TroubleandGrumpy

Taj Mahal makes Phuket in peak season look like an outback town in Australia. It took over 6 hours to get there (200Ks) and over 7 hours to get back (New Delhi). And when we got there it was an absolute (insert swear)ing disaster - worst day ever in India. Never Ever go there - just look at the pictures freely available on the web. India is not massively over-crowded with tourists - if you ever go there you'll soon know why. But it is massively totally utterly over-crowded with Indian people. What is unbelievable is that they are generally happy and very nice people. Until you play them at cricket ????

Yeh mate - I still need it - a lot ????

Then dont play golf mate.

Me three.

Phuket is an island that gets (at peak) 9 million tourists a year, against an official local population of 400K so this assessment is wrong. The itnerant population of workers during the high season would be 2-3 times the number of locals. But - it is massively over-rated and over-priced and corrupt - which makes it somewhere that people who know, dont go (again). I aint going again - ever.

So they will exempt LTR holders, but the will tax the retired and married Visa holders? Surely that would not be a rational or fair approach to take. Yes Shirley - TiT - welcome to LOS - now you pay taxes please. No - you Farang get zero Govt services or benefits - you are not Thai. Yes - 90 day reports, 12 months extensions, no legal rights, deported at any time. But pay up anyway, unless you are wealthy and can give us lots of money to buy a 10 year Visa. My wife hates this Government more than she did the Junta.

Yes and No ????

Yep - it looks like it will be clusterpharkk for many of us that do 'technically' earn income from our assets overseas, that will make dealing with Immigration like a walk in the park. As I have said before, I will watch and wait until June 2024, and then find out if/what is likely to happen, and then make a decision. It is all a pain obviously, but the one thing that very very seriously worries me, is that if I decide that I dont need to complete a tax return because I have no 'taxable income', then what will happen in 8-10 years if I get 'called out' by the Thai RD and handed a taxation bill based on X Million Baht being brought into Thailand, plus additional fines for not having done previous tax returns. That will be a nightmare that do not want to live with hanging over my head. Many years ago I knew a bloke who had certain 'iffy' financial arrangements for nearly 10 years. His first mistake was doing what he did, and his second mistake was telling others about it (I thionk somone dobbed him in). Anyway, he was nailed to the cross and lost his house and his 'investments' - the wife eventually left him bla bla bla. He eventually moved to another city and 'started again' in his late 40s. That is what I fear the most. Doing an annual 'fight' with the Thai RD is one thing, but not doing annual returns and then having the Thai RD tear me a new one in 8-10 years time, is a huge worry. June 2024 - should I stay or should I go. For those unaware the photos used by the Clash on their hit song, were actually done in Bangkok.

Technically you are (wrong) but it is a matter of semantics. A Visa allows you to enter a country (if approved) and each Visa gives you 'permission to stay' in that country for a specific period of time. What can be extended is your 'permission to stay' in Thailand.

AND gives us legal rights, no dual-pricing, and not require us to report every 3 months and extend our stay in the KIngdom every 12 months - then I will also think about it. If they treat me like they do all Thai citizens, including the majority who pay zero income tax, then I will be happy to pay income tax in Thailand (maybe).

I am even more convinced that this could be a 'game changer' after just catching up on the latest comments, especially the problems the Expat has, who is already dealing with the RD, and who only has a pension. I dont mind accepting that I am a Thai tax resident and therefore liable to taxes, because based on my calculations the taxes I pay in Australia will be more than applicable in Thailand. But, the probability I will need for a PIN in order to do an annual extension, and the RD Dept is going to manage this 'new' situation, is probably going to be a massive problem for me/us living in Thailand. I have never put into my 'planning' that I will have to be dealing with the Thai RD and/or Immigration regarding personal taxation. And as many have said - just because I have no tax liability does not mean that the Thai RD will accept that. If this goes forward and Expats are taxed based on the money they bring into Thailand (aside from Govt Pensions which I believe will be OK), and the only way to avoid that tax is to 'prove' to the Thai RD that it has already been taxed in Australia - then we will not be living in Thailand. Added to that is the concern that every annual extension is going to require a PIN be rpovided plus proof of an annual tax return. If this goes ahead as it does appear that it will (there has been no Thai Govt statement saying it will not tax non-working Expats) then we will be leaving Thailand and taking all our money here. From now, I will only be bringing into Thailand the absolute minimum needed, which means my plans to buy a new car and house in the next few years is gone. I will be watching closely how this pans out until June 2024 - which is when I would be classified as a Tax Resident for the tax year 2024. Maybe, just maybe, I will do a 'trial run' in early 2025 to see how it goes. But if by June it is clear that Expats are expected to pay income taxes on any incoming transfers (besides Govt Pensions), and I will have to prove tax has already been paid on every transfer, and the ability to provide proof against that claim by RD will be as expected (ridiculous and impossible like the non-Thai health insurance for an O-A Visa), then we are 'OUT OF HERE'.

