loonodingle

Don't forget guys it was widely reported that Hannah had some problems in the AC bar before she left. This is where this stems from I don't doubt. She was followed a few 100 meters along the beach on her way back to her room.

Loonodingle

If we accept the dna, that in itself does not mean guilt,

The next stage is to ask how and why the dna is present, there are many reasons why the dna could be erroneous , from contamination to human error, does the supporting evidence fit with the facts and scenario

Its a bit like a confession, there is a need to question details of a confession in order to corroborate against the known facts.

Personally I find the whole thing a headache but that's because none of us know what the defence and prosecution has.

The RTP cleansed or failed to obtain evidence in favour of a certain family.

The refused to allow for verification of the DNA. Which potentially means it could all be false. Or do you think they lie about some of it and not others.

Further have you seen what they done to Hannah?

Islandlover

Just to clarify from the reports there are 4 cigarette buts, one found on the 19th September and three before this date

If we are to believe the DNA is a fix then we cannot give credence to any DNA reports at all. We cant believe one announcement and not the other.

Whilst I agree with you that the dna could be erroneous , it cannot be dismissed based solely on the reason that it is not liked.

The dna has to be accepted until it is proved to be inconsistent with the facts supporting it

.

The cigarette but found on the 19th is interesting for a number of reasons,

It was found 4 days after the Murders, why was it not found on the first day, how did it elude being located earlier, how did Hannah's dna get on the but, who is the other person's dna , why was the but not washed away during High tides, how did the dna survive the high tides.

The first group of 3 buts found, one contained a lipstick mark, a bit of speculation , David was seen with a woman and man around 2am have these identified

The problem you have with that theory is if you believe the DNA then they are guilty as per the re-enactment surely?

Yes, precisely; the reason is prejudice.

Never mind evaluating things on their own merits, just go with the prejudice, self satisfaction 100% guaranteed!

Prejudice??????

Ya full of s!*$ sometimes.

Some of us have had first hand experience, personally I have had 2 extremely expensive shakedowns costing me huge sums of baht so I can speak with experience.

The Thai Press have the same opinions as well.

You just come on here to wind people up. Probably Sat with your cheap whisky on your own.... LOL..

Yes, prejudice, crying I've been done wrong so this other people are also being done wrong is prejudice.

As for winding people up, remember this?

post-69687-0-24055400-1421591021.jpg

Childish, petty trolling, and by picking some person's photo and passing it as being me, dishonest to boot. I guess that's what you call "critical thinking"?

You may wish to use some other sources rather than mine to set the scene for this case.

"Koh Tao case with prosecutors now; UK asked to launch independent probe

Foreign countries are not permitted to have investigators look into crimes that occur in Thailand, as that would be considered a violation of the country's sovereignty, Police chief Pol General Somyot Pumpunmuang said yesterday.

He was referring to the murder of Britons David Miller and Hannah Witheridge on Koh Tao last month. Doubts have been raised about the police investigation that led to the arrest of two migrant workers from Myanmar, with many people claiming that the pair are scapegoats."

Link Below:

http://www.asianewsnet.net/Foreign-investigators-barred-from-Thailand-police--66057.html

Editorial: Independent Test of Koh Tao Suspects' DNA Needed

Due to Thai police's unprofessionalism and history of forced confessions, an impartial review of the Koh Tao murder case is needed to ensure justice.

Last week, Thai police arrested two Burmese men and accused them of murdering two British tourists on Koh Tao island on 15 September. According to police, not only did the two men confess, but their DNA samples matched DNA traces found on one of the victim’s bodies. The two men, named Saw and Win, are facing charges that could be punished with the death penalty.

