Bosse137

As usual,I forgot something I wanted to add.Tothemark:I made the calculation on MY 21 latest days,and it came up with 1.31 kg/ tree.That number,to be clear,is the number sold and got paid for.(Cup lump).Medium price: 75.29 Baht. Again,compare to mats...I am aware,that different trees in different areas can have a different output.But I never made so much money before even taking in consideration ,that prices have gone up.

Hallo all! I have a preliminary report. First,my machines have not been in work for some time and I am ashamed to say,that i have neglected to take care of them.But based on earlier results over the years,the weight of the mats was 1.0-1.3 kg,so I use that as a norm.We used 4 kg latex,when we produced the mats before.(Am fixing the machines now and will do a more thorough test soon.)Now to the test I have done:I took 4 kg of latex,fresh from the trees and put it back in 8 cups,which stayed on the trees as usual.After the usual time,when it was time to sell,I collected it,put it in a sack (as usual) and next day, when I normally would have sold it,I checked the weight again:2.75 kg. That day,the price was 77 Baht/kg,which means,that I would have recieved 211.75 Baht.Compare to what I would have had got for mats with a price of 142 Baht/kg x1,3kg is 184 Baht..Now,there is a margin for error,but to me the verdict is clear;no reason to put on a lot of extra costs and work! As everybodu knows,a good test must be one,that anybody can do,so for those who think I not tell the truth;go ahead and check youself!! It must also be added,that perhaps there are local variations when it comes to how the price is set;I am talking of how it is here,where I sell my stuff.It should also be said,that there can be other reasons for making mats instead of cup lump,one being expectations of rising price.To James and all,you do not have to agree on this and I have no time to prolong this discussion,but I promised to let you know what I would find out.So,everyone to his own,good luck all!

Sonny! My trees are 50 km from Chumpae,Isaan,where I also live.Yes, I agree,that IS impressive! But he is a young man with good skills,unlike me,myself. I am 68 years old and it is 50 years since I had a physical kind of work,so for me to do the same work,it takes 7-8 hours....Although I love it !Lately I have had to slow down because of some healthissues and I miss it very much..If you not yet have done so,try it yourself,if you are healthy enough to work. Good luck!!

Sorry,I meant to go on and say,that if it were me,I would have two employes,who worked together to cut all the 1400 trees for two days in a row,and then paus on the third day.As I have said before,it is not a hard work,although skill is needed,and it is cool and nice in the night,compared to daytime work.But for some strange reason,people have been used to demand very high payment,compared to the payment for other kinds of work...

Sonny,I have ONE employe,who taps 800 plus trees in THREE hours...Regarding lump,mats and so on,I do not want to´comment on that for the moment;not ready to pick up that discussion again.(check earlier posts...)

Are these eggs to be sold by the kilogram?

My egg to military ratio is based on units, per internationally failed analogy standards.

All this talk about egg makes me hungry! I will go and crush some now in order to make me an omelett.

Quite simple for Pheu Thai if they want to govern. Govern to the constitution with democratic intent, and leave Thaksin in exile...or in a thai prison doing his two years plus additional charges...his choice. Do that and the good general will not bother the democratic process.

They cannot do this because Thaksin is part of a Global master plan to destabilise world governments (Egypt, Tunsia, Libya, Syria, Yemen) and what is happening in Thailand parallels actions in these other countries. We are living in dangerous times as those with power in the world only have to manipulate the masses not only to gain power but to have total control. Thailand is just one of the staging posts. If we were to be more graphic about these world events - I would say we are living in the middle of (at the start of perhaps) World War III. Thaksin and his cohortsare very dangerous men. They stop at nothing including shooting their own pepole with black clad snipers and manipulating the media to make it appear that legitimate goverments are behind these murders. Even events on the Cambodia border are linked to this massive attempt at destabilising Thailand. When people tell me that Farangs should not be involved I say, I live in this world and I do not want to live in a world controlled by these evil men.

ianf,I think you are a very brave man,who dares to go up against this organisation,which ,according to your knowledge and,I guess,trustworthy intelligence,has a "global masterplan" and "stops at nothing" ,including murder,to see it through!Are you not afraid,when you say,that you "do not want to live in a world controlled by these evil men",somebody will take that literally.I mean,being evil as they are,like trying to take down dictators in the countrys you mentioned and so on...?I wish you all the best in your struggle...

When I saw the headline of the OP,I new this would become a source of great fun!Don`t chicken out,go on!

