TroubleandGrumpy

Bugger. That means unless the Thai RD has clearly stated I will not be liable to pay income taxes by the end of 2024, then we are out of here before March 2025 - when a tax return is due. Clearly, just staying low and keeping quiet for a few years aint the right strategy.

The Tax payable on 1 Million Baht is about 120,000 Baht. If I stay in Thailand for 10 years (mid 70s) and pay that income tax every year, that totals 1.2 Million Baht. Over 15 years (I will then be close to 80) that is 1.8 Million Baht. Not a chance in Hell I am paying that for the 'privelege3' of being treated like I am in Thailand, for absolutely nothing in return. Sure - they probably will not tax me on all the money I bring into Thailand (but maybne half?),. But the problems of dealing with the Thai RD and all the problems they will cause me, is not worth it. Especially when I consider the probability that they will be way worse than any IO, and they can jail me and fine me huge amounts of money, and then deport me. Here is what I am talking about - Quote from Google - lots of others:- "A fine of THB 2,000 applies for failure to file a tax return by the deadline. Late payment penalties (below) also apply. Intentionally failing to file in an attempt to evade tax will result in a fine of up to THB 5,000, and imprisonment of up to 6 months." "Failing to comply with tax laws in Thailand can result in fines ranging from 1,000 baht to 200,000 baht, depending on the severity of the violation. In addition to the fixed fines, a monthly interest rate of 1.5 percent is applied to the outstanding tax amount." "In Thailand, another common penalty for not sticking to tax laws is imprisonment. Even a minor offense such as forgetting to deduct withholding tax on a single invoice can result in one month of jail time." If Thailand RD clearly conveys what is and what is not personal taxable income for Expats living in Thailand on Retirement and Marriage Visas - then and only then can I feel safe in regards to taxation obligations while I am living as an Expat in Thailand. While those statements above are mainly applicable for Expats owning a business in Thailand or working in Thailand, now that they have expanded their 'net' for personal income taxes, I am not letting this go easily with a 'she''l be right mate' approach. The downsides of being caught up in this could be huge. Sure it could also be a storm in a tea cup. But until I know that for sure, I am going to remember those very wise words - "There are only two things that you cannot avoid - Death and Taxes".

Best to stay that way and see what happens ????

Good point. Ok then - how about this (if stopped) "I am leaving to attend a family funeral, and that is why my Wife is not with me - I will be back within a week as per the return flight I have." and/or "What letter from the Revenue Department?".

Yes - the Old Age Pension and it is not taxable income and it is not taxed. I have savings in a Super Fund from working for many years - which I also remit to Thailand as required. The Pension is less than 500K Baht (well over 150K) - so I also remit about 500K Baht from Super savings. Tax was paid on my working income oiver many years put into Super and any withdrawals are tax free. But the problem is - if I lodge a tax return - what documents will be acceptable to the Thai RD to prove that tax has either been paid in Australia (savings in Super) or is not applicable (Pension payments). If I am required to show that tax has already been paid on the Super savings I have no way to prove that. I can show that I received a Pension with a statement from Govt, but Super Funds do not provide detailed reports or statements that show any tax has been paid in the past. My annual statements from Govt regarding Taxes and Pension are July 1 to June 30 - getting Jan 1 to Dec 30 statements is near impossible. That statement you made is the issue - "I guess Thailand RD will not classify any of those amounts as taxable income." The problem is you/I do not know that for sure - and at the moment the 'advice' is to lodge a tax return and 'claim' tax credits as per the Thai/Aust DTA, and then see what happens - you sjould be fine mate. Well my answer toi that, given that I know a lot about tax organisations and the Thai bureacracy, is no thank you. I need to know (and should have the right to know ) now or soon, exactly what they will classify as taxable income - and none of the 'tax experts' know. Likewise, the 'tax experts' are saying that if you remit more than about 150K Baht into Thailand in 2024, then you should be lodging a tax return, and you claim the credits/offsets on tax already paid. So how will I claim 'credits' when the Pension is not taxed, and the Super Savings was taxed a long time ago when they were income, and any growth sicne then is taxed at 15% (an the Super Fund level - not account by account). Like you said - wait and see what happens - and hope I am not one of the 'early adopters' or as we say in Aust 'the bleeding edge'.

Ditto mate.

