TroubleandGrumpy

It starts 1 Jan 2024 - yes so money transferred after that is the issue. BOI are not the PM or RD. I have (both) and the tax expert does not know - needs more details on how they will implement this change.

Something tells me he is one of the good ones, and that we are going to hear a lot more about Surachate Hakparn. The fact that he 'attracted the attention' of those in the Thai Police who wanted to make sure he does not become Police Chief so they raided his house in public - speaks volumes. If he was one of 'them' (corrupt) then they would not have taken such steps to make sure he did not get appointed as Chief this time. This is a guy that was 're-assigned' to the HQ 'black hole' many years ago, and re-emerged a year or so later, and then became a Deputy Chief. He made some senior police upset over how he harshly dealt with the police involved in that execution of a policeman by a mafia member, and because of that the station police boss killed himself. Many years ago he had 7 bullets fired into his car, and he was told to back down when investigating the matter and that was when he was 're-assigned'. Those things and many other things tells me that he is one of the good guys. But TiT and I could be wrong.

Same in Australia.

When you go somewhere in Thailand are you alone - if you have a Thai wife/gf then place the booking her name and avoid providing passport - that way no TM30 is done and you dont have to when returning. If you are alone - it is likely they will lodge a TM30 - but ask them if they do - say you would rather they dont. If they say they will do, or you think they will, you need agent/condo to lodge a TM30 when you get back to condo. If you go overseas, your agent/condo must lodge a TM30 when you return - they have record of you leaving the country. The issue/problem becomes what happens at annual extension - some places strictly enforce the rules and penalties, some dont bother.

I hear you and understand - my Thai wife is in the same boat for Australia. For her getting to Australia was about the same as for me getting a Thailand Retirement Visa some years ago - but after that her path to Residency and then Citizenship was easy and achievable.My path to Residency and Citizenship here in Thailand is basically impossible - and I am a far more 'valuable' resource to Thailand, than my wife ever will be to Australia. IMO Thailand should have different Resdiency requirements for citizens from 'selected' countries, such as USA and Australia, that make Residency easier to be achieved. The Thailand Immigration Act, Laws and Proceedures were made in the 1970s and they are still mentally and structurally back there. I do agree that Thai Citizenship should be much harder to achieve than it was for my wife in Australia, because I can see what would happen if it was too easy. But Thai Residency should be far more achievable - and perhaps one day in the future it will be.

Nail on the head HIT. Tax exmpt in Australia means less than $18,200 (427K Baht today). Tax exempt in Thailand is 150K Baht. Which one applies under the DTA? Thai RD does not respond, and website useless, as expected. Do I have to pay to ask a Thai tax accountant? Anyone here know the answer?

Yep 57 pages and it is totally voluntary - both to read and write. Noen of the That taxation professionals know - and that is the problem. But even then, as my accountants back home always advised over the years - it is worth knowing and doing what is needed BEFORE it becomes a problem, rather than waiting until it is a problem. I will never forget the best example - "they are going to start taxing money in super funds over xyz amount and I suggest over the next month or two you move abc funds into your bla bla investment accounts". Sure enough, 3 months later the Govt announced new taxation rates for super funds - applicable immediately. If you know of a taxation expert in Thailand that has all the answers and knows exactly what and how the Thai RD is going to do it, please pray tell us all. Meanwhile I am interested in hearing what others think and any information, and I will likewise share what I think and information I find about what wil happen after Jan 1 2024 - voluntarily.

I would ignore the guy mate - judging by his past 'activity' I have added him/her/it to my blocked list.

