TroubleandGrumpy

IMO there are only three viable countries for most Expats - Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia. Those with more 'wealth' would also have Singapore on their list (probably first).

Nail on the head hit !! That is the problem - how Somchai the Thai RD Inspector will deal with this. After much discussion and some debate I have formd my opinion and my course of action. 1. I will be a Thailand tax resident on 28th June 2024. 2. My 'income' from withion my Supoer Fund in Aust is already taxed at 15% - and therefore under the DTA between Aust/Thailand I have no obligation to pay any tax to Thailand RD for that annual return. 3. My 'income' in the form of my Aust Govt Pension is not taxable in Thailand - and therefore under the DTA between Aust/Thailand I have no obligation to pay any tax to Thailand RD for that Pension. 4. All transfers into Thailand come from my savings (in Super) and my Pension payments - and therefore under the DTA between Aust/Thailand I have no obligation to pay any tax to Thailand. 5. I therefore have no obligation to complete an annual tax return in Thailand. 6. That may well be the 'truth' - but that will not necessarily be easily accepted by Somchai the Thai RD Inspector who wants me to pay taxes on my 1 Million Baht in bank transfers into Thailand in 2024. 7. Therefore I will be keeping as low a profile as possible to avoid meeting Somchai. My transfers into Thailand will all be in amounts well under the 'standard reporting' level of $10K USD. 8. I will be calculating my Thailand tax details every year and keeping all associated documents in a file, just in case Somchai does in the future 'come knocking'. 9. If Thailand ever makes incoming transfers into Thailand taxable, then we will be leaving the country. In order to facilitate that decision, we will not be purchasing any property in Thailand for the foreseeable future (renting only). I have my course of action, and now it is a matter of wait and see how things pan out. I hope all those saying it will be fine are right - but thanks to all those who decided to research and provided their thoughts and information, just in case they are wrong.

IMO you are probably as 'safe' as anyone can be, if this goes ahead and the Thai RD cracks down on Expats brining money into Thailand banks. Unfortunately. I am not in the same situation as you.

You are wrong as to what constitutes a 'tax resident' in Thailand. If you can find somethinjg from the Thai RD that advises what you say - I will stand corrected. I agree with you that they have previosuly not 'enforced' the matter for retired/married Expats. But how will they now enforce this new rule? Look at incoming bank transfers as indicated in the first OP about that matter? That is the problem - we dont know. I would also point out that the Govt, the PM, the RDmn etc etc (none of them) have not released a statement in response to the massive social media backlash (Expats and also Thais) saying what you have stated (leave retired Expats alone) is current practice, and that going forward that will not change.

You are both right and wrong. Yes it is a difficult situation without due cause for RD to get that information. But no, the Thai RD can request your bank deposits - it is not nonsense. Under the international rules brought in after 9/11 and changed/added since then, banking organisations must report transactions over a certain amount and of a certain type to authorities. Thailand is part of that international agreement. Will/can taxation authorities be able to also see that information if thwey want to for reasons of investigating any possible tax avoidence - Yes. Do you really think the Thai RD (or any Tax Dept) cannot see your bank account details if they wanted to - of course they can. Obviously they will not be 'seeing' all of them as a matter of course - but if they want to they can saee any one's bank details that they want. May I suggest going forward all Expats keep their remittances into Thailand below about the equivalent of 10K USD at one time? May I also suggest that Expats have 2 bank accounts so as to limit the total brough into Thailand in any one bank? Hope that does not sound like nonsense - but either way - it is up to you.

As long as you dont stay 180 days in total during any calendar year, then you are not a tax resident and therefore not affected by this new rule - or any other harebrained tax idea they make in the future.

Correct. And that has been ratified by several Court rulings over the last 30 years. I read an excellent article to that regards on a Thai publication website over the weekend.

Just because it is not aimed at you, does not mean you will not be 'hit'. The devil will as alwauys be in the detail - none of which we have at this time. If the Thai RD implements this new rule and targets all bank tranfers into Thailand, it will hit us all.