Thai police have been under an immense amount of pressure to arrest a suspect behind the murder, with authorities and local residents concerned that the incident could damage Thailand’s already-ailing tourist industry. There has also been societal pressure for Thailand to avoid “losing face” over the barbaric murder, which has perhaps prompted police to point the finger at non-Thais from the start.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1412595379&section=02

rockingrobin, on 04 Feb 2015 - 21:51, said:

I posted these 2 articles earlier and have just now had time to review them

A cigarette butt found near the bodies on Friday (September 19) contained the DNA of Ms Witheridge and another person. It was believed the second person was someone she knew because the cigarette was shared -

http://www.thephuket...n-men-48820.php

Maw, 23, whose DNA matched that found on a cigarette butt had not been charged as of yesterday.

Acting commander of the police Institute of Forensic Medicine, Pol Lt-General Manoo Mekmok, said two semen samples found on the female murder victim matched that from Win and Saw, and the one found on the cigarette at the scene of the crime matched that of Maw

Is it reasonable to come to the following

Maw is Muang Muang and the cigarette with his dna is the same cigarette with Hannah's dna,

Yes, indeed Maw or Mau is Maung Maung. We see in this report that the DNA on the cigarette butt matched Maung Maung and Hannah, yet there are other reports which say the DNA on the cigarette butt matched the semen collected from Hannah. So, have they tested two cigarette butts? Most confusing.

Islandlover

Just to clarify from the reports there are 4 cigarette buts, one found on the 19th September and three before this date

If we are to believe the DNA is a fix then we cannot give credence to any DNA reports at all. We cant believe one announcement and not the other.

Yes, precisely; the reason is prejudice.

Never mind evaluating things on their own merits, just go with the prejudice, self satisfaction 100% guaranteed!

Prejudice??????

Ya full of s!*$ sometimes.

Some of us have had first hand experience, personally I have had 2 extremely expensive shakedowns costing me huge sums of baht so I can speak with experience.

The Thai Press have the same opinions as well.

You just come on here to wind people up. Probably Sat with your cheap whisky on your own.... LOL..

Yes, prejudice, crying I've been done wrong so this other people are also being done wrong is prejudice.

As for winding people up, remember this?

post-69687-0-24055400-1421591021.jpg

Childish, petty trolling, and by picking some person's photo and passing it as being me, dishonest to boot. I guess that's what you call "critical thinking"?

Well what's the saying hey!!! the truth hurts...........

I must say I was having a bad day until you posted your picture again................. oh dear the tears are running down my face again.............

I think the cig butt is a canard. Whether or not two people sucked on the same cig butt, 50 meters from the crime scene (and when?), is moot. At beach parties, it's not impossible for someone to see a discarded butt, still alight, and take a hit.

Hopefully, the victims' bodies were scrutinized for any clues (other peoples' bodily fluids, hair, DNA, skin remnants, pubic hairs, etc) very soon after the crime. We've heard RTP did some of that (supposedly), but it's already been established that RTP are inept in that regard. Those of us seeking truth and justice were hoping the Brit Coroner's Office would do at least the minimum they're required to do for British Subjects killed abroad. As a rule, when a corpse comes to their lab, they do testing right away. Did they do their jobs with the two victims? We don't know, and may never know, the way things are digressing. If there's extreme diplomatic pressure from Thailand's top military/politicos (to not do a thorough job and/or delay findings indefinitely), then that could explain why the Brit Coroner is dragging her feet. It's already public knowledge that the Thai PM expressly forbade Brit experts from doing ANY investigating in Thailand. Connect the dots.

Why, of course you would dismiss actual physical evidence in favour of your own unsupported conspiracy theories. All in the name of Truth and Justice.

Can't counter any of my suppositions with anything viable, so just grab a handful of dirt and throw it. Repeating the phrase 'conspiracy theory' incessantly won't make it true. Remember Chatty Kathy doll from the 1950's? You pull a string on her back and she says prerecorded things. You and jdinasia are like those dolls which mindlessly say the same pre-recorded things, while adding little to the discussion.

If you knew the definition of conspiracy theory and then stacked it against the pap smear which the the RTP is dishing out to weak-minded gullibleoids, you'll get a good fit.

Some of us have the mental capacity to think critically and not believe all the BS we are fed. Perhaps some others have had their grey matter washed away in a cloud of alcohol fumes.. .............................