This article from a while back shows that this was always coming: Newly released Royal Act for the Exchange of Info.... - KPMG Thailand The Junta overlooked telling people, especially the applicants for the LTR and Elite Visas, and they did nothing about preparing for it. The Junta allowed many of those target organisations and people to move money into and out of Thailand, using that 'tax free' arrangement - especially the Chinese based 'mafia' (some say 'overlords'). The Thai RD were not prepared, even though this has been coming for years, because the Junta was 'otherwise occupied' and never gave them the 'go ahead'. This sudden move to comply with 'international obligations' with regards to the 'trafficking' of money by terrorist and illegal organisations will start on Jan 1 2024 because the Thai Govt are desperate for funds. After many years of inaction, this should have been announced for 2025 - giving the Thai RD time to prepare. But I am sure that the new PM decided to implement the change immediately, once they got a good look at the books and realised how bad things really are. A suspicious person might say that the months of delay in getting a new Govt in place had something to do with both avoiding a disaster (Pita tearing them all apart) and also so that those who needed to move 'things' here and there, had the necessary time to do so. Either way, whatever the reasons, this is happenning and the Thai RD is not prepared, and we Expats could be caught up in the net, and it would be wise IMO to stay across this issue.

Good Point John. I had not thought about that one. Employees at Thai RD would be a serious risk. Did you know that when that Malaysian flight 370 'disappeared' many years ago, that of the 272 passengers 19 of them had false passports. That is also what is done with 'stolen' personal information - and the number one source is first world people visiting third world countries. I always let the wife make rural hotel bookings in her name plus husband - and then wait outside while she checks in. Give Somchai at the 'Royal Cheapie Resort' in Issan my passport - none and buckleys. OK at Marriott or Amari - but not the cheapies.

That 150K is the number of employed 'well off' Expats in Thailand - and the largest group is the Japanese. That number is reliable because the numbers are counted and monitored by the Thai Govt. It is estimated that there are about 250-300K 'well off' Expats who are either retired or marrried or digital nomads etc. Expats being any foreigner that stays in Thailand over 180 days in a year. That number is not counted or monitored as such - each Province does it differently and most do not count how many. They also estimated (at peak) that 1.5 to 2 million 'poorer' workers were in Thailand working (legally and illegally) with the vast majority being from the bordering countries.

Maybe True - Maybe Not. I do know that anyone who rides a scooter without a helmet needs to think a bit more. IMO Forwarned is Forearmed.

I think the delay by some Reps has been due to the single largest threat to America since the British invaded. Kamala Harris would become POTUS !! I think the proof and impeachment/s will happen in 2024 - some time before November, but not too soon.

I think that if you can prove a paper trail - pension to bank account - bank acccount to wise - wise to Thai Bank, then you 'should' be OK. I say should because that would be 'compliance' under any western Govt taxation rules and regs, but who knows how the Thai RD will see that, and what documents would they demand you provide to 'prove' the matgter. Translated? Notarised? Signed by a Director at the Bank?? There are three things that for me are the major problems. One is of course will Thai RD believe that my transfers into Thailand are taxable income. Two is as per above, what sort of hoops and jumps and expenses and troubles will I have to go through and over in order to provide the Thai RD what they demand. And number three is the Big One ???? Number thgree is that unlike most 'offences' like speeding, and others like our annual ever-changing dealings with Thai Immigration, liable taxation is a 'permanent' problem. Those other things are a once off event and although they can be annoying or painful, they go away each year. Liable Taxation is like Murder, it never goes away and if/when you are caught out, the investigation and punishment is backdated. That is what seriosuly worries me. In 5-8-10-12 years time I receive a letter from Thai RD claiming that I owe millions of baht in back taxes, advising me that my passport has been 'held' and any attempt to leave Thailand before finalisation of the issue is a criminal offence and will be severely punishable (and will be an admission of guilt). Imagine driving/riding around with the worry that if you are caught speeding today, the police will also fine you for every speeding offence you committed over the last 5-8-10-12 years, plus add penalties. That is what it is like when it comes to being nailed with taxation breaches - it was how they got Al Capone. From the most hardened criminals right through to the 'mai pen rai' folks, tyhey all know that you do not mess with the taxation department.

Me thinks he better keep quiet and stay hidden ????

Thanks for letting me know - I did not know that. When it comes to taxation it is never easy. Lets hope the same end game situation does not happen again, and this time 200,000 Expats leave Thailand.