The rule is very clear. But obviously they do not currently enforce that rule for Thais andnon-working Expats. Personal Income Tax (PIT) is a direct tax levied on income of a person. A person means an individual, an ordinary partnership, a non-juristic body of person and an undivided estate. In general, a person liable to PIT has to compute his tax liability, file tax return and pay tax, if any, accordingly on a calendar year basis. Personal Income Tax | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

Are you kidding? How much do you transfer into Thailand over a year?

The problem is that they might/can look at your money transfers into Thailand. How they look at those bank transfers is unknown - in the past they just let it go. Anyone bringing in a large amount of money after Jan 1 2024 is now under the threat of being 'looked at' and then asked where did those funds come from - and then to prove it was not taxable income.

I disagree with several of the points/claims made by the OP. IMO there is no need to lodge a tax return in Thailand, unless you have an income that is 'taxable' in Thailand and you have to pay tax. Just because you are a tax resident does not mean you have to lodge a tax return. Is the OP claiming that every Thai citizen currently lodges a tax return every year. No they do not - because the majority of Thais do not earn over 150K Baht per year (and many do not bother). IMO unless a tax resident or citizen is required to pay taxes, then there is no need to lodge a tax return. Yes I could be wrong - but if Thailand demands all Expat tax residents who do not work here (those retired or married without a work permit) have to lodge a tax return, but not all Thais have to lodge a tax return who are working, that will result in a wave of complaints about racial discrimination. Mine will be one of the first they get.

EDIT - Here is the current condo property market......... for all Foreigners and Expats living in Thailand more than 180 days per year. I would say that any of us even thinking about buying a condo or a house, meaning bringing in the large amount of money to pay fopr that, are now in a 'holding pattern'.

I have found some documentation which would be used by an Expat if the Thai RD decided that the DTA with their home country does not apply and they have to pay tax. These two RD website links provide some details about what is required if they wish to appeal/dispute that decision made by the Thai RD. MutualAgreementProcedureProfile.pdf (rd.go.th) final_MAPmanualEN.pdf (rd.go.th) As clear as mud, and as uncomplicated as a space rocket - and the 'appeal' must be made it Thai. Clearly, anyone in that situation will have to spend a lot of time and money, including employing a Thai 'specialist', in order to have any chance of success. And judging by the past 'success rate' of Expats taking Thais to a Court, I would say the chances of winning are none and buckleys.

I hope so - and I hope that Somchai will not demand that it be Notorised and Translated and signed by a Director of the Social Security Department ????

Yes indeed. My plans to buy a new car next year have been cancelled. Likewise, any potential plan to buy a property in Thailand in the future (rather than rent) are now well and truly cancelled. I think MFP will probably win the next election, and I think that Thailand is moving towards a more progressive country - unless yet another coup crushes that change. If/when Thailand becomes more 'modern', that will include more social welfare support, and that will mean more taxation. Being able to leave to avoid new taxation regulations being introduced in the future, is now a given in my forward planning.

For those interested I have received a reply from that legal/tax firm about their statement saying: The new rules state that if you spend more than 180 days in Thailand per year, you will be required to declare all of your foreign income, regardless of when it was earned or whether it was remitted to Thailand. They are getting a lot of enquiries about the matter, and they have backtracked a little on their statement and advised that 'Nobody knows exactly how it’s gonna work.' They also stated that it will probably not be clear until some time in 2024 - if this does go ahead - it might be 'delayed'. They also advised that this step was meant to catch people who were using a loophole to avoid avoid tax on their revenues made outside the country - such as crypto traders and overseas property investments. The Thai Govt has stirred up a hornets nest among Expats and Thais who invest overseas. This will probably end up in the Court, because for over 30 years the Thai RD has operated in a manner based on an interetation of the Act that has been ratified by several Court decisions in the past - it is likely that making such an arbitrary change (and in so short a period of time) will be challenged in Court. Rather than allow that to happen (and lose political credibility) the Govt will probably delay the change - maybe.