I think the cig butt is a canard. Whether or not two people sucked on the same cig butt, 50 meters from the crime scene (and when?), is moot. At beach parties, it's not impossible for someone to see a discarded butt, still alight, and take a hit.

Hopefully, the victims' bodies were scrutinized for any clues (other peoples' bodily fluids, hair, DNA, skin remnants, pubic hairs, etc) very soon after the crime. We've heard RTP did some of that (supposedly), but it's already been established that RTP are inept in that regard. Those of us seeking truth and justice were hoping the Brit Coroner's Office would do at least the minimum they're required to do for British Subjects killed abroad. As a rule, when a corpse comes to their lab, they do testing right away. Did they do their jobs with the two victims? We don't know, and may never know, the way things are digressing. If there's extreme diplomatic pressure from Thailand's top military/politicos (to not do a thorough job and/or delay findings indefinitely), then that could explain why the Brit Coroner is dragging her feet. It's already public knowledge that the Thai PM expressly forbade Brit experts from doing ANY investigating in Thailand. Connect the dots.

Why, of course you would dismiss actual physical evidence in favour of your own unsupported conspiracy theories. All in the name of Truth and Justice.

Most probably because the RTP have a history of fitting people up. ?????

Yes, precisely; the reason is prejudice.

Never mind evaluating things on their own merits, just go with the prejudice, self satisfaction 100% guaranteed!

Prejudice??????

Ya full of s!*$ sometimes.

Some of us have had first hand experience, personally I have had 2 extremely expensive shakedowns costing me huge sums of baht so I can speak with experience.

The Thai Press have the same opinions as well.

You just come on here to wind people up. Probably Sat with your cheap whisky on your own.... LOL..

Why stop at those contrived inconsistencies?

"Muang Muang said, he woke the boys up and asked for the guitar. The boys said it was at ac bar. Muang said he went to get it."

That's funny, because the boys grown up men standing for trial at the hearing said they were too drunk to remember anything that happened that night, which also doesn't match with what the parents of Zaw said about him "He doesn't drink alcohol and has never done anything violent before."

Then the grown up adults under trial said "we are victims of influential people" and that "We think the killer went to another country already" but when asked if they knew if anyone else had done the crime or was implicated with it they said "We really don’t know. We were drunk, just went back home. We know nothing"

Then they said "A police officer hit the side of his face and the interpreter also hit him four times. Then the police threatened to electrocute them" then they said they were "scalded with boiling water" (which amazingly didn't led to the second or third degree burns as boiling water would cause in normal human beings)

Last, but not least, first they said they murdered the two Britons and then they said they didn't; of course they said that confession was under duress during interrogation, but they also "told a Burmese embassy legal team they had murdered English tourists Hannah Witheridge and David Miller by bludgeoning them to death with a hoe".

In view of this inconsistencies and the physical evidence against them, perhaps you should contemplate the possibility that they may be guilty of brutally murdering two young people.

How funny. These two grown men who are 21 killed two young people who were 24.

Isnt it wonderful how it is Ok for you to manipulate language while at the same time accuse other people of doing the same thing.

And also stop telling us not to cherry pick what the RTP say, then cherry pick what you are accusing the boys/young men of saying.

But I do agree with you. David was definitely killed with a hoe. That's why it had his DNA all over it.

Absolutely. And even a blind fool can see clearly that the cuts on David's face were made with the sharp end of the hoe

Personally I think it could have been the small short sharp hoe lookalike that Aon is seen with. He is doing to flip a finger at the world.

Sean said he was at the beach playing guitar.

Then he said he was sleeping all through the night.

Sean said the cut was from a motorbike accident.

Then from a fight in a bar.

Mon said it was him in the early morning video as he was running to the beach to see what happened.

Mon has never denied that it was himself in the video.

Muang Muang said, he woke the boys up and asked for the guitar. The boys said it was at ac bar. Muang said he went to get it.

The guitar turned up at court.

Nomsod said he was in a test at 9.30, but his fake video footage shows him leaving at 10.30.

Nothing matches from these guys.

