

1 hour ago, Miami007 said:

The New England journal of Medicine has no power to approve vaccines.  

True, but the process includes publication in a journal so that the scientific community can have a look. The trial data is also made available. Then a submission is made to be considered by the scientific committee which approves vaccines.

2 minutes ago, gearbox said:

 

That's March 16th 2020....

 

Why the German government needs to have a say? This is a deal between two private companies. Fosun is following the Chinese approval protocols and is expected to get an approval soon.

Sorry, I'm getting beady-eyed staying too long at this screen. Missed the 2020 date.

Technology transfer! Germany used to be lax, but they've upped their game. Still, they are nervous about annoying China.

6 hours ago, friendofthai said:

I have just successfully explained for you that there were no any "anti-western-vaccine" actions from the Chinese side. Just normal waiting during a normal workflow - nothing more.
But from the western side we see that authorities prevent their people from being vaccinated by Chinese vaccine.

If China wants foreign approval Boss Xi should order those vaccine companies to hand over the data!

7 hours ago, gearbox said:

The Chinese are about to approve the Biontech vaccine manufactured by Fosun, so maybe everyone vaccinated with the "Pfizer" branded Biontech vaccine may be able to enter.

BionTech and Pfizer are partners. The Fosun deal was only announced March 16th, so who know when actual production could occur, if ever. Does the German government have a say?

https://investors.biontech.de/news-releases/news-release-details/biontech-and-fosun-pharma-form-covid-19-vaccine-strategic