EU's Barnier worried by UK's post-Brexit plan for Irish border

[webfact]

EU's Barnier worried by UK's post-Brexit plan for Irish border

By Francesco Guarascio

 

European Union's chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier addresses a news conference in Brussels, Belgium September 7, 2017. REUTERS/Francois Lenoir

 

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Union's chief Brexit negotiator said on Thursday he was worried by Britain's plans for the border arrangement with Ireland after it leaves the EU and urged London to come up with "creative proposals".

 

The comments from Michel Barnier highlighted the gulf between the two sides on one of the trickiest issues thrown up by Brexit - how it will affect the currently seamless movement of people and goods between the Republic of Ireland, which is an EU member, and British-ruled Northern Ireland.

 

Britain said last month that there should be no border posts or immigration checks along the 500 km (300 mile) frontier after Brexit. Some 30,000 people make the crossing each day, and businesses from farming to brewing depend on easy movement of goods between north and south.

 

While Brussels and Dublin also say they want to keep an open border, they say Britain has failed to explain how it would square this with its stated intention to leave the EU's customs union.

 

"What I see in the UK's paper on Ireland and Northern Ireland worries me," Barnier told a news conference in Brussels.

 

"The UK wants the EU to suspend the application of its laws, its customs union and its single market at what will be a new external border for the EU, and the UK wants to use Ireland as a kind of test case for the future EU-UK customs relations. This will not happen," Barnier said.

 

The EU is also concerned that Britain could use the border between the two Irelands as a way to circumvent tariffs that could be imposed in a post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal.

 

Barnier's remarks coincided with the publication of a set of principles from the European Commission, the EU's executive, on how the Irish issue should be dealt with. It explicitly stated that the "onus to propose solutions" on Ireland fell on Britain.

 

The paper also made it clear that a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland should be avoided to protect peace on the island. It said that "any physical border infrastructure" should be ruled out, but that required "flexible and imaginative solutions".

 

LACK OF PROGRESS

 

Nearly three months into Brexit talks, EU and Britain negotiators have made little progress on the Irish border and the other issues - expatriate citizens' rights and the bill that London should pay its EU partners to settle existing financial commitments - that Brussels wants broadly solved before talks on a future trading relationship can start.

 

The Irish government called on Britain to make "substantive commitments" and provide "workable solutions". Prime Minister Leo Varadkar reiterated that for all sides to achieve their aim of avoiding a hard border, Britain needed to stay in the customs union or in a similar arrangement for at least a post-Brexit transition phase.

 

Britain seized on the EU comments about the need for an open border as evidence that British and EU objectives were "closely aligned".

 

"In particular the commitment to avoid any physical infrastructure at the border is a very important step forward," a government spokesman said, adding that the position papers from both sides "clearly provide a good basis on which to continue to make swift progress."

 

(Additional reporting by Alastair Macdonald, Lily Cusack, Padraic Halpin and Kylie MacLellan; Editing by Mark Trevelyan)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-09-08

[smedly]

2 hours ago, webfact said:

The UK wants the EU to suspend the application of its laws, its customs union and its single market at what will be a new external border for the EU, and the UK

so it seems I was right and it is in fact the EU who are objecting to a seamless border and maintaining the special relationship that Ireland and the UK have had for decades

[ilostmypassword]

25 minutes ago, smedly said:

so it seems I was right and it is in fact the EU who are objecting to a seamless border and maintaining the special relationship that Ireland and the UK have had for decades

2 tendentious things to unpack here.

1)The EU wants seamless borders between member nations not between all nations. Or are you in favor of a universal trade union?

  

2)Once the UK is out of the EU it will be importing stuff that wasn't under the EU purview. Lots of scope for cheating. How to control for good entering the EU via Ireland?

[bert bloggs]

There is never going to be a "border " between N AND S Ireland it would be impossible to manage it .

[smedly]

22 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

2 tendentious things to unpack here.

1)The EU wants seamless borders between member nations not between all nations. Or are you in favor of a universal trade union?

