TroubleandGrumpy

Yes I also agree with all that Sheryle - absolutely true. I know a couple of taxation people here in Thailand - the only viable way to claim under a DTA would be to use their services. That is why I hope the Thai RD advises exactly what you have stated - Expats do not have to lodge a tax return if they believe/calculate that they do not have any tax payable in Thailand. So far that has not happened - it was 'implied' under the old tax rule and universally applied - but this rule change means that the Thai RD should IMO formly clarify that point, and not just expect us all to wait and see what happens.

I saw a media press release that stated that the BOI had asked the Thai RD to confirm that their LTR Visa exemption still applied under the new tax rule change.

I hear you Sheryle - and that is all good. But if I may make two points. 1. There seems to be a 'wave' of belief amongst posters that a DTA means no tax. That is the first thing I am responding to - and I am stating that is not automatically the case. Each Expat should very carefully determine if they do not have to pay income taxes (not just say 'DTA means no tax'). Then and only then, should they believe that they have no tax to pay. I am experienced in tax laws in Aust (business and personal) and I have researched the 'laws' here and I have calculated that I am not liable for income taxes - BUT I have no idea how I would prove that in an acceptable form to the Thai RD. Therefore I have taken steps to be able at anytime in the future to provide documentation that will substatiate my belief that I have no income tax liability. Hopefully that would be accepted by the Thai RD under point 2 below. 2. How things work with a taxation Dept (in any country) and the Thai RD is basically the same as all the others is thaty they will investigate any person or company if/when they are given (or find) a reason to investigate. They will go back many years and they will obtain and review many records, including bank records, to decide if there has possibly been a breach of the taxation rules (non lodgement or false lodgement). Then they will, if warranted, require that person or company to provide explanation - they may even just go ahead and calculate a taxation debt amonunt and provide them with that and request payment or a response. By not lodging a tax return, when in the opinion of the Thai RD you should have, is a very serious issue. So my point is - dont just think you have no tax obligation - try and prove it - and keep records just in case. The reality is that all remittanmces into Thailand are recorded and the Thai RD can obtain them for any company or person, if they want to. No they do not check them all every year - but if they believe something is 'wrong' they will check them for a person or company - and I think liker in Aust they can go back 7 years. Plus on top of that every now and then a tax dept will have a 'campaign' and in one year they will check the tax returns of a certain group of people.

I just re-read this statement above - and I am even more 'negative' than I was previously (and yes I have been very negative about this). Based on that statement, it is very clear that the Thai Revenue Department expects to make foreign firms, foreign residents (Expats)and foreign tourusts pay more income taxes than in the past. I sure hope that statement was 'lost in translation' because if it was not, then we now know why the Thai RD and the Thai Govt has not responded with assurances to us Expats, despite all the megative social media coverage of this issue - especially on this forum on the youtube vloggers. It very much looks like the Thai Govt has directed the Thai RD to impose income taxes on the 200K-300K Expats living long term in Thailand. Time to start seriously planning for where to move to, not just talking about it and looking around. As of 30 June 2024 any Expats still living/staying in Thailand since 1 Jan 2024 will become a tax resident and all money remitted into Thailand since January 1 2024 is potenitally taxable.

Sorry mate, but implying that those Expats from a DTA country will not be taxed and will not need to lodge a tax return and nothing will change - is very wrong. The DTA each country holds with Thailand, lists exemptions and exclusions, as well as methods agreed to avoid double taxation for persons/companies operating or living in the 2 countries. it does not mean that Thailand will automatically accept that an Expat froma DTA country does not need to lodge a tax return or does not have an obligation to pay income taxes. Businesses use DTAs every year in every country - in their tax returns - which are done and lodged by tax experts, lawyers, accountants. Unless the Thai RD gives Expats directions/statements that we are not required to lodge a tax return and do not have to claim exemptions and allowances and exclusions under a DTA (like a company does), then we will have to lodge a tax return. A DTA is not a 'get out of jail' card you can just wave at the Thai RD. A DTA is something that is used only when a tax return is lodged. And any claim made under a DTA can be accepted or rejected by the Thai RD - they require an 'acceptable' proof of that claim (to them). Having a DTA is not 'game over' - otherwise all those people avoiding taxes who are from countries with DTAs will still avoid income taxes. The OECD led change that made Thailand change this rule, is not 'exempt' for people from DTA countries. Yes, a DTA means certain things apply - like Pensions are not to be taxed by Thailand (in most cases) - but that is not automatic - it must be 'claimed'. Hopefully, Thailand will not require all Expats remitting money into Thailand to lodge a tax return and prove that they do not have to pay income taxes on that money. At the moment the Thai Govt itself and the Thai RD have not released any statements or advice to that effect.