Good points BUT you are being reasonable and logical. There is no guarantee that the Thai RD will also be the same. For those of us that plan to spend about 1 million baht a year (every year) this is huge. Even though we have no tax liability to Thailand (other than VAT) because all the money is from our savings from previous years of working (plus a small pension). I am not willing to lodge a tax return based on 1 million baht remittances and APPLY for tax credits to offset whatever taxes Thailand will try to apply. What will happen if that 'application' is rejected for whatever reasons by the Thai RD. Am I going to pay 50-100K+ for a Thai lawyer to lodge an appeal - no way - I will just leave. The fact is that a LOT of Expats in a similar situation to me are also planning to leave - which country, where and when. I am planning while I wait to see what happens. If the Thai RD starts nailing Expats, or I receive a latter from Thai RD about my deposits into Thailand, that is the trigger. The wife has agreed already - Malaysia or The Philippines - or we might just go back to Australia earlier than planned (a lot earlier). I would much rather stay here for 10-15 years and spent at least 10-15 million baht in Thailand - but I refuse to pay taxes to a Government that treats me like a tourist and demands 90 day reporting, TM30s, Annual payment/begging to stay, permission to leave and re-enter, double poricing, etc etc etc. Rant over ????

Yes mate - that is so true. BUT if Expats are required/forced to lodge a tax return every year (for whatever reason), we will all be running the risk of being 'nailed' by Thai RD. Unlike the Immigration IOs, Thai RD offiocers do not want the correct paperwork bla bla bla, the Thai RD want your money - and if you dont pay you can get arrested, fined, sent to jail and then deported. The worst thing (if you are legal) Immigration can do to you (happened to a mate) is that you have to leave the country, apply for a new Visa and then come back and start again (if approved). If the Thai RD processes are totally screwed up and inconsitent, and you/I get caught in their net, it is highly probable that we will be screwed over - I cant see them saying 'sowwy - we wong'. I see this as like the decision to wear a helmet when riding a bike. Immigration is like riding the bike slowly down to to the local 7-11 on the corner. RD is like riding the bike fast around a race track - the negative consequences if something goes wrong are much more extreme. I will be wearing a helmet (avoiding the RD) even if I ride the bike to the the neighbour's house.

That is my reason for not lodging a Tax Return in 2025 in Thailand of any subsequent years. I stopped working in 2014, and officially retired in 2023, when I started to receive the Government Pension. I still do an annual tax return in Australia and any taxes applicable have been already paid in Australia. If Somchai in the local RD Office has a problem with that he is welcome to put forward in writing the reasons for me not lodging a tax return over the previous X years. The immediate result of receiving such a letter from the Thai RD signed by Somchai, will be myself and Thai Wife packing and leaving Thailand permanently.

Exactly - and the same for me - in Aust the annual taxation and reporting period is July 1 to 30 June. None of the financial or superannuation companies provide annual reports Jan to Dec. That are so many other complications that IMO this whole move is about as well thought out as a BLM protest in LA (or a riot in Belfast). It is not a matter of compliace, IMO it is a matter of avoiding all the potential hairs this thing has on it. Good luck convincing Somchai in the local RD Office, that the 5 million baht you brought into Thailand last year (Car, House, Tractor, 800K Deposit etc etc) was not income. Sure it technically was savings from past earnings that were previously taxed and from a pension, but proving that to Somchai who wants that 1.5 million in Tax so he will get a bonus/promotion, is not going to be an easy thing to do - especially when he does not speak English and any 'appeal or complaint' has to be lodged in Thai. IMO the wise thing to do is to keep low and not bring too much money into Thailand over the next few years, and wait and see what happens. I pity the first Expat caught in this new net - but I hope it is him and not me.

Come on mate - surely you know they are only saying that because they want to buy/lease some new planes and then take their share of the kickback.

3.28 million tourists from Malaysia my butt. The majority of that number is people crossing the border down south for family and business reasons - and most of them do it several times. Likewise the numbers from Laos, Myanmar and Cambodia are 'fake'. In fact all of the number are fake because they do not count those entering with a tourist Visa (or Visa exempt) - they count all the arrivals and then TAT calls them tourists and TAT claims they each spend 50K - totally fake figures. That the tourism 'boom' has not resulted in measurable economic growth and higher employment proves that the TAT figures are fake. Until TAT is called out and stops releasing these fake figures, nothing will change. If they counted only those arriving at airports/docks, who also posses a tourist Visa (or Visa exempt) the numbers would be a lot lower. But TAT gets paid for how many tourists they get to come to Thailand - what a great job it is when you can measure your own performance using whatever method you decide.

Did that already - last week - no response ????

DTAs dont work like that - you get a credit for tax paid already in home country (which you have to prove). But I do agree - I just wish they would clearly state that Expats pensions and savings do not apply.