  

2)Once the UK is out of the EU it will be importing stuff that wasn't under the EU purview. Lots of scope for cheating. How to control for good entering the EU via Ireland?

well you are of course stating the obvious but the point is that the UK and Ireland have had free trade and free movement long before the EU come into existence, the important issue here is that the EU (Barnier) is pointing the blame finger at the UK when in fact it is the EU that is opposing such a relationship, the UK and Ireland have already jointly found the solution and pretty much are in agreement, maybe time for Barnier to make the EU position clear on what they will allow or not allow, so far he has contributed nothing only making ridiculous demands but offering no solutions or proposals, only blame - that is not a negotiation

 

Also the vile Junker's personal attack on DD abilities was quite frankly a disgrace, how can you negotiate anything with these vile people  

[tomacht8]

Physical borders are expensive and personal costs intensive. 

The Uk must have itself an interest on a reasonable border, otherwise a new immigration route for our poor friends from Africa and the Middle East would arise.

 

And who have to pay for the new border?

Edited September 8, 2017 by tomacht8

[meinphuket]

Britain wants an exit without consequences, and without wanting to pay for long term commitments they agreed to, and entered into while a EU member. Therefore the EU needs to impose work permits on Brits, and have a list of protected job categories. Who needs English chippies or bars in Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece etc? Customs tariffs on goods, services and banking transactions need to be levied on all imports from the UK, visa requirements for all Brits, and possibly a toll fee for trucks, cars and motorbikes for the privilege of using EU road infrastructure. And don't bring up that nonsense about the 2nd world war, for Britain doing nothing would have ultimately resulted in an overwhelming invasion.

[JohnC]

Simple, quit NATO and the vast amount of money saved will pay for any Brexit costs, Oh and Europe can defend itself for a change ( just Google how many members of NATO Don't pay their agreed contribution with Germany being one of the worst offenders!) 

[smedly]

30 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Physical borders are expensive and personal costs intensive. 

The Uk must have itself an interest on a reasonable border, otherwise a new immigration route for our poor friends from Africa and the Middle East would arise.

 

And who have to pay for the new border?

anyone entering the UK illegally can pretty much do nothing, can't work can't claim benefits can't use facilities so there is no point in coming to the UK unless legally invited so it means absolutely nothing

[robertson468]

13 minutes ago, meinphuket said:

Britain wants an exit without consequences, and without wanting to pay for long term commitments they agreed to, and entered into while a EU member. Therefore the EU needs to impose work permits on Brits, and have a list of protected job categories. Who needs English chippies or bars in Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece etc? Customs tariffs on goods, services and banking transactions need to be levied on all imports from the UK, visa requirements for all Brits, and possibly a toll fee for trucks, cars and motorbikes for the privilege of using EU road infrastructure. And don't bring up that nonsense about the 2nd world war, for Britain doing nothing would have ultimately resulted in an overwhelming invasion.

I assume your post is intended to be provocative, rather than constructive?  Which is what we have become used to from the EU Manequins, however, I do understand everyone on each side playing "hard ball" as they are trying to achieve the best deal for their own side and of course there is a long way to go in these negotiations.  I find it a little ammusing that there is no input included in Barniers (rhetoric?) from either North or Southern Ireland, whom it is alleged are largely in favour of the UK solution ie no border check points.  How it is to be managed is another point, but if they can agree on the Policy, then it is up to the "Administrative Wallas" to sort out the detail.  I am guessing you are German?

[terryw]

Neither the UK or Ireland want strict border controls. Anybody who has ever been to the border area knows that it would need hundreds of border guards to police it. Maybe the Germans can supply them.

[tomacht8]

2 minutes ago, terryw said:

Neither the UK or Ireland want strict border controls. Anybody who has ever been to the border area knows that it would need hundreds of border guards to police it. Maybe the Germans can supply them.

Thx. Can we put it on the divorce bill?