Yes that is true - I have read most of those articles and the DTA between Thai and Aust. However it might come down to how Somchai the Thai RD 'officer' views the situation. How many times have the IOs done things that are not in the rules - and how often does this Immi Office and that Immi Office view things differently. I am assuming that the Thai RD as an organisation would be more 'centralised' than the Thai Immigration organisation, but I have no idea how they operate. They certainly do have Offices across the country, but do they, like Thai Immigration, also have a lot of autonomy in each Province? The big question I have about this matter in regards to this matter is - What documents would I have to provide to prove I have already paid taxes on any earnings in Australia/ Having a DTA is one thing - the issue is how do I use that to avoid being taxed in Thailand. I have contacted the Aust Tax Dept (ATO) and they have not yet responded (probably will not - or they will say go see a lawyer).

Because some of us are 'dug in' and some have a Thai partner and some with kids etc etc etc.

With individual experts who are specialists in the DTA for each home country. They are all very different.

I agree that due to DTAs it should be a non-issue for many people. But that does not mean that it will not become and issue. There is a legal brief vid on youtube where an American lawyer explains that a DTA is an agreement, and both side to that agreement may and do often have a different interpretation of what the words therein mean. There are no guarantees either way.

I have stopped work, but I have not converted my Super to Retirement Phase. Therefore all earnings made by my Super Fund are taxed at 15%, before distribution to its members who like me have their money in the Accumulation Phase. I did not convert my Super Funds to the Retirement Phase for two reasons. Number One - both the Government, the Super Funds, and a lot of 'Advisers' were saying that people should convert to Retirement Phase because their money in Super does not then get taxed. I have been in and around Government and large corporate organisations for a long time, and they never do anything that is not in their own best interests - especially the Government - so I checked out the details and once I had done that the decision I made was not to do it (see 2). Number Two - once you 'convert' your Super to Retirement Phase, it is classified as an income - by Centrelink, ATO and all other Govt Depts. Additionally, once it is converted, you cannot go back to Accumulation Phase. I can stay in Accumulation Phase until I am 75 - and that is my plan. And (of course) I have a few plans for what to do after that time - but it is quite a few years away yet - things will change and meanhile I am staying across all the changes in Super rules.

I have absolutely no argument with what you have said - and it is your right to view this matter in anyway that you decide. But I/we are certainly not 'fearmongering' - we are discussing the issues involved, saying what we believe they mean, and sharing thoughts on what might happen, and giving our ideas on how to manage the probable scenarios that might develop. There is absolutely no certainties in this matter at this time - there is only possibilities and probabilities - and both informed and uninformed opinions. Having said that I will respond a little to those listed items that you said the Thai RD will need to have in order to 'come knocking on the door'. The Thai RD (any Tax Dept) does not do that as a matter of course, and then send you a detailed summary of your tax bill. How it works, in varying degrees, is that the Tax Dept is informed or finds out or notices (large bank deposit/s over a year etc etc etc) that someone might be avoiding their taxation obligations. First Step - are they liable to pay taxation. In Thailand that means resident for 180 days and if you are a non-immigrant Visa holder then it will be assumed you are - you will have to prove you were not in Thailand for 180 days or more - you will have to prove that - they will only have to prove you are a tax resident if goes to a Court as step one of the formal/legal process. Second Step - check if the person has they lodged an annual taxation return (for this exercise the answer is no). If they have, then check that return against whatever information they have that instigated the check. Third Step - if there appears to be a problem, do more detailed checking (what that is in Thailand we have no idea - it will probably be just check out your bank details over the year - maybe more). Fourth Step - decide whether to send you a letter asking why you did not file a tax return (or did it incorrectly), and maybe ask you to come and visit them. That is what the term 'knocking on your door' means - sorry if you thought that was meant literally. Although that might happen if they get no response from you.

As I just found out - Day 180 is 28th June 2024. Therefore if anyones leaves to avoid this tax khrapp they have to leave on or before 27th June 2024.

You are right - I counted them myself and 1Jan to 30June is 182 days. Thanks for the advice - never knew they did that. Therefore 180 days is 28th June 2024 Also noted that February 2024 is 29 days - Leap Year.