TroubleandGrumpy

There has been a lot of discussion about if and when Retired/Married Expats (RMEs) have to lodge a tax return in this 'new tax era' of the Thai Revenue Department (TRD) IMO the vast majority will not need to lodge a tax return - but as always it is best to get your own legal/financial advice on this and any other taxation matter or opinion. I have been researching and discussing this 'new tax era' since it was first announced in September 2023. I am still extremely annoyed that Thailand could even think about taxing RMEs, but my initial thoughts that this would screw over all RMEs has turned out to be not as bad as I first thought. Firstly - all Expats who work or own a business in Thailand have to lodge a tax return - my comments below only applies to RMEs who do not work or own a business in Thailand. The reason I say most RMEs do not need to lodge a tax return, is because my read of the Thai Revenue Code, is that it specifically states that 'assessable income' means 'taxable income'. IMO assessable income is not all the money brought into Thailand, but it is the specific money brought into Thailand that is taxable - and there are lots of exclusions and exemptions. Therefore IMO if your pension is already taxed (enough to cover any Thai taxes) and/or it is not taxable under a DTA, then it is not taxable income when it is remitted into Thailand. Additionally, all savings from past earnings before 1 Jan 2024, are not taxable income as clearly stated by the Thai Revenue Department. However, IMO any income earned overseas after 1 Jan 2024, from sources such as property rental, investments, etc., is taxable income, and if you bring more than 120K Baht of that type of money into Thailand, then you need to lodge a tax return. That does not mean you have to pay taxes on that amount - it means you add it all up and then claim whatever allowances and deductions are available. In a separate thread it is detailed how a married Expat over a certain age can get about 500K in deductions - this is something that you must either calculate yourself (and keep records) or get a tax accountant/expert to do that for you. There is no advice yet from TRD about what happens when a person has non-taxable savings overseas and that money earns interest - and then a portion of the total amount is remitted into Thailand. Obviously it is not all taxable (only the interest portion) - but how much of that interest is actually remitted when only say 10% of the total amount is remitted. Likewise, there are many other 'complications' that until now was not needed to be clarified - which is according to many Thai pundits, why the original rule was in place for almost 30 years (too complicated). IMO this 'new tax era' is a broadening of the existing tax laws to catch out those people and businesses who have been making money overseas (that is taxable), and then bringing that money back into Thailand in the following tax year, when it is not taxable. Certainy that has implications for Expats whose money being brought into Thailand is from working/earnings overseas, but IMO for the vast majotrty it has no 'deliberate' affect - note the work deliberate. Aside from the potential to be 'audited' in the future, and then fined and severely penalised for not lodging a tax return when TRD thinks you should have, I have one main concern for those RMEs who genuinely believe (like me) that they will not have to pay income taxes. That decision is soley at the decision of the TRD, and if the TRD ever (now or in the future) decide you have to pay income taxes, proving that you dont will be extremely difficult and expensive. TRD is not the Immigration Police - they do not have decades of experience in dealing with Expats, they dont speak much English, they operate only in Thai when appealed/challenged, and they have just as many (if not more) 'diifcult' officials, and they are extremely powerful - they can get you arrested, detained and deported. While some people have had positive interactions, I personally know 2 people who were 'audited' by TRD (businesses) and it was extremely difficult - without the benefit of a Thai speaking wife/business partner they would have been in serious trouble. A I said right up front, the thing that really worries me about this new tax era is Somchai in the local TRD saying - 'you bring 1 million baht, you pay tax'.

There are pockets of locations where it is OK sometimes, and others that are always bad. If you stay indoors in a/c until late mornings it is definitely better - the local fires all seem to be lit at night. But when the fires in Myanmar and Laos get bad, the place can be a 'smoke hole' for days on end.

Mate - there is no place in Thailand without air pollution sometimes. We are currently in Rayong in a small village - OK air but we are thinking of moving. We like the big city stuff and miss it - long drive to Pattaya and I dont like that place either. Hate Bangkok, dont like Hua Hin, Phuket sucks, CM bad, Samui expensive/small - basically we dont like any of the tourist spots to live. Depending on how this income tax thing goes (if bad we will try Philippines - great air and much cleaner - but not Manilla), but if the tax thing is all good, then we will probably try an East Isaan city - the further west you go in Isaan towards CM, the worse the smoke season. But there is nowhere without bad air sometimes. Phuket is the probably the best overall in that regards, but it is a seriously screwed up and corrupt small island that gets 6-10 million tourists a year - great to visit a resort on the west coast - not a good place to live (for us).