Bosse, go take that coffee and come back in two weeks

We now know the figures that you (not me) are working to- you are saying that wet cup lump weighs 2 to 1 over sheets, from the latex produced by the tree. Im happy to wait 2 weeks for you to dry the lump to restart this part of the thread. I cant dry any cup because we do mats, so its all down to you now....

And as for you Clive,you have a lot to answer for

Good idea try it out by drying some cup. Think Bosse you have this water content thing way out of wack. When they make rubber cloves condoms etc they take the liquid latex and spin out the water until it is 60 % rubber, it;s still a liquid nor a solid. You on the other hand seem to think your cup rubber is 50% water, if thet were the case you would be using buckets not bags to carru it. Jim

For your info,for instance banana is 74% water,orange 87 %. You,youself,James,is roughly 60 % water.Could be more after a night at the local pub..I do not think you have to navigate around in a bucket,do you?!

Finally is the old mysteri solved!!! The military has been around long before Thaksin,which means,that the egg came first!

OK,James,I give it one more try: If they take away 10 Baht,then I get my 75 Baht,as I said.75x200 is15000. Or if you instead say,that they take away 20 kilo and give 85 Baht,that adds up to 85x180 is 15300.....Let us now say,that you mean that they do both things,take away 10 Baht AND 20 kilo,that would give 13500 Baht.Even so,you have the cost for labour,whether you do it yourself or hire sombody.And machines,maintainens,keeping it dry,and so on...The endresult,whether you get 1500 more or not,will be eaten up in the other end.Another thing,that has to be taken into consideration,is that you all the time argue with yourself,shall I sell now or wait for the price to go up? And perhaps it goes down,as it did a couple of months ago,when it was reported on TV about long ques to panic sell sheets.And by the way,the price for cup lump has always been more than half the price for sheets,at least in my district,so there is a margin.And nobody takes away anything after the auktion.But of course,the buyer has already calculated in this,thats why you get only (little more than) half the price.

I have to cut my break short,because perhaps I can give the answer.When I before said that we are paid for water,that would not be exactly correct when you analyse it closer.It is like this and I take an example:Let say you sell 100 kg mats/150 Baht /kg. That amounts to 15000 Baht.Now,if you had sold it as cup lump,you would have 200 kg instead because of the watercontent.The middlemen knows this,of course.That is why they give you only half the price,75 Baht. OK 75 Baht,200kg amounts to 15000 Baht.Ergo,you have the same outcome but with less work! To refer to James,you get paid for the rubber,which is the same in both cases.I have to admit,that I all the time said,that we are paid for the water.This is how I meant it,and the confusion is all my fault! Naturally,the middlemen can not know the exact amount of water,since no tests are ever done,so one has to presume,that sometimes they pay too much,and sometime too little,but that will probably level out in the long run.

Why make everything so complex. Bosse get your last sales docket and tell us how much they paid. Last weeks Government buying price in Buntharik was 85 Baht a kilo dry weight. Now Bosse if you sell your wet rubber and they give you 85 Baht a kilo then they are buying water, if you get less they are not. It makes no difference how the buyer plays the numbers and makes you and others believe he is an idiot buying water, if you didn;t get 85 Baht a kilo he deducting water content. So please tell us how much you were paid.

Tothmark agian getting all technical and confusing. You can make sheet as soon as your trees produce enough usable latex to warrent the expense. When making sheet you add 2 litres of water to 3 letres of latex, so water content makes no difference. In my case 8 weeks after opening new trees they produce usable latex. A Thai planter who has never taken care of his trees may have to wait much longer before he gets enough latex to warrent making sheet.

Have a look at my youtube vid Sarah Jane rubber factory Issan or family run rubber factory Buntharik, it may be easier to understand when you can see the process. Jim PS Bosse the reason I sell cup rubber is that I buy rubber and resell.

Well,I was planning to take a 2-3 weeks "paus" in this discussion,awaiting the result of my little experiment,but I will be polite and reply to you,James.It is not that simple,James.Why? Because you do not know,how many more kilos I have,and get paid for,when I sell my wet cup lump!If,for instance,I have 40 % more kilos when I sell it wet,than when I sell it dry,I think you must agree,that even if I get,let say,5-10 Baht less/kilo,I still get much more for my wet cup lump.But as I said to tothemark,if I am mistaken,and perhaps I am,I will be happy to change to making mats,if there is a significant difference in price.If it is just a marginal difference,It is no good idea to pay somebody to do this work,or to loose valuable time this late in my life,doing it my self.A bit beside the point,I know.I live not so far from Chumpae,so it is a bit to go to see you,as you invited me to do in an earlier post.But I like to go on tours with my bicycle,so perhaps I surprise you with a visit..! The same goes for tothemark,if you do not live too far away from here.OK,now I take the paus,let you hear from me,when I have something to tell,bye!

