reasonstobecheerful Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 Hi there I'm in Chiangmai and have thought about kickstarting a campaign that might help clean the air, which is simply appalling up here. I cannot do anything about farm burning, but that is only seasonal. Doing something about dirty diesel exhaust is another matter. I have very good friendly connections to do this, including a respected Thai campaigner with connections to schools, the editor of the most influential middle class newspaper here, and an educated and going places upper ranking police officer who may be able to help us and help himself. My intention may be to use masses of schoolchildren in a double edged "Why are you killing us?" when "You could be saving money" campaign. IS IT POSSIBLE? Here are my thoughts: I reckon a high percentage of the smoky trucks and pickups are not like that because the engines are worn out as such, but more because of possible dirty air filters or unmaintained injector mechanisms. A mainstay of the campaign would be that the two problem factors above are not prohibitively expensive to fix, and may therefore be reasonable to enforce more strongly. So what I need is background: How much would an average fuel injection overhaul cost here? How many hours work is it? How does the economic side work out? How much fuel could be saved....is there any chance this could partially or completely offset mechanical work? I know about the sensors they stick up the exhaust pipe to measure CO, but how do these apply to diesels, given that incomplete combustion occurs mostly under load.....in other words, how could a checkpoint work? Thanx for any input at all it will be most welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 There is a diesel retrofit program here in the US that is funded through the US EPA. You might want to check with the governmental environmental agency there. I can not give you the cost on retrofits but the program is pretty popular with large cities who want to retrofit city trucks and buses. It is also popular with school districts for retrofitting school buses. I want to say that an average retrofit can cost a few thousand US dollars (at least here). The retrofit is rather easy, but since only a few companies sell the parts to complete the retrofit, they can charge high rates. For some ideas, take a look at the US EPA's website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John 1 Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 Cost to overhaul injector pump and injectors on a pick up approx 3,500bt and takes about 4 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfish Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 A clean air filter will solve 90% of the problem, the other 10% will be solved with re-calibration of the injectors. The injector pump can and should be left alone. In a very few cases it may need the mixture or timing adjusting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billd766 Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 (edited) Cost to overhaul injector pump and injectors on a pick up approx 3,500bt and takes about 4 hours. The average monthly salary aound here in the central region is about 3,000 baht a month as a comparison. Edited January 6, 2007 by billd766 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reasonstobecheerful Posted January 6, 2007 Author Share Posted January 6, 2007 (edited) Thankyou all for your replies......any more input very welcome then I'll start asking more detail in return soon when it's not one in the morning....I'm particularly interested that air filters might be the main problem as that had been my original premise and if correct it would mean cheapness.....anyway bedways is bestways.......thanx again. Edited January 6, 2007 by reasonstobecheerful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 Does anyone know the sulfur content of diesel fuel in Thailand or SE Asia in general? Is it similar to European and now US diesel fuel with regards to sulfur content? The retrofits they do here has nothing to do with the fuel injectors. It's a replacement of the exhaust line with a "catalytic converter" and/or other filtration technology. This reduces CO, hydrocarbons and PM. Diesel Oxidation Catalyst (DOC) will reduce (approximate) CO by 40%, hydrocarbons by 70% and PM by 40%. Cost is around $1000 to $1600 US. Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF) will reduce (approximate again) CO by 75%, hydrocarbons by 85% and PM by 90%. Cost is between $5000 and $7000 US. These numbers are dependent on the vehicle running ultra low sulfur fuel. I don't think the general person would be able or willing to pay these prices, but if the government mandated city vehicles and buses to be retrofit, that might be something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reasonstobecheerful Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 (edited) Thankyou all again Goldfish you seem to know your stuff....... Could you possibly elaborate on your advice about the air filters being 90% of the problem. If it is true it would be a godsend as a quick and cheap fix. I had thought the same at first and it would certainly apply to a carburettor engine but then it occurred to me maybe when you are using injection the blocked filter might not be causing the same "sucking" action on the fuel jet, although perhaps it's letting a little less air in to burn. And how would this tie in with incomplete combustion under load?? Another thing is you talk about recalibrating the injectors and not touching the pump. Could you elaborate here also please? And would that be a quickish job or not? Cheers.....ReasonstobeCheerful (ps thankyou for your efforts Jamie but this is Thailand.....everything has to be very simple and most of all CHEAP otherwise it is dead at the getgo.....there is just a chance that it can be done cheaply and that is what I am attempting to discover..........but the money you are talking about is an awful lot