Yes - I agree - but being prepared rather than reacting late 'oh bugger what do I do now' is a wise move IMO. If you really think that this is not potentially a huge problem (for some of us) then read this: Sending a large money transfer to Thailand? What to know about taxes | Xe Blog Quote: Income Tax The gift tax might or might not apply when you send money to Thailand, but the income tax almost always applies. Additionally, Thailand’s tax penalties are rather harsh. High fines and even jail time are rather common, even for rather innocent mistakes. Penalties and interest on unpaid taxes are usually 1.5% per month. So, by the time the revenue department notices the error and sends a notice, the taxpayer might already owe thousands of baht in penalties and interest. Fines for unpaid taxes usually run between about ฿1,000 THB ($33 USD) and ฿200,000 THB ($6,700 USD). Banks are legally required to report all remittance and other international funds transactions. So, even if recipients do not get a form, if they do not add the remittance amount to their income, it’s only a matter of time before the revenue department notices the delinquency and takes action. On a related note, when you send money to Thailand, especially if the transfer is large, Thai law requires senders to specify the purpose. IMO it is always better to know about it and make plans, than to find out too late and then your planning is rushed and under a cloud of hectic worry. IMO cooly and calmly planning for things now is a wise move. But as the Thai girls always say - 'up to you'.

I mean an average in 1 Million Baht being brought into Thailand each year - which the Thai PM wants to tax and the Thai RD will, unless you/I/others can prove it was not income but savings. And even then - it appears that part of the 'savings' might be included as taxable income on the basis that is was 'earned money' from previous years. Yes - those in the Thai Govt think illogically and do not plan ahead very well - it is so obvious to us all. When the Queen died she was buried within 2 weeks - everything and everybody was organised already. In Thailand it took over one year - and dont give me 'religious practice' - the real main reason is because it takes that long to organise everyone (and for them all to agree on where when and how).

Yes it is 180 days - iun total during any calendar year. No one can answer those specific questions - no one knows - yet. It starts Jan 1 2024 - before 30 June 2024 when the 180 days applies, we will have all those answers and a lot more - or we will be leaving Thailand.

IMO Americans will not be subjected to this new 'interpretation' - wait for confirmation, but it is very clear to me (and I know a bit about this area). American citizens are required to pay taxes irrespective of where they live in the World, and the US Tax Authorities mandate that all other countries coimpley with this - or else. Thailand will not be able to tax Americans on any monies transferred to Thailand under their DTA, and the US Tax Dept will be responding very strongly if they attempt to do so. USA is the only country in the world (AFAIK) that does this and gets away with it worldwide.

Good questions - and I wish that the Thai Govt would count the number of us all. If they did then they would realise that we are worth a large amount of money to them. Meanwhile TAT counts every day-visitor who walks over the borders as a tourist and the Thai Govt believes their lies. My estimate is that about 50-100K would fall into those categories you gave - but that is just a guess. I do know that there are a lot of Expats with money living in Thailand that bring over more than 1 Million Baht each year - especially those that buy a proeprty or a new car.

The Malaysian 'retirement' packages are good - they cost a little money and are not for the cheap Charlies living only on a pension, but as a mate told me years ago, that is a good thing. Take a look at Penang - it has been recommended by many and it is the place we are currently looking at - as well as other countries nearby. One of the great thigns about the Malaysian packages is that they are 'Govt guranteed' and none of the conditions can be changed - they have been in place for over 10 years and are well proven. When I compare that to the khrapp Thailand has done to me since 2012, Malaysia is a clear winner in that regards. The Thai wife is adamant that she/I will not be taxed on the 1 million+ Baht money I bring into Thailand every year - and she is also adamant that if they impose mandatory rip-off health insurance then we will leave. If either of those things happen, we will leave and live 'nearby' so that we can easily visit - but never for more than 6 months of the year. Our plan was to base ourselves in Thailand and travel - now it looks like we will be based somewhere else, and Thailand will become one of the places where we will visit.