Hi tothemark!! Thanks for taking time to explain your stans! It sounds all very convincing,except that "you are only paid for the rubber,not the water" as said before.Now you admit,that in some cases,you can be paid for the water..Let us end this discussion before we bore our selves and all others to death..I will do lika this: I will collect latex from the latest cut,keep it in a container.Then I will divide it in two equal parts(this way you have exactly the same "quality" of liquid).TThereafter,you guessed it,I will make mats of one part and the other I will put back in the cups,and after 4-5 days collect it,put it in a sack over night,take it out the next day and check the weight.As we do,when we sell.I note the weight,wait till the mats are dry,and check their weight.Finally,I just check the respective price and do the math.Now,I discribed in detail,in the hope that somebody else also will do the experiment,perhaps you..? I am not a stubborn person,and if it turns out,that I am wrong,I am nothing but glad,that I found out how to make more money.If I care..So,never mind about getting more ram for your brain,I am sure you have more than enough( the real content,not water,he,he) Just sit back,enjoy a cup of expresso and await the outcome!

Hi again! Perhaps I shouldn`t prelong this debate,but there is still one thing that needs clearing up.You all seem to agreed amongst you,that "rubber is rubber" and "what you get paid for is the rubber,not the water" and " it is the process of doing mats,that adds to the value".So,then,why are you also saying,that inthe first 2-3 years,when the watercontent is higher than in later years,you will do cup lump??!! Really,why? Do you,in spite of everything,think,that you will be paid for the water....? If not,why is it motivated to not "add value" by making mats.? To me the logic is,that if making mats is the way to get most profit,well,then it has nothing to do with whether the watercontent is higher or lower,"rubber is rubber,thats what you get paid for",remember! Is the answer,perhaps,that in some cases the smart buyers are not smart,(when it is about liquid from young trees),and actually pay for water.Actually,I do not care one way or another,but it disturbes me,when some professionals give lectures,which seemingly,at least,not add up!

Bosse, that's an easy question.

In the early years of a rubber tree the latex is more susceptible to absorbing moisture due to its lower DRC, therefore the younger rubber latex has a higher moisture figure than more developed rubber. As the rubber tree gets older, the DRC (dry rubber content) in the latex increases, effectively reducing the ability of the latex to absorb moisture.Meaning kilo for kilo, the more that comes out of the older tree the more you end up keeping/selling.

DRC (rubber) does not absorb water.....

Guess you missunderstod my qestion.I know about that the latex from younger trees absorb s more moisture.My question was,why do you not make mats,since you all claim,that you can not sell water.If you can only sell the rubber,then there is no reason to not to make mats,regardless of how much (or little) water the latex holds in the beginning of the process,right.My conclusion is,that you actually think,that you will,at least partly,be paid also for the water.I remember James mentioning in a post,that he sold cup rubber to a passer bye agent,something, in the light of his later posts, surprises me,since he so warmly advocates making mats...

Hi again! Perhaps I shouldn`t prelong this debate,but there is still one thing that needs clearing up.You all seem to agreed amongst you,that "rubber is rubber" and "what you get paid for is the rubber,not the water" and " it is the process of doing mats,that adds to the value".So,then,why are you also saying,that inthe first 2-3 years,when the watercontent is higher than in later years,you will do cup lump??!! Really,why? Do you,in spite of everything,think,that you will be paid for the water....? If not,why is it motivated to not "add value" by making mats.? To me the logic is,that if making mats is the way to get most profit,well,then it has nothing to do with whether the watercontent is higher or lower,"rubber is rubber,thats what you get paid for",remember! Is the answer,perhaps,that in some cases the smart buyers are not smart,(when it is about liquid from young trees),and actually pay for water.Actually,I do not care one way or another,but it disturbes me,when some professionals give lectures,which seemingly,at least,not add up!

tothemark,I you trying to tell me,that after that week,when I kept the cup lump and lost 10%,there were NO MORE WATER left?! When you sell mats,after they been mangled,hanged out in the sun for drying etc,there is almost only pure rubber left. Do not compare that to the content of water in cup lump.I am sure,if I let the lump through a similar process;squising it,mangle it and let it out in the sun to get absolutely dry,I would shrink the weight with at least 50% and that is what we are talking about here.Mmmm.,,incidentally,I smell coffe,my wife just brought me a big cup! Sorry that I can`t share it with you,perhaps sometime in the future,if our ways cross.