Yep lets hope so - and additional 190K (340K tax exempt) changes it quite a bit. Most pensions will be exmept - all the county's DTA I looked at excluded pensions. Thanks for letting me know about the typo.

Thai tax payable on 65K per month (980K PA) is about 70K Baht. Unlike Singapore where their bureaucrats are a lot better educated and trained (not saying they are great), in Thailand they are often under-educated and very badly 'trained'. If the Thai Govt was to continue down this path (becoming like Singapore in taxation enforcement), but expect that to happen with the same RD staff and systems (which they would), then it will be a disaster., not just for Expats but for any Investors. And if anyone thinks MFP would be any better, IMO they would be worse. MFP have the clear intention to introduce a social welfare system in Thailand, and they will be needing a massive increase in taxation revenue to pay for that.

I am the same - as is any Expat tax resident who has savings or investments in their home country and brings money into Thailand. Those Expats who only receive a Govt Pension will not be targetted. My investments are taxed in Australia, and it is close but I have calcuated I would not owe money to Thailand on a year by year basis. But the problem will be proving that to Somchai at RD - my investments are taxed at the Super Fund level - not on an account by account basis - how would I prove it is taxed? For those who think a DTA solves the problem for you - Wrong. What a DTA means is that Thailand and the other 61 countries have agreed not to double tax each others citizens/tax residents - it does not mean one cannot tax the other's. How it works is that if you have paid taxes on earnings in your home country already, that means you have 'credits' for that paid amount against taxes applicable in Thailand. That is why the Thai RD has avoided getting into this area for all Expats - there is a lot of work involved because each DTA is different in both it's application and subsequent specific decisions. This new interpretation - taxing incoming remittances based on previous years earnings that are not taxed - is meant to cover Thais and other tax residents who have been sending money overseas ('seasoned') and then bringing it back years later with no taxes applicable. That is the Govt's intention - but the concerns we all have is how it will actually be implemented - and how the local Somchais (RD Officers) will interpret this directive.

I agree - there is no solution to this issue, and the wise thing to do until it ever is solved (unlikely) is to keep a low profile and not draw the attention of the Thai RD by making any single large transfers into Thailand. I figure bringing in up to 400K at a time should be 'safe', because rather than getting the banks to total up what every tax resident brings into the country between Jan 1 and Dec31, they will 'notice' any large transfers and then request the bank to provide that person's total over the year. But that is logic and TiT - so who knows what they will do. Hopefully they will just put all non-immigrant tax residents in the 'too hard' basket, unless we bring in a large amount of money in any one year. But if that did that, surely they would realise that will stop us all from buying a property in Thailand. But - TiT. I will be watching what happens in 2024 and take notice if any Expat on a long-stay non-immigrant retired/married Visa is 'nailed' - I will then make a decison what to do going forward.

Good point - anyone on a Government Pension/Payment and that has a bank account or property in Thailand should make sure this is known to the relevant authority in their home country.