Excellent article - well written and thoughtful. BUT I believe that this will get zero airtime within the new Govt/PM because IMO who/what they are really after, is all the corrupt foreigners (Mafia), especially the Chinese ones, that have infiltrated Thailand under the Junta's watch using LTR, Elite and other Visas. Unfortunately, it appears that unless specifically excluded, many of us retired and/or married Expats will be caught up in this 'crackdown'. Those holders of LTR and Elite Visas who paid big bucks on the promise of a 'zero income tax' arrangement, are about to be screwed over. I say unfortunately, because in order to apply those screws, they have to be applied across all 'foreigners' living in Thailand. The article points out that there are an estimated 300K of 'well off' Expats living in Thailand as either retired or married, plus another 150K well off Expats who are working here - they excluded the 1-2 million? poorer temp workers and illegals from Myamar Cambodia etc. The article suggests that if this income tax is applied as it looks like it will be, then many of those Expats will leave Thailand, and that far less will decide to retire/move to Thailand in future. While othger countries are trying to attract retirees to live there, Thailand is continuing to do things that will drive us out, and keep others away. 300K times 1 Million Baht on average per year for each Expat totals 300 Billion Baht. I wonder if the Thai Govt/PM will listen to the fact that much of that money could be leaving Thailand soon, and also that it will not be coming back in every year. I also wonder if the Thai Govt/PM realises that (according to TAT) 300 Billion Baht equals 6 Million Tourists. Even if you halve those numbers it still totals 150 Billion Baht or 3 Million Tourists. I wonder if they have said to themselves - 300K Expats times 150K each in income tax, equals 45 Billion in taxation revenue - Dee Mak Mak Chai Chai ????. Actually, I would not be surprised - Thai (ill)logic never ceases to amaze me.

Very true and there are many other potential problems with what has been done by this new PM who is desperately in need of taxation money following a decade of the Junta 'deplenishing' the piggy bank. If anyone still thinks this is not a potentially very serious problem, then they need to read below. This is from the 2022/23 Thailand Taxation booklet provided by @MartinL: Assessable Income Residents and non-residents are taxed on their assessable income derived from employment or business carried on in Thailand, regardless of whether the income is paid in or outside Thailand. Residents who derive income from outside Thailand will be subject to tax only where the income is remitted into Thailand in the year in which it is derived IMO that last sentance will be changed in the Taxation Booklet for 2024/25 into something like this - Residents who derive income from outside Thailand will be subject to tax only where when the income is remitted into Thailand in irrespective of the year in which it is derived. IMO is was under the current 'directive' that money being brought into Thailand by long-term Expats was not considered to be 'taxable income'. The change to the current directive announced by the PM, will mean that money being transferred into Thailand by Expats is potentially 'taxable income'. What will be considered taxable income by Thai RD, and what will not, in regards to Expat remittances into Thailand, is yet to be seen. As I have said before, IMO anyone who gets a Govt Pension from one of the 61 DTA countries, should be fine. But anyone who transfers over to Thailand money from their savings/investments overseas, is potentially now going to have to deal with that money being declared taxable income by Thai RD. For those unaware, having taxable income does not mean you will have to pay tax. There are a lot of matters that then come into consideration before 'taxable income' becomes 'tax payable'. Until we see more details, and until clarifications are made, we do not know for sure which way this will go. To all those that think it absolutely will not go the 'bad' way, I certainly hope that you are right. Meanwhile the rest of us will continue to reasses things as they develop, while making alternative plans regarding how to avoid this taxation problem - including not living in Thailand, or only staying in Thailand for 179 days maximum in any calendar year.

What is sad about many Thais (and TAT) is that they would love to see that in Thailand - especially those that have businesses there - making money is too much in their minds. Many Thais dont seem to think about the downsides of what they do - that is the problem in living 'up to me and only now'. Those 2 poor tourists killed by a Thai driving a boat through a restricted area is just one of millions of examples every day here. I wont say what I would do to him if it was my kids that he killed being a selfish self-centred (rear end hole).