Please remember though - the big issue on this matter, is will the Thai RD require US Expats to lodge a tax return and prove that the money they remitted into Thailand is from a Pension - or will they issue advice that confirms the DTA exempotion and state that such an Expat does not have to lodge a tax return and 'prove' that.

I hear what you are saying Sheryl - I assume that means that the Thai RD has confirmed to the BOI that their LTR Visa holders are still exempt from income taxes under this rule change. If that is true, that means that Thailand has allowed some Visa holders (LTR) to pay them a certain amount of money, and that excludes them from being subjected to income taxes. IMO that means Thailand is in breach of the OECD rules and regulations that have been established to stop people (and companies) avoid income taxes in the country they are living/operating in. It also means to me, that if Thailand does impose income tax obligations on all non-LTR Visa Expats, that they are saying to us all - You 'not rich' Falang - You pay tax'. WTF?

Thailand aint gonna withdraw from a DTA - BUT the issue is if the Thai RD will accept the claim made by an Expat that their money remitted into Thailand is not taxable under a DTA. It is not a 'get out of jail free' card you can wave - it is an agreement to reduce/prevent double taxation. Tehcnically every individual (company or person) has to CLAIM under a DTA that they are exempt or have allowances or credits. BUT it is still up to the Thai RD whether they agree or not. And - here is the single largest and real issue all Expats will have with this - 'good luck' if they dont agree with your DTA claim. However there is a 'solution' the Thai RD provides clarification statements that specifically advise that Expats with money they remit into Thailand from souces A-Z and is of types 1-50 are not taxable income when remitted into Thailand. That would mean (hopefully) that if an Expat's money of from A-Z and/or is in the form of 1-50 then they do not have to lodge an income tax return.

The latest advice I have from a tax consultant is that it is very unlikley that the Thai RD will require retired/married Expats to pay income taxes. Most money they have is either exempt (Pensions etc.) or is not taxable as it was earned before 1 Jan 2024. However, those actually 'earning' money from things like rental properties and selling shares/investments, might be caught up in the net. However, the unknown issue still reamins whether the Thai RD will require Expats to lodge a tax return and 'prove' their money remitted into Thailand is either exempt or not taxable - and exactly what documents/evidence will the Thai RD require to accept that claim. That is still for me the biggest issue - because what happens if the Thai RD rejects my exemption/not applicable claim, is that I will have to pay their calculated income tax - or dispute their decision in a Thai Tribunal using only Thai documents and communication (and a Thai lawyer).

Simps - that I believe is the modern term for a Beta male. We used to say some blokes are 'pussy whipped' but these days the Simps are far worse. To all newbies and wanna be newbies - Dudley is right. I have seen over the years so many 'simps' get taken for a ride, because they are thinking like they are back in the west where they have been hammered for decades to think that the girl is the prize. The exact opposite exists here in Thailand - and there are lots of good Thai girls who are looking for a good Expat - but you wont find them in bars etc.

And just how are they all going to get in and ouut of that traffic disaster? Helicopters?? How about getting all the roadworks finished you idi***s - otherwise you might get them to come once, but they wont come back if they are stuck in traffic for hours looking out the windows. It has been 3 years sicne Covid shut it all down and there has been lots of announcements about projects getting things ready - but it is now worse than ever. Unbelievable - just unbelievable.

That laptop should be fine for what you are doing. Maybe get another 4GB RAM installed, but I would also suggest it needs a 'clean out' and 'reset'. Do you know anyone with computer experience who can delete all the useless apps and memory wasters that you probably have in the setup, and then reset the OS (and install some additional RAM) ? Do you do any banking or financial transactions on the computer? If so then dont give it to a Thai shop to 'fix it' !!

Good Riddance - now for the rest of them - nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. I note that the bast*** was not with 'his people' in Gaza defending them against attacks - typical of Hamas scum cowards.

Small Toyota or Honda - best value and most reliable.

Buy a cheap old used phone (small one) - they have audio player app inbuilt and plenty power. Delete all apps that you dont need - turn off most settings - dont connect a SIM - download MP3 files to it using laptop/usb. MP3 players are expensive these days - everyone uses their phones.