Why stop at those contrived inconsistencies?

"Muang Muang said, he woke the boys up and asked for the guitar. The boys said it was at ac bar. Muang said he went to get it."

That's funny, because the boys grown up men standing for trial at the hearing said they were too drunk to remember anything that happened that night, which also doesn't match with what the parents of Zaw said about him "He doesn't drink alcohol and has never done anything violent before."

Then the grown up adults under trial said "we are victims of influential people" and that "We think the killer went to another country already" but when asked if they knew if anyone else had done the crime or was implicated with it they said "We really dont know. We were drunk, just went back home. We know nothing"

Then they said "A police officer hit the side of his face and the interpreter also hit him four times. Then the police threatened to electrocute them" then they said they were "scalded with boiling water" (which amazingly didn't led to the second or third degree burns as boiling water would cause in normal human beings)

Last, but not least, first they said they murdered the two Britons and then they said they didn't; of course they said that confession was under duress during interrogation, but they also "told a Burmese embassy legal team they had murdered English tourists Hannah Witheridge and David Miller by bludgeoning them to death with a hoe".

In view of this inconsistencies and the physical evidence against them, perhaps you should contemplate the possibility that they may be guilty of brutally murdering two young people.

I definitely think we would all be fools not to contemplate that they could if played a part. None of of us know the truth.

I have been banging on about verification a day what seems like a cover up on behalf of the RTP.

We should all sit on the fence as much as possible. Keep an open mind and examine anything we turn up. But it is not us in the court. We don't know 10 % of the evidence. I fail to see though why verification wasn't allowed.

Hannah had been restrained quite violently in my opinion on look at the pictures. Nail marks and bruising. Quite horrific attack. However looking at the news today becoming all to commonplace around the world. Unfortunately in this case the scene has been set and unless a video or the like was found no one will know the truth. Except the people who done it.

JTJ quote: 'However my guess is they are murdering rapist scum but have no problem with them having the best defense team on the planet because it would take on vast and convincing conspiracy theory to undue just the fact both their semen was in one of the victims.'

Let's discuss this underlined. It is a statement that caused the RTP to indict because the B2 DNA matched the semen samples. It doesn't make it a fact, unless you believe the RTP would not attempt to pervert the course of justice. I'm sure the defence would attempt to discredit the RTP's chain of custody from the less than forensic collection of samples to the eventual results.

What's more, one would expect that the B2 DNA would be pretty plentiful at the site - pubic hairs, spittle, blood, fingerprints on the hoe, etc. But strangely enough there is a remarkable absence of B2's DNA anywhere else reported (especially related to David Miller) - unless of course it has mysteriously been found retrospectively by the RTP.

If the whole prosecution case rests on the semen DNA, they are acting in a way that is not transparent and fair. That there has been no independent verification is tantamount to telling enquirers to f*** off. That might be the Thai way, but it does cast doubt on the veracity of their evidence.

Indeed. No DNA on the hoe from David. Guess the Police overlooked this. This wasnt a priority, just get some DNA from Hannah from some suspects then build a story around it.

RTP supporters claim that because the DNA is a match and a confession under torture they must be guilty (Have the police turned up for the torture inquest?)

Meanwhile condoms found with Hannah's DNA on the inside but non on the outside.

3 sets of DNA, but only 2 people arrested

Hoe stated as the murder weapon of both victims but no DNA from David on it.

David and Hannah having sex or at least foreplay to get the boys aroused but none of Davids DNA on Hannah.

Witheld CCTV footage

Now i cant say for sure that these boys didnt do it but just some of the points raised above( and some ive missed) shows that this case is seriously flawed.

And dont forget to mention Hannahs DNA also on a cigarette butt. along with lipstick, not exactly fitting the story given by the RTP/prosecution.

We already know just how easy it is to have tampered with or have DNA evidence that is not trustworthy at least not in the eyes of the international community who are not conspiracy theorists but seeking justice. The UK want it independently verified, so does credible Thai media

Is this true that Hannah's DNA was also on the ciggy butt ?