[smedly]

9 minutes ago, robertson468 said:

I assume your post is intended to be provocative, rather than constructive?  Which is what we have become used to from the EU Manequins, however, I do understand everyone on each side playing "hard ball" as they are trying to achieve the best deal for their own side and of course there is a long way to go in these negotiations.  I find it a little ammusing that there is no input included in Barniers (rhetoric?) from either North or Southern Ireland, whom it is alleged are largely in favour of the UK solution ie no border check points.  How it is to be managed is another point, but if they can agree on the Policy, then it is up to the "Administrative Wallas" to sort out the detail.  I am guessing you are German?

No because it has become evident that the EU side are not looking for "the best deal" - the best deal would be a customs and trade relationship that works for both the EU and UK

 

As for the UK Ireland border - I repeat again, from long before the formation of the European Union and the EEC before that, there has always been free trade and free movement, it is now clearly the EU that has an issue with that once the UK leaves the EU as technically it becomes a an EU border with a none EU country

 

and remember it was the EU that made the UK Irish border an issue, both Ireland and the UK have no issue with it at all and never have.

[BuaBS]

5 hours ago, terryw said:

Neither the UK or Ireland want strict border controls. Anybody who has ever been to the border area knows that it would need hundreds of border guards to police it. Maybe the Germans can supply them.

They could build a Trump wall .

[puck2]

2 hours ago, bert bloggs said:

There is never going to be a "border " between N AND S Ireland it would be impossible to manage it .

Very easy to manage this problem:

Give NI back to Ireland. No tax- customs- immigrant-problems etc.   

[Baerboxer]

2 hours ago, meinphuket said:

Britain wants an exit without consequences, and without wanting to pay for long term commitments they agreed to, and entered into while a EU member. Therefore the EU needs to impose work permits on Brits, and have a list of protected job categories. Who needs English chippies or bars in Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece etc? Customs tariffs on goods, services and banking transactions need to be levied on all imports from the UK, visa requirements for all Brits, and possibly a toll fee for trucks, cars and motorbikes for the privilege of using EU road infrastructure. And don't bring up that nonsense about the 2nd world war, for Britain doing nothing would have ultimately resulted in an overwhelming invasion.

 

A German who wants to mention the war - how clever! All nonsense, the holocaust, the deaths, the destruction and all because Germany wanted to rule, yeah, course it is. And don't be shy. WW1 was caused by the same nation for the same reason.

 

You seem to think the EU, lead of course by Germany, can impose extreme financial penalties on the UK for daring to be democratic, based on made up figures, based on notions of "doing the right thing as we see it" whilst being as awkward and punishing as they can on everything else. Demand, demand, demand.

 

Barinier was selected as he's a narrow minded unimaginative bully who is a know to dislike the UK. Who does he think he is? He is incapable of coming up with innovative solutions himself so wants the UK to so he can shoot them down with the usual rhetoric.

 

This only ever had a very slim chance of a nice outcome and ending well. And with the spoiled, selfish self righteous, greedy, grabbing, bullying attitude of some, not all, EU leaders, elected and appointed, it's getting slimmer.

 

If you think the UK will simply roll over, then you will get a nice surprise at some point.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2017 by Baerboxer

[dunroaming]

8 hours ago, webfact said:

While Brussels and Dublin also say they want to keep an open border, they say Britain has failed to explain how it would square this with its stated intention to leave the EU's customs union.

 

5 hours ago, smedly said:

so it seems I was right and it is in fact the EU who are objecting to a seamless border and maintaining the special relationship that Ireland and the UK have had for decades

Brussels and Dublin want to keep an open border.  All they want is for the UK to come up with a viable way for it to work.  It is clueless Davis and May that are holding things back as usual.  Anyone with half a brain can see that this issue has to be solved before trade deals can be negotiated as the border will have a direct effect.

[dunroaming]

3 hours ago, meinphuket said:

Who needs English chippies or bars in Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece etc? 

Probably the same people who need the Italian, Spanish, French and Greek restaurants in the UK.  Interesting rant though  

[dunroaming]

5 hours ago, bert bloggs said:

There is never going to be a "border " between N AND S Ireland it would be impossible to manage it .

Wish my world was as simple and straightforward as yours.  Maybe you should be on the UK's negotiating team 

 

Please note smiley face.