If the Thai airforce using the NASA fires website to identify a fire, and then goes and drops huge amounts of water on it - great!! But anything else is a load of PR BS. We used to live in Chiang Mai and loved it - we left after 3 years because the smoke was unbearable on some days during the 'smoke season'. It got worse every year and lots of promises and PR BS announcements amounted to nothiong - so we left. Is the Governor of Chiang Mai listening () that is 1 million baht a year NOT being spent in your Province anymore. Nowhere has great year all round in Thailand - not even Phuket (90 now on IQair) - but Chiang Mai/Rai is a disaster. If the Thai Airforce water bombs the forest and farm fires - that would be very useful - as long as they do it all the time - day after day. Sure it will screw up a few farms - but screw them. And the mushroom hunters starting the forest fires can go fu...........

Ditto - Lazada works best for me - especially balls/tees etc. But for buying stuff like gloves I havent used before and clothes etc. for the wife, always best to try them on first.

Thanks mate - much appreciated. It always astounds me how poor Thai businesses are at marketing themselves - especially from the street level views. I have found their website - https://www.onlygolfthailand.com/ So far the only place I found with 'reasonable' prices is the golf shop at the back of the Outlet Mall. There is a 2 story mall in Bangkok dedicated to golf gear - but it is way over-priced. I was visiting Khon Kaen recently and the Sports Store in Central Mall had Pinaccle Soft and Rush on sale for 700 Baht (Box 12) and several other 'bargains' too.

Speedtest by Ookla is a worldwide accepted testing service. I am so sorry that you did not realise this is a forum where people state their opinions. Please insert IMO in front of any comments I or others make. Dont speak on other's behalf - how do you know he knows or does not know anything.

Test both services via a browser. Go to speedtest.net and find out how they both perform. My mobile network gets maybe 40Mbps - often less - and the ping test is about 40ms delay. My 3BB fibre gives me close to 500Mbps consistently and about 9ms ping delay. And I could pay extra and get 1GBps with 3BB fibre. Emails and Facebook etc - OK to use mobile. Movies and IPTV etc - fibre is the way to go.

I cannot resist one more post. NO it does NOT. Read the quote: (1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment. FROM EMPLOYMENT being the key words. The Age Pension is paid whether a person worked or not in their lifetime. It is a social welfare entitlement paid to citizens of a country if/when they qualify through age and time living in that country (and maybe a few other criteria).

No mate - that is the wrong way to do it and I cannot participate on that basis. You may want to make an interpretation based on opinions, but in the absence of absolute proof I do not accept that is the right way to deal with this matter. All opinions are challengeable IMO and saying they are not is unacceptable. I will make my own decisions going forward on what is the right way for myself to deal with this important matter. When things become clearer and Thai RD provides its statements and advice in response to all the criticism, I will seek professional advice from a tax expert to make sure I am correct.

Sorry Mike - but I do not accept that as 'proof' at all - quite the contrary. I note you have added a few points to the list of unknowns - but I feel you are trying to push your views as facts and are missing the point about what this thread is all about and why Expats are sharing their opinions. Just because you file a tax return, for whatever reason, does not mean that all Expats must lodge a tax return. And whethr an Expat is from a DTA country or not, is irrelevent in regards to whether they have to lodge a tax return or not. I see nothing that states that a retired/married Expat who does not earn income from employment must lodge a tax return in any Thai RD document or Thai Govt websites that relates to Expats not erarning income from employment. The document you quote from is not relevent to Expats, unless they are earning an income from employment. Stating that something is 'understood to mean assessable income' as a fact, when it is your opinion, is not right. If the Thai RD has stated that as a fact in a document that is relevent to non-working Expats, then please provide it. Regarding those unknowns you listed I must say this - expecting to get answers to all of these things for every Expat from different countries and in different financial situations and then putting all that in one 'simple guide' is extremely 'ambitious' and a bad idea. My advice to you Mike, is to be very careful about stating as a given fact, anything that relates to this change in income taxation in Thailand (this new tax era) - unless you have that confirmed by the Thai RD, have a specific link to that confirmation, and are absolutely certain it applies to everyone. There is a reason why legal and taxation 'experts' do not give general advice - or if they do it is heaviuly subjected to caveats - they can be sued for giving false or incorrect information, that results in somone losing money or breaking the taxation laws by following that advice. Perhaps trying to create a comprehensive and all-encompassing 'guide' is not really the best way to go forward. I dont think it is realistic or that you have the ability to put together something that in your opinion answers all questions. That is what a tax expert is paid to do - and they have the training, experience and qualifications to provide that advice in response to any person's own personal financial circumstances.