Agree - it is just people sharing their opinions and ideas. Those complaining about all that 'noise' should just bury their heads a little deeper and cover their ears, and stop complaining about our discussions. Tax Certificate at Immigration - that comment was also made by a tax consultant on their website (forgot which one - too many). They said that if/when the Immigration Dept asks for a 'tax certificate' (or something to show a tax return was completed), then we all know that it is 'game over' and all Expats on long term Visas will all have to lodge a tax return every year. That IMO is the critical nexus point - Will the Thai RD state that Expats are exempted on the basis that the money they bring into Thailand is Pensions and/or Savings (yeehaa) - or will they state that Expats must lodge a tax return and prove to their satisfaction that the money they bring into Thailand is Pensions and/or Savings (bugger) - or will they continue to say nothing and continue to leave us in the dark and waiting. As that recent good article in the Pattaya Mail about Thailand becoming less of a popular places for Retirees states: "That’s no way to run a taxation system or to market a country to the outside world." Thailand’s popularity as a retirement destination nearing crunch point - Pattaya Mail

Arrive and stay at one place for 2-3 days and walk to mall/beach - great. Drive there and park in standard hotel and then get around for 2-3 days - not great. Maybe next year.

Hit the golf ball further and straighter - and sink more putts - same as every year.

No. Except for cars - I have level 2+ and that includes medical costs in an accident (me and others). Medical Insurance in Thailand is IMO too risky (payout) and too expensive (especially after 60 and then it goes up and up). We self insure - have a separate bank account with money in there only for a medical problem - plus use that for the annual renewals. Put into that account every year about the same that insurance would cost. If in 10 years we have never used it, the money is still ours to do as we wish.

Back to the topic at hand:-

Ring the Thailand Embassy in whatever country you are located, and/or want to go to next, and ask them can you get a 60 day Visitor Visa there (say you are staying there). I am sure both Indonesia and Malaysia will be able to do that. When there extend stay by 30 days at Hua Hin Immigration Office, 3-4 days before it expires.

Ever since I first visited Thailand in 2010 there has been many Govt people say that they will address this inequity bla bla bla - the latest one being a bloke at TAT. Nothing ever happens because the entire Thai bureaucracy has the 'Picard Syndrome'. They all think that by saying the matter is going to be fixed (make it so) the problem has been fixed. There are far too many Generals and Chiefs in Thailand who talk about it, but no where near enough people who actually get things done. Richard Barrow actually lists them all - he has been campaigning agianst this for years. Home | 2PriceThailand

Yes - that is the rules and yes a tax consultant will tell you that you must lodge a tax return (with them). Until this current rule change, in Thailand the same thing applied, but retired Expats we excepted. How to Retire in Indonesia - SmartAsset | SmartAsset Indonesia are currently in the processes of making that standard approach (not taxing retired Expats) official - as per those links I sent. But yes, right now 'technically' the rules are not that - just the precedent - so I guess you are right 'technically' and I am wrong.

No person in Indonesia under their Retirement Visa has ever been charged/required to lodge a tax return for any money they brought into the country. I hear you and understand that 'technically' they have tax laws that could be interpreted the way you say, but I understand that the Indonesia Tax Dept previously stated (over 10 years ago) that Retired Expats who bring money into Thailand do not have to pay income tax. I have given up trying to find that - but when I was comparing Retirement Visas for Thailand, Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia back in 2010, that was the case back then. Since then Malaysia has implemented these tax changes, but have also excluded Retired Expats in their MM2H Visa. Thailand has implemented these tax changes - and the issue is - will they exclude retired/married Expats or not - because if they do not then we are included. The Philippines has not implemented these tax changes, but they have stated in their PRA Visa that retired Expats will never be taxed on money they bring into the country - I think that is as good as you are going to get to show if/when they make the tax changes they will exclude retired Expats. Thailand never specifically stated that retired/married (non working) Expats on long term Visas were excluded from income tax - it was just a matter of 'precedence'. But now they need to state it, because if they do not state it, that means they will apply income taxes to all money Expats remit into Thailand - unless that Expat can prove the money was from a source and/or in a form, that is not taxable. Until the Thai RD provides clarifications on Compliance and Enforcement as far as this change effects retired/married Expats, then that means that we are liable to pay income tax on money rtemitted into Thailand. While I almost agree with many people who say they will, I am not making my financial decisions for 2024 based on that hope. I will not be bringing into Thailand during 2024 the amount of money that I normally do each year (I have already brought in extra money this month). My Pension payments will be remitted into Thailand in 2024 but nothing else - and I will see how that pans out, before deciding whether to stay or leave before July 2025. If the Thai RD during 2024 releases clarifications that mean retired/married Expats brining money into Thailand are not subject to income tax, then all will be good.

Fair enough - my bad.