Ha Bosse, Can I have an expresso then - no sugar

Perhaps you would like to do a test, it will only cost you 80 bht..... Keep one of your cup lumps back from the next market run, weigh it when wet. Keep it in the sun and dry store for two weeks till its completely dry then weigh it again for me. ...... What you think to that proposal ?

I`ll have the expresso in mind,if we ever meet! Actually,what you propose,I have already planned to do!Funny,that! If,to my surprise,it turns out that I am wrong,and if there is a significant difference in favour of making mats,then I will have to consider switching to doing that.And if the cost of paying somebody for it does not eat it up the percieved profit.But that,of course,is a bit beside the point,just wanted to point to one of the obstacles...

tothemark,I you trying to tell me,that after that week,when I kept the cup lump and lost 10%,there were NO MORE WATER left?! When you sell mats,after they been mangled,hanged out in the sun for drying etc,there is almost only pure rubber left. Do not compare that to the content of water in cup lump.I am sure,if I let the lump through a similar process;squising it,mangle it and let it out in the sun to get absolutely dry,I would shrink the weight with at least 50% and that is what we are talking about here.Mmmm.,,incidentally,I smell coffe,my wife just brought me a big cup! Sorry that I can`t share it with you,perhaps sometime in the future,if our ways cross.

In a final attempt to make it all clear,as James loves to say,and before my hair gets even greyer,I will add this: NOBODY here believes,that you can add rubber to what you collected from the cup.I agree,that sometimes the logic/understanding on the part of Thais,can make you surprised,to put it politely.But in this case,everybody is totally clear over,that what you do,is trying to retain as much WATER as possible,since,as I said many times already,you actually get paid for it, It is wrong,crazy,whatever you want to call it,but,friends,it IS a fact !!!

tothemark,just read my answer to James.Believe me,here they DO BUY WATER !!And I do understand about the part that rubber is rubber,that you cant add or take away to/from it.And,if as you say,they take away a lot for the water and calculate how many kilos "real" rubber there is,then of course it would be as the two of you says,I get that.But the thing is,and I do not know why,here they DO NOT do like that! If I were the buyer,I would of course do,but try to believe me,they do not.For reasons unknown to me.And may I add;I am very happy about it!! So let us conclude this discussion with,that what each one of us says is correct IN HIS DISTRICT.

Well,James,there is one flaw in your reasoning.If what you says about people buying rubber,and only rubber,were correct,then I would agree with you 100%.But the actual fact is,that they buy rubber as well as water!You can see,how a lot of water flows from the lorry,that has the cup lump loaded on it.And note,that is AFTER they bought it and paid full price on the kilos you had in your sack....Once,I happened to miss the sellingdate and had to keep it for one more week at home.What happened was,that it lost 10% more water.Which proves,that had I sold it at the normal time,I would have been paid for these 10% water as well.Sorry,I do not making this up,it happens like this every week.For me it is more of a hobby,but it does not prevent me to believe what my eyes see.

Hi tothemark!Guess you seen my reply to James.Of course,in my example,to be fair,I loose some weight already in the cups,depending on how "clean" the latex is.So let us say,that in reality I loose up to a total of 50 %,it still leaves me with the doubble amount of kg to sell,to a price,that is more than doubble the price of matts.(if I loose that much,I would also loose a lot,making the matts from the same harvest)And by the way,if I wanted to make mats,I would have to pay someone to do it,unless I do it my self,which also comes at a price in a way.Plus the work to take care of it till it is ready to be sold.But perhaps different districts have different ways to deal with these things,here we never talk about reducing anything from our (really)wet cup lump.

Hi all

Lets see if we can sort out this confusion on liquid, cup,sun dried and RSS.

Now when I say this is how it is done, I mean this is how we buy rubber and I am no different than the private or government buyers.

Farmer Joe rocks up with 100 kilos of RSS [grade 1,2 or 3 ] that days price is 150 Baht a kilo. He gets 15000 Baht.

Next farmer comes with 100 kilos of sun dried. Now sun dried will have a water content. So if we say todays price for sun dried is 145 Baht a kilo, the farmer would get 14500 Baht, but the water content will be deducted. For esay of maths we will say that the sun dried rubber has a 10% water content, Meaning that the Dry Rubber Content is really only 90 kilos. So he gets 90 times 145 Baht or 13050 Baht.

Our next seller arrives with 100 kilos of dry cup rubber. For the sake of arguement it has no water content, which will never happen. Todays cup rubber price is 80 Baht a kilo. Farmer gets 80 Baht times 100 or 8000 baht.