Yes this is a very big point - and this is definiterly a matter where we disagree. IMO there is no ruling or determination from the Thai RD that specifies that anyone who brings savings into Thailand must lodge a tax return and prove that money is not income but is savings. Therefore, IMO and under the previous precedent whereby retired/married Expats on long term non-working Visas and/or without a working permit, were not required to lodge tax returns on any money they brought into Thailand. Yes it is a requirement for Expats that receive income from employment in Thailand, but there is no ruling or statement from Thai RD that any Expats who bring their savings into Thailand are required to lodge a tax return. But this rule change is not specifically about non-working Expats on those Visas bringing in their savings - it was about people bringing income and/or earnings into Thailand tax free, because that income/earnings was made in the previous tax year. Therefore, in the absence of any specific and clear ruling or statement to the contrary, in my opinion, both based on precedent and specific rules/determinations, non-working retired or married Expats in Thailand on a long term Visa do not have to lodge a tax return, unless the money they bring into Thailand is specifically income or earnings (madse after 1 Jan 2024) as per the Thailand tax laws. Those of us that are in receipt of Government Pensions are in a bit of a limbo about whether that money is assesable income (except for USA) because their country's DTA with Thailand looks a little vague on who can tax a Government Pension. As for those who are Australians, I am still waiting responses to my questions to tax consultants and the ATO.

Mike - I just found this additional thread about income taxes - is this where all discussions should be held - will the 'new tax era' thread be closed and readers referred to this one. I have a couple of questions and some issues to maybe add to the unknowns list. This imay have been already resolved and I missed it - but just in case. That document you attached which states that anyone with income above 120K must lodge a tax return, is specifically "For taxpayers who received income from employment only". Is there a document from the Thai RD that specifially covers those who receive income/money from overseas only, and have zero income/money from employment here or overseas. The current tax rates that I read in the guide document here are different from the latest rates listed by Mazaars. I know the Thai RD website states the ones in the guide, but under that it states 'applicabkle from 2013/2014'. I will not comment right now on my opinion of the Thai RD. Personal Income Tax - Mazars - Thailand Given that an Expat brings in money to Thailand from his personal savings accumulated before 1 Jan 2024, can you advise on what basis are they required to lodge a tax return (besides that document attached), and have you got any idea how they are going to prove to the Thai RD that the money is not taxable. If I think of anymore I will send them here.

That may and may not be true - it is not clear and certain, except for USA Pensions, the rest of us are in limbo waiting for definitive answers.

Pensions are included in every DTA - and every DTA is different. Some like USA specificaly state that all Pensions paid in USA are only taxable in USA. But others are a bit more undefined because the wording is not so clear.

If they are assesable and taxable yes - it is when they land in a Thai bank account that they may be included, depenbding on your personal circumstances.

I am chasing up this issue for the Forum - I have contacted several tax companies in Thailand and the ATO. There is one tax company that stated on their website that the Australian OAP is assesable taxable income in Thailand. I have requested their details and whether that is their opinion, or have they dealt with the Thai RD regarding this matter for an Australian and they therefore have a case example. I also asked if they have communicated with the ATO regarding this matter too. No one has replied to me yet. I will also add that back in October I sent an email to the Thai RD and asked about how/where I could get more information on how this change might affect my personal financial situation as a married Expat in Thailand - no reply was received.

That is not correct - the full pension is $28, 516 which is well over the tax free threshold. But your other point is correct - the Age Pension is taxable income in Austraia - but the 'rule' is that ATO does not tax the Age Pension. The reason it is taxable income, is so that anyone earning additional money above the Pension is taxed at the marginal rate applicable on their income, at the rate applicable when the pension is added together with their income. When you get the Age Pension there is no tax free threshold of $18,200 applicable for any income above the pension. Plus the Pension payment is reduced if you earn over $204 a fortnight ($5,304 per year).

OK by me - so tell me exactly what is the bet?