[ballpoint]

Make Northern Ireland a separate, independent country and EU member.  Anyone in England, Wales or Scotland who wants independence from the UK, and to remain in the EU, can move there. Anyone currently in Northern Ireland who wants to remain in the UK can move to one of the empty houses in Scotland.  Rename Northern Ireland "Sturgeonland" to remove the Irish hold on it and everyone's happy.

[ballpoint]

More seriously, if Scotland were to become independent, and remain an EU member, would we see the same concern about a hard or soft border between it and the UK from the EU?  Probably not, because the EU would have no points to score off of that.

[dunroaming]

3 hours ago, smedly said:

and remember it was the EU that made the UK Irish border an issue, both Ireland and the UK have no issue with it at all and never have.

56% of people in Northern Ireland voted to remain.  As for the EU making the border an issue, well of course it is an issue if the UK want trade deals.  Otherwise it becomes a hard border.  Then again just scrap Brexit and the border remains as it is now.

 

Rather than to consistently just accuse the EU of trying to block progress you really need to look at the reality.  Brexit is very complicated and both sides are in uncharted waters.  Britain decided to leave the EU.  It wasn't the EU's idea and it wasn't what they wanted.  Neither side is just going to roll over and it would be economic suicide for the UK to walk away without a viable trade arrangement.

[Orac]

Make Northern Ireland a separate, independent country and EU member.  Anyone in England, Wales or Scotland who wants independence from the UK, and to remain in the EU, can move there. Anyone currently in Northern Ireland who wants to remain in the UK can move to one of the empty houses in Scotland.  Rename Northern Ireland "Sturgeonland" to remove the Irish hold on it and everyone's happy.

Carefull - it is the NI religious fundamentalists that are propping up the current govt so they can't afford to upset them with those sort of ideas.

Maybe renationalising Eire is an option?

[smedly]

58 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

56% of people in Northern Ireland voted to remain.  As for the EU making the border an issue, well of course it is an issue if the UK want trade deals.  Otherwise it becomes a hard border.  Then again just scrap Brexit and the border remains as it is now.

 

Rather than to consistently just accuse the EU of trying to block progress you really need to look at the reality.  Brexit is very complicated and both sides are in uncharted waters.  Britain decided to leave the EU.  It wasn't the EU's idea and it wasn't what they wanted.  Neither side is just going to roll over and it would be economic suicide for the UK to walk away without a viable trade arrangement.

I really don't need to look at anything thank you, I have a pretty good handle on what is going on, you have your own ideas and thoughts which is up to you and what ever reality you perceive  

[dunroaming]

46 minutes ago, smedly said:

I really don't need to look at anything thank you, I have a pretty good handle on what is going on, you have your own ideas and thoughts which is up to you and what ever reality you perceive  

You are right, we all have our own individual views and time will tell.  In the meantime though we can all entertain ourselves with the sparring 

[smedly]

1 minute ago, dunroaming said:

You are right, we all have our own individual views and time will tell.  In the meantime though we can all entertain ourselves with the sparring 

I'm not interested in sparring and I'm also not interested in being told how to think, I express opinions here nothing else 

[dunroaming]

2 hours ago, ballpoint said:

More seriously, if Scotland were to become independent, and remain an EU member, would we see the same concern about a hard or soft border between it and the UK from the EU?  Probably not, because the EU would have no points to score off of that.

Of course if Scotland did become independent then they would have to apply to the EU for membership rather than "remain a member".  It would be interesting  (in a self destructive sort of way) if Ireland re-unified and Scotland chose independence.  I guess it would go down as the EU effectively destroying the United Kingdom. 

[dunroaming]

4 minutes ago, smedly said:

I'm not interested in sparring and I'm also not interested in being told how to think, I express opinions here nothing else 

And you are entitled to your opinions as everyone else is.  When you share those opinions with everyone here then you must expect that those opinions will be challenged.  You may not call that sparring but I do.  To simply give an opinion would mean not responding to other people challenging it.  I suspect you, like everyone else here, finds the opportunity to respond much too tempting.