In comes the wet cup rubber man with 100 kilos of wet rubber. This rubber is deemed to contain 20 % water, so his DRC is 80 kilos. Ergo 80 kilos times 80 Baht being 6400 Baht.

Our last seller for the day arrives with barrals of liquid latex. We test the liquid for rubber content and low and behold he has 100 kilos of rubber in the liquid. We will pay him at least 20 Baht more per kilo than the dry cup price. On this day that means 100 Baht a kilo or 10000 Baht;

Now that really is it in a nut shell. Jim

Please James,it is not that simple!! Of course,if you say,that everyone comes with 100 kg,your maths are correct,mainly.But you can not start with the final product,you must start with what the farmer brings home from the trees!!! If he brings home 100 kg and make matts,he will have apr.1-1.2 kg matt from every 4kg latex,that amounts to between 20 to 25 kg to sell,x 150 Baht,3000-3750 total.If he sell it as cup lump,he will have about 80 kgx80 Baht,6400Baht!! At least in my village...I actually put the collected rubber in sacks and sell it the day after.Over night it looses about 20 % in weight,which leaves me with 80 kg,for which I am paid,last time,75.90 baht.The price of matts that day,I do not know,but I am sure,it did not reach 150 Baht,as in our example.So,the facts remains,in my district I get more money for less work.If you do not believe it,come and see for your self!!

Oh,I forgot to mention;since it seems that most of you guys pay people to do the work,lazy or not lazy doesn`t come into it.Especially when people demand to get the same percentage as they did before,you can demand,that they also do the same work as before,that is,making matts!! It will be easier today anyway,since we now have a machine which take care of the part of the work,where people before must use their feet and mangle the rubber in order to fit intothe first machine...

WHY?

For the added extra work and equipment needed, whyare farmers making cup rubber when they could double their income by making sheets?

Clive

I can understand your disbelief Clive, been there myself in the early stages, but then common sense doesnt always necessarily prevail, no matter what country your in. Its a simple case of cash flow and investment. They havent got the seed money to pay for the equipment needed for matts, they need a pay packet at least weekly and cannot wait till the end of the month and lastly education -lack of it - to quickly understand the difference in returns. Jim refers to it as reluctance to change, which basically sums it up. It seems though that they are not alone :

The answer to why farmers go on with cup-rubber for about half the price is,that making sheets takes away appr.half the weight,which means,the finalrevenu will be the same,but making sheets takes a lot of more work plus the problem with storing them.

Im sorry but this is a common locals misconception and im surprised that you agree with this village talk. There is a loss of "liquid" when producing matts from juice, BUT it is NOT 50%. Just ask Jim, why do you think he is buying liquid latex to make into matts for goodness sake ! You should work on between 10-20% loss of content over the preparation stage, the loss is more significant the younger the tree.Latex is measured by its DRC (dry rubber content) hence the older the tree the greater the DRC, better returns and lower "liquid" loss when converting into matts.

Anyone who isnt doing matts that can afford the investment, the time and "wait" for the money is losing the potential of making significantly more money by just doing cup rubber.

On Friday we obtained 140bht per kilo for matts (non smoked) whilst cup rubber (dry) was 85bht a kilo.

Cup rubber does not fetch the same price as sheet, dry cup is roughly half the price of dry sheet. Thais do cup because it is easy, less work and no need for machines and smokers, A Thai farmer can tap his trees go back to sleep, tend his rice orwhat ever and leave the rubber in the cup. Jim

Thanks for confirming that Jim, it felt like i was in the corner on my own !

Well,thanks for your input.I have personally worked with this for years,and my experience,not "village talk" has shown me,that you get about the same return,wether you make matts or cup lump,due to the weight difference.Obviously,almost all others have made the same observation,cause almost nobody make matts.First;people do not find it difficult to change habbits.Proof:they changed it from making matts to cup lump!! And they do have the equipment already! About can`t afford to wait;if you saw how much money they make every month,you would understand,that they certainly can afford to wait.As they did before,when we could wait for months for the price to rise!!And as some still do,in the hope of rising prices.Although they loose weight in the wait,keeping the matts warm to avoid mögel.And I can assure you,nobody`s lazy!!Why James want to buy latex to make matts,I do not know. Guess,that if he pays a rather low price for the latex,then he can make a good profit.But obviously,people are not that lazy,to make it easier for them selves but for a lower income...Did you ever thought of that.?Anyway,to make sure I am not wrong,perhaps I will dust of the old equipment and check again.If so,i am not too proud to admit it.