If I may put this here - this is my situation in the matter - and this might be relevant to other Aussies (and others) in a similar situation. I am a tax resident of Thailand, because I am here over 180 days every year. Therefore I am liable to pay income tax on any money earned overseas, anywhere in the world. I am also a tax resident of Australia, because I am a Citizen and have money in a Superanuation Fund that is taxed by the Australian Tax Office (ATO). My Age Pension (in fact any Government payment) is specifically excluded from being taxed by Thailand, in the Tax Agreement (TA) between the two countries. And in every other with other countries that I looked at randomly, Governmment payments are not taxable in Thailand. I would check that out for yours. Australia | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th) In addition to the Pension, I have before, and will in the future, take some funds out and place that in an Aust bank account, and then transfer that to my bank account in Thailand. That is the concern, because 'technically' the interest earned in my Super Fund is 'assessable income' for tax purposes - when it is remitted to Thailand. My 'technical' tax obligation to Thailand under the TA requires that it applies to the interest earned, and that the tax that I paid to the Australian Tax Office for that, is offset against what tax could be applied in Thailand. Aust Super Funds do not pay earned interest on an individual level, it is done across the whole Fund ($Billions). The Fund pays the applicable tax to the ATO, and then puts any 'earnings' after the tax is applied, back into everyone's account. They calculate and pay tax on the Fund level, and whatever is left over (or under like in the GFC) is credited or debited againsat each Member's account based on their percentage share of the Fund. As you can imagine explaining all that to Somchai the local RF Officer, and providing him with written proof that he would accept, will be impossible. But having said all that khrapp, the question becomes when will the Thai RD know I personally have remitted taxable money into Thailand? Are they going to look at every bank transfer of every tax resident in Thailand? No! IMO what the Thai Govt will do is require the banks to advise them of any incoming transfer amount over X Baht, and to advise them of any single person who has transferred over Y Baht into Thailand in any year. Who knows what those amounts will be - 500K and 1 Million? 1 million and 5 million? Either way, that is the key IMO to dealing with this. Find out those numbers and then keep transfers below the amounts that will draw the attention of the Thai RD. I have calculated that the tax already paid in Australia is higher than the amount that would be taxed in Thailand, and therefore I do not need to lodge a tax return. If I got that wrong, I am so sorry. Will I be ever be audited and in 2030 asked to pay back taxes - I very much doubt it as the funds involved would not be worth their time. However, it could still happen, and I will cross that bridge when I come to it. It definitely makes me even more reluctant to buy a property in Thailand.

Ditto - I joined to 'get involved' because of this issue. I have always looked here and there for information, but this one got me going. And I must say guys - I have received a lot of good information - some irrelevant, some wrong, some correct, and some very pertinent to me - but mostly it has been information that I need to think about and check out further. Cheers.

Years ago they started a 'campaign' and people who had spent one day in a hotel were being fined when the Hotel did not submit the TM30, and again when they did not do the TM28 or TM30 when they got back home.

Australian pensions are not taxed in Thailand under the Double Taxed Agreement Australia | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th) The USA DTA is different from all other countries because of the USA requirement that most US citizens report and pay taxes to USA wherever they are living/working and earning that income.

You are right - but - when a Govt Dept starts a process to do something (go after wealthy Thais) they will throw a 'wide net'. The issue is that they have no control over who they 'catch' in that net. They cannot legally just pick a list of wealthy Thais and start investigating them - they have to appear in their 'net' - and then they can investigate. Will they ignore any of us caught in the net (too small - throw back) - hopefully they will. Avoiding taxation problems does not require ignoring them, and assuming they will not apply. I have found that over the years the best way is as follows. 1. Learn exactly what the rules/regs are and how they could apply to you (or pay someone to tell you). 2. Learn exactly how the Revenue Dept is going to catch people (or pay someone to tell you). Then you take actions to mitigate or avoid both 1 and 2 - or do what the expert says. The wealthy and rich pay good money to tax experts to do that for them. We could pay a tax expert to do it - or we can do it ourselves. If I was in Australia I would talk to one of the many accountants availble to ordinary people. But in Thailand all the good tax experts are going to be busy for a while.

Yes you are right - and it is one of the reasons why the Thai RD has not previously enforced this requirement. One guy said he went into his local Office of the RD and asked how he can do his personal income tax returns. They went 'Mai Mai' and he was told to 'go away'. It is too hard to do in Thailand - it requires accountants and a business etc. -The Thjai RD personal income tax systems and processes are not setup for this - too hard. And you are VERY right about no one knowing how they will implement this - they (RD) dont know. They are not prepared at all and it would probably take them 2 years to get their systems and processes right - and even then they will screw it up. Remember when they decided to 'enforce' TM30/TM28 laws? After several months they finally backed down and stopped it following the massive backlash from Expats. But no one who got caught and paid the 900 Baht fines was ever refunded, and none received an apology.

I would say a bit of both - it is all good until the dog wakes up and sees you ???? But I tend to agree that it will soon be sorted out one way or the other - I just hope it is soon. Meanwhiloe I will look into it all and see what impacts it would have if it did affect me - so far it is not good for me. I have investments in Australia that make earnings/income and technically I am liable to pay income tax on that to Thailand - depending on the tax agreement between Australia and Thailand as to who gets the first 'go at it'.

There are a lot of ways to avoid being required to pay liable taxes - including those you mention and others like using ATMs. But if 'caught' one day in the future, and they start an investigation, it can all be backdated.

That is correct, but I will point out that as a tax resident of Thailand you could be liable for tax on money/income earned overseas, and it is very much subject to whatever tax agreement exists between the 2 countries. US Citizens are different - they are obliged to pay income tax to USA on any earnings/income they make anywhere in the world. The USA is the only country that I know that gets away with that.