I hear you mate - it is a very poor decision regarding those Expats who bring a lot of money into Thailand, and have done so for a long time, and intend to do so going forward. They are risking losing our 800K to 1 million a year, just to grab a few 10s of thousands in taxes. Lets face it - Thailand is full of people that can not and do not, plan/think ahead very well. I think this will work out fine - and there is no way I will be lodging a tax return in Thailand. But if I am wrong and they demand we all lodge tax returns - then we are leaving Thailand permanently. Meanwhile, the chances of me/us buying a new car next year or buying a property in the future, are zero.

Yes that is who they are after - those using that loophole already. But whop else will they catch in the net is the question and also the problem. Until it is clear how they are going to apply this new rule, if it goes ahead, it is not 'all clear'.

Yes you will be a tax resident then, and for those planning to return to Thailand for short periods (after Jan 1 2025), you are right and it would be wise to leave before that date in June.

The first question is 'Do I need to do an annual tax return in Thailand in 2025 because I am a tax resident and I have money coming in from overseas'. If the official Thai RF answer is NO - then all is good. If the official Thai RF answer is YES - then it is not good. The second question is 'Do I need to do an annual tax return in Thailand in 2025 because I am a tax resident and I have money coming in from overseas, but none of that is taxable in Thailand (as per DTA etc.)'. If the official Thai RF answer is NO - then all is great. If the official Thai RF answer is YES, we tell you what applies under the DTA - then it is not good. Some time later in 2024 we will know if this is all good, or if this is not good and we are (most) in trouble.

Maybe. Other options are Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia (Bali for the Aussies). Cheap airfares back to Thailand to visit family, friends, girls - stay less than 180 days in total any calendar year.

Not when/if the Immigration requires an annual tax clearance as one of the conditions for renewal. And there are so many other ways thius can go wrong for Expats. However, wait until mid-late 2024 when (hopefully) Thai RD has provided clarifications and details of the process. PS - some say I am over-reacting. Yes that is probably true. BUT I have had many years of expoerience in dealing with Govt Depts in Aust (especially ATO) and I know about many people who got caught out. And you do not want to get caught out by the Thai RD - much harsher penalties than ATO. Stay across it and stay informed - by end 2024 we will know how bad or good it really is.

Careful - international deposits are recorded - and the wife might be required to pay income tax on all of that money she was 'paid' by you. I thought the same thing - but it also has hairs on it.

That is the only way to 'avoid' this problem that I have seen so far. However, you could be asked one day 'where you get money to pay for things' - but that is extremely unlikely. If you do that - keep it to yourself - people talk too much and one day some Thai might report you. And yes - cash is taxable, depending on how you obtained it.

If this does not go away, they could require it to be a condition of annual renewal to provide a tax clearnace/return (like those foreigners that work here). Plus they could also require all banks to provide to them with the financial details of any Expat that they suspect of avoiding taxes. If you have had international deposits totalling over 150K they could request you provide details of what the money came from, and ask why you have not done any tax returns (after 2024). I am not saying this will happen, I am saying it could happen, and it would be wise for all Expats getting overseas money/payments into Thailand (all of us) to carefully consider this matter and watch how things develop over the next year or so. Unlike, say Philippines, where they have a specific tax definition for Expats on long term retirement Visas, Thailand has no 'allowance' for Expats - you are either a tax resident or you are not in Thailand.

Yes and No - and I would recommend avoiding taking such a course of action. How it works is that once they 'look at you', the Thai RD can request all banking details related to yourself be provided to them by the banks and all financial institutions in Thailand. Sure it is no problem until they 'find you' - same for anyone not getting annual renewals - it is all good until caught. But unlike Immigration, the RD will look to take their 'pound of flesh' going back for years, and they will jail you if you dont pay, and then deport you. This is not the west where tax avoidance is a fine and a slap on the wrist - here they send you to jail - to a Thai jail - and you do not want to go there just for a few 10s of thousand baht.

There are two groups of Expats who live in Thailand that do have a 'representative body' - Koreans and Japanese. The Japanese are the biggst group by a long way. Hopefully, one or both of those groups are seeking an 'audience'. Also, there are a lot of Chinese Expats in Thailand - however many of them are the type that they are targetting to stop avoiding taxation in Thailand. It has been tried a few times over the years (getting a 'western' Expat Group together) but being so 'individualistic' we are very hard to organise and coordinate. Unlike the Japanese who take a very 'community' view to things, western Expats tend to want what they want first, and agreement is hard to reach on most subjects. Just look at the bickering that goes on in this forum - and it is always the loudest who complain the most, so most reasonable people just 'walk away'.