If so that changes the fact the boys got horny watching them D +H making out on the sand, to the boys shared a song and a ciggy with Hannah and all were having a good time. All were a bit tipsy and we know what happens when some girls have has a few. There she was alone with 2 not bad looking Asian men. So she goes off behind a rock with them and has a bit of fun.

There's your reason why 2 sets of Asian DNA were found inside of Hannah. DNA in Hannah and on the ciggy.

As for the 3rd lot of DNA found on her, well that doesn't matter because the RTP have forgotten all about that one.

Now you just have to work out what happened to David and Hannah after the boys went home.

It is true according to the RTP forensic that her DNA was on the butt. But you can't be selective when to believe them I think.

It's also alleged that Sean McAnna was in fact on the beach playing his guitar that night/morning. It's been confirmed a day then retracted by a British expat who works at a dive school on Koh Tao. It was also reported in the press and then Sean changed his story. He changed his story about his injury being from a bike accident to being stabbed by a Thai over a room for rent.

Sean McAnna holds the key in my honest opinion. Despite his protestations not one bit of evidence has surfaced of his injury being seen prior to that night. Unlike Chris Ware who has photographic evidence. However Sean has melted away. Saving his own skin. To scared to come forward. Perhaps he could be implicated someway. Who knows.

The families, who have no other motivation that to see true justice and who have MUCH more information than moronic social media detectives that have ulterior motives, have stated:

"There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us,"

"We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes."

"From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing."

"We would like to thank the officers who travelled to Thailand to review the case and the Royal Thai Police for facilitating their visit,"

"We would like to express our relief that progress is being made in Thailand and this case is finally coming to court."

It's nice that you quoted the family of the victims. Now let's quote some from the family of the suspect.

There are two set of lives here. But rtp don't care about either. Not even the courtesy of answering the abuse allegation. Not answering just make them look even more less credible than they already are.

The fact the two defendants said they were threatened into confessing has nothing to do with their guilt or innocence. They have withdrawn their confessions. Police should answer for any abuse of the suspects but even in first world countries that are not going to answer such inquiries from a human rights group prior to the criminal trial. There is nothing illegal about the police not responding to these inquiries. The suspects and their lawyers can bring criminal charges all on their own in Thailand if they felt police committed a criminal act. However, this is not so much criminal as it is a defense strategy which to my understanding worked as their confessions have been retracted.

If you want to believe that even in first world nations police don't get rough with suspects and legally lie to them then you are not being realistic. This is just life (police) and is not uncommon and although wrong, doesn't reflect if a suspect is guilty or not. Although false confessions do take place, it is more likely some pressure (abuse), lies or threats often get guilty people to admit their involvement.

As for the police caring about the defendants or victims families, that is not their job.

As for the defendants families, you are welcome to share their feelings and thoughts ... even if they are a lot less credible than that of the victims. The victim's family's only motivation would be to see the right people convicted. They have been informed by numerous sources such as the embassy, Thai Police, UK Coroner and UK investigators. On the other hand the victim;s family are motivated to protect their children and nobody wants to believe their loved one could commit such a crime.

Can you back your claim that the UK coroner have informed the families or UK investigator's. There's been no investigation in the UK. Nothing. Zilch zero. Not a single person interviewed. The UK coroner has not concluded the inquest so they families have not been informed. In fact the Thai's hadn't even submitted their file to her. She was still waiting a few weeks ago.

You need to get your facts right instead of living in your little bubble.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/CSI-MM/949164291767048 https://www.facebook.com/pages/CSI-MM/949164291767048

quote name="IslandLover" post="9021645" timestamp="1422923707"]

loonodingle, on 03 Feb 2015 - 01:30, said:

CSI MM

Can you send me a PM with the link?

CSI MM

David's DNA wasn't found on Hannah (I typed that out slowly to help you understand it)

Is this the info the RTP have given you or did you see all the reports in the case? Just trying to figure out if this is just another bit of selective trust in terms of the RTP investigation.