here) Edited January 7, 2007 by reasonstobecheerful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Good luck Reason... I understand this is the US and not Thailand, but reducing diesel emissions is not a simple thing, here or there. I agree that changing an air cleaner can cut down on some pollutants by giving the engine a proper fuel-air mixture, but I dont think that it causes 90% of the pollutants. If the vehicle is old, it's going to produce more pollutants regarless of whether you change the air filter or not. It's the nature of older diesel motors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnrang Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 If the country had enough money they could regulate diesel engines like Japan and tax heavily after a few years of use. The real problem is the cops who accept money from polluting vehicles when they could arrest them. Karma is a bitch though, soon enough they develop lung diseases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfish Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Thankyou all againGoldfish you seem to know your stuff....... Could you possibly elaborate on your advice about the air filters being 90% of the problem. If it is true it would be a godsend as a quick and cheap fix. I had thought the same at first and it would certainly apply to a carburettor engine but then it occurred to me maybe when you are using injection the blocked filter might not be causing the same "sucking" action on the fuel jet, although perhaps it's letting a little less air in to burn. And how would this tie in with incomplete combustion under load?? Another thing is you talk about recalibrating the injectors and not touching the pump. Could you elaborate here also please? And would that be a quickish job or not? Cheers.....ReasonstobeCheerful (ps thankyou for your efforts Jamie but this is Thailand.....everything has to be very simple and most of all CHEAP otherwise it is dead at the getgo.....there is just a chance that it can be done cheaply and that is what I am attempting to discover..........but the money you are talking about is an awful lot here) Sorry for the delay in replying, had hoped someone with more knowledge than myself may answer. It seems fairly common knowledge that vehicles in thailand are not cared for as well as they should be. Diesel engines are very sensitive to dirty air filters. Find one kicking out lots of black smoke and remove the filter and you will see the difference. The re-calibration of the injectors requires specialist equipment to adjust the spray of diesel. This is done off the vehicle on a testbench. Replacing the diesel filter which is in line before the injector pump will help but leave the injector pump alone. These work under very close tolerences, a speck of dirt will cause harm. Specialists who work on the pumps have clean working services, tools, clothes and latex gloves as well as spotless workshops. If the injection timing is retarded you will have white/blue smoke exiting the exhaust, black if it is advanced. As you know, blue smoke from the exhaust could also be caused by burning oil. The timing and mixture is set at the factory and shouldn't really need touching, thats why I suggest just sorting the air filter and injectors. Hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilko Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 It's easy to complain about diesels because you can see some of the pollution...however the main problem inThailand is gas/petrol engines....most of the time you can't see the toxic stuff these are pumping out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reasonstobecheerful Posted January 9, 2007 Author Share Posted January 9, 2007 It's easy to complain about diesels because you can see some of the pollution...however the main problem inThailand is gas/petrol engines....most of the time you can't see the toxic stuff these are pumping out. Care to expand Wilko? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texpatriate Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 I'm in Chiangmai and have thought about kickstarting a campaign that might help clean the air, If you are serious about this you should try and find some locals that are interested in your cause. That way you won't come across as just another farang telling Thai people how to live. Just a suggestion.... -texpatriate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilko Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Are you seriously unaware of the pollution caused by gas engines???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reasonstobecheerful Posted January 10, 2007 Author Share Posted January 10, 2007 I'm in Chiangmai and have thought about kickstarting a campaign that might help clean the air, If you are serious about this you should try and find some locals that are interested in your cause. That way you won't come across as just another farang telling Thai people how to live. Just a suggestion.... -texpatriate Check Post 1 paragraph 2....even I may know more about engines than the Thais I have mentioned and I merely intend to be e source of possibly useful information and ideas. Are you seriously unaware of the pollution caused by gas engines???? I am here to be educated....I see particulate matter being chugged out of diesel engines that is black therefore running rich and therefore may be able to be fixed fairly easily, and I hear bad things about diesel pollution. If the same applies to petrol engines please tell me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivinLOS Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Petrol (and even far worse 2 stroke) engines put out far more carcinogens and harmful matter.. While carbon and soot look unpleasant they really are the least of the nasties.. Its long been said that diesel while looking dirtier is far less damaging / harmful / healthwise !!! If your intending to spearhead a campaign may need to really dig into the subject a bit.. It really depends on if your talking particulate emissions (carbon soot diesel) or highly toxic emissions.. LPG is a far cleaner fuel IIRC.. Easy to convert vehicles and cheap to run due to lower taxes.