I hear you and agree with some of that - but most of it is your 'belief'. When in business I learned the hard way that 'belief' has nothing to do with Contract Laws or Taxation Rules. What is fact matters - and what is precedent also matters. While you believe those things Mike - I have many doubts about things - but I am not saying you are wrong - I am saying they are not facts. Yes Expats in Thailand are going to be caught in this new net, and the Thai RD is clearly aware of it and that is why this media story was published about a 'new tax era'. However, exactly what are our obligations under this new rule change (and all the others caught up in it), has not been clarified by the Thai RD. In fact they have formed a committee and are discussing how this change will be implemented - hopefully they will provide details sooner than later. Regarding whether Thailand should impose income taxes on Expats living here as retired or married in a matter of belief - and we are definitely in disagreement. I do not believe that they should be doing that at all (many reasons), and you believe that they should be able to do so (also many reasons). That particular discussion is a matter of beliefs and is not a matter of facts. Hopefully, the Thai Govt will recognise that if the Thai RD implements this new tax era the 'wrong way' and retired or married Expats are caused a lot of financial and/or legal problems (forced to pay taxes unfairlt, forced to lodge complicated tax returns, forced to pay for tax accountants and/or translators, hit with income taxes not expected, etc etc) then that will result in many Expats leaving (me too), and new Expats not coming to live here anymore. The fact that the Thai Govt has not responded positively to this all this very negative social media activities for over 3 months, makes me believe that they do want us all to pay as much income taxes as the Thai RD can get out of us. But how the Thai RD will implement this new tax era, and under what processes will it be applied, and detailed explanations of individual circumstances, etc etc - those facts have still not arrived from the Thai RD and the Thai Govt has given no assurances.

Actually, in most western countries you can be a resident in a country/state if you live there long term. But to be a formal 'resident' in Thailand is extremely difficult - huge application process, expensive and takes years. Technically all Expats in Thaiand that are on long-term non-immigrant Visas are actually here as a Tourist visa - they are all variations of the same basic Tourist Visa. Except for the LTR Visa recently implemented. PS - if I do ever win, the Thai wife will be able to receive it, but not me.

Ditto - regarding bringing extra money into Thailand in 2023 - and now I am also waiting and watching to see how things go before deciding what to do. Actually, I am glad they are only taxing remitted money. That allows me to control what form of money I do bring into Thailand. If I ever did make/receive any additional income going forward it will be impossible for the Thai RD to know as it would be 'quietly' added to my other retirement savings account (Super). I will put some money from my Super (and all the Govt Pension), that I wish to bring over each year, into one Aust bank account and then to Wise and then to my Thai bank account. That does not mean that the Thai RD will not try to impose income taxes on all those remittances by forcing me to lodge a tax return to prove the money is not taxable in Thailand - and then make me wait and hope to see if they agree. And that is the big issue (for me) going forward - how would I (if I have to) prove that to the Thai RD - what documentation will be acceptable to them - will I need to engage/pay a Thai tax accountant every year - what happens if they dont accept my claimed exemptions and/or allowances - where can I do next if that happens, other than to leave? There are several posters who have said that the Thai Govt gets a lot more money from what Expats bring into Thailand, then they would get if they impose an income tax on some of that money - so why would they risk lossing part/all of it? But logic and reason is not something that is in a large amount here as we all know. IMO the Thai RD is under huge pressure to drag in more money as the economy continues to slowly decline, and they will only care about getting maybe 5-10% of the estimated 300 Billion Baht that is remitted into Thailand by the estimated 300,000 retired and married Expats currently living here. Worrying about potentially losing a large number of those Expats is not something IMO that the Thai RD gives a rat's rear about - but like everyone else I just have to wait and see what happens - it is a worry, but it might be OK

Welcome to the new Boss, same as the old Boss.

Thailand politics and bureaucrasy is full of 'skow ponies' that look good, but when confronted with real work, run away. The reason is simple - no accountability.

No idea here in Thailand. But back in Aust I found this 'industry' to be massively over-priced for basically shoe inserts. Certainly those with 'deformed' feet/legs need special shoes. But for the majority of us all that is needed is shoe inserts - which you can buy yourself and experiment with by wearing them and seeing how it goes. There are many high quality shoes that you can buy, and likewise there are cheap/nasty and good/quality inserts. I would say for inserts on-line is your best bet after researching the brands/models that work best for other people.