Have you considered perhaps David was having a Skinny dip hence naked, the killers attacked Hannah and he come out of the sea to defend her.

Bery you can type as slow as you like M8 it will not make a blind bit of difference.

As for JTJ, he has seen no more than you but he is damn sure the correct 2 guys are in the jail.

Has anyone found out who the bearded guy is?

So you think it was the friend with the not-blood on his pants? That was the first prime suspect. Or do you believe it was Myranmar workers as that is also what was first said and turned out to be. The ONLY reason they suspected the kid who was at school in Bangkok is because they incorrectly believed he fled the morning of the murders.

There were some mentions of possible suspects during the initial hours/days after the crime, but all but Nomsod and Mon were quickly eliminated, which was right. So, Nomsod and Mon were prime suspects early on, and they should still be prime suspects. His dad corroborated that his son left that morning. There is other evidence, but those who don't want to see it, won't see it.

But of course I suspect you believe there has been a vast conspiracy to related to his DNA not being at the scene and others DNA and semen being there and that his apartment complex conspired to doctor the video of him coming and going at time which would make it impossible for him to commit the murders and that the university has conspired to doctor records showing his taking a test at this time and so on and so on... Bery Baby - no motive, no logic, no dna and no evidence at all to suggest he is involved BUT whole bunch to show he was not. I guess with your logic this somehow makes him a prime suspect.

It's already been shown, in over a dozen posts, how easy it would be for just one or a few people to skew the DNA trail. Once that was done, everyone (including Thai officials, Thai foot soldiers, Brit experts, victims' families, the judge) has to fall in line to believe it. If I went and chopped down a tree, everyone would have to agree the tree was chopped down. It would not need 50,000 people chopping it down to agree it was down. In other words, substituting the B's DNA for the actual DNA found in/on Hannah would establish it as fact - from the top down. The ONLY way we're going to know the DNA typing found in/on Hannah is for Brit (or some other reputable outside lab) to do it. RTP have zero credibility. That's probably the main reason many of us are pissed off at the Brit Coroner's Office, ....because they're not doing their jobs.

No she was not due to release here findings on 6th January. Show me where that was said. How could she do that when there was no inquest? No jury was empaneled. No witnesses gave evidence. I said ahead of that date that the case would be adjourned and so it proved to be the case.

That date was just "for mention". Yes she has done her job.

I tell you what it will be adjourned again in October.

You're jumping through semantic hoops trying to make excuses for the British Coroner not doing her job. If it quacks, shits and walks like a duck, .......it must be a duck.

you boomer bung rung are getting on my wick. I am going to send you a private message. It will include the corners rules and duties. It will also include the direct contact details so u can confirm what we have told you a dozen times. You do not have a clue do you.

Once more, the father didn't say he left the island on the morning of the murders.

In any case it's a fun insight into the non-working logic of a conspiracy theorist: the father who has spent millions upon millions, pushed levers at all levels of government and silenced all witnesses to remove any and all suspicions from his son, then just goes out and blurts "yeah, he left the island immediately after the murders".

Welcome back AleG. It's good to have your input, because it indicates what officialdom is most spooked about. Maybe Nomsod's father did spend lots of money to protect his son. Are you saying you think he did? It's a common reaction, when the son of a rich and/or connected Thai power broker gets implicated in a crime.... Look no further than the Chalerm family or the Red Bull big shot, to name a tiny %.

The Headman mentioned his son left to return to Bangkok, on the first day of the investigation. Immediately afterward, it was evident he shouldn't have said that, so he rescinded it. It was only in the hours/days/weeks/months afterwards, that the maelstrom of other factoids showed their fuzzy heads. Nice try, AleG, but you're wrong again.

you could perhaps suggest his father was told his son had gone back and not what happened or the implications of telling everybody. It was only when he was put in the frame they all hit panic stations and we'll well know the rest.

Actually the UK coroner had had no report from the Thailand authorities. She was still waiting. She is also incidental to the case. It's not a criminal trial it's an inquest. She doesn't decide who committed the crime.