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkangorito Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 In a previous post in another topic, I said this, "Diesel engines are more efficient & less polluting (dangerous gases only) than petrol engines. I tried gassing a nuisance rabbit once with my diesel Landcruiser. All I ended up with was a hot & sweaty rabbit after 15 minutes of diesel fumes. If I had used a petrol engine, it would have been dead in minutes." Also, as another poster pointed out, diesel engines only blow smoke if there is a problem or if they are under initial acceleration. In most cases, smoke is caused by reduced air intake (dirty aircleaner) or worn injector nozzles. In the case of the latter, the nozzles (not the injectors) are replaced & adjusted. It is never good practice to adjust existing nozzles. With common rail technology, the cost of nozzles &/or injectors could be quite expensive as the injectors have intrinsic control (ie piezoelectric) to allow for more than 1 fuel injection per stroke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texpatriate Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Seems like you're off to a good start. Best of luck with your campaign! -texpat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkangorito Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Some of this was discussed here in another topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilko Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Sorry I thought it was a troll but you really didn't know.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reasonstobecheerful Posted January 10, 2007 Author Share Posted January 10, 2007 Thankyou all I have learnt from your posts. I have learnt in particular: 1. Diesel improvement through enforcement might be do-ably priced. 2. I need to look at petrol engines a bit deeper. I might add I certainly shan't be spearheading a campaign, but hope to provide ideas to influential Thais who are intelligent, receptive, and like minded. Whether they use them is up to them. Any more detail on the time/parts or cost of injector nozzle overhaul appreciated thankyou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 LivinLOS, Actually diesel exhaust is a known carcinogen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracker Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 There are some websites advertising water splitters and seem to work extreemly well on diesel engines. They input this close to where air-inlet enters engine. The pollution gets less by simple replacing some of the used diesel by H and O.... google it... You might be able to make money out of it! T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilko Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Actually diesel exhaust is a known carcinogen. Certain substances in diesel are carcinogenic as they are in many things, basically if you burn diesel you get carbon and water....it's the rest that poses problems and the nature of particulates.....in the exhaust. However if you look at ultra-refined fuels you will see that they too possess carcinogenic properties, so there is little point in singling out diesel. Diesel is cheaper to produce than gas and has less overall impact on the environment in both its production and use. All use of fossil fuels has its problems but it is a matter of getting them in proportion. As I said earlier, just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean it isn’t harmful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK49 Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 Cost to overhaul injector pump and injectors on a pick up approx 3,500bt and takes about 4 hours. G-Day John I would appreciate the name & address of the shop that does this, as I've bought a 2nd hand 2.5 ltr ford ranger and I reckon it needs a good service in that area regards Mark [email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badbanker Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 The majority of diesel vehicles in Thailand are not serviced according to manufacturers recommendations and so use excess fuel and blow excess smoke! The problem comes from several areas. Abuse and Modification! I will start with the simplest to the most complex: Abuse Changing air filters is not done on time and ones under spec are always installed allowing dust particles to abrade the piston rings causing them to wear out prematurely. Fuel filters are left on till the vehicle will no longer run due to being totally blocked with sediment. Sediment goes through the fuel filter and is then passed through the injector pump to the injectors destroying the high tolerances of both in the process. Modification All drivers want their trucks to have more power and instead of ensuring the correct maintainence is done, get their mechanics tomodify the injector pumps to inject more fuel than is normally allowed by the manufacturer. This gives more power and of course excess smoke! Fixing the problem! In Bangkok where I am based there are several very good diesel shops with very expensive Japanese and German calibration machines, that for not a lot of money will take your injector pump and injectors back to normal manufacturers specifications. I have bought several used diesel vehicles in the past 25 years of my being in Bangkok and every one had the same problems! A little TLC and they are back to normal vehicles on most occassions. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VocalNeal Posted September 6, 2010 Share Posted September 6, 2010 Wait until rice husk burning season and then all the diesel smoke will disappear. Surely there must be some other hobbies up in CMW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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