'Disaster looms,' says head of UK's anti-Brexit party

[vogie]

54 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I am just stating the position as I see it. The whole issue is extremely important and if my options are insulting I don't really care. You really think 9M for leaflets is an issue? It's not even peanuts.

 

I maintain that those voting remain TEND to have lower education levels and demonstrably do not understand the background.

 

Its quite frightening actually - the lunatics (or at least the nitwits) have taken over the asylum.

 

I find it astonishing that these Brexiters show no balance, have no consideration of differing viewpoints. It's all binary.

 

If ever there were an example of the dictum " democracy depends upon equal education and access to information" this is it!

 

To educated people, Brexit is madness. 

 

 

Just to balance your post.

 

[aright]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Quite the reverse; just back from month in Europe.

 

Spent a week in the U.K; Winchester was first class but Rotherham wasn't. Timothy Taylor's Landlord is stil excellent.

You talk about education and drink Timothy Taylors......that's a laugh   

[Jip99]

This doesn't sound like a disaster....

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/justin-trudeau-theresa-may-canada-brexit-trade-deal-ceta-ottawa-a7954366.html

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

I am just stating the position as I see it. The whole issue is extremely important and if my options are insulting I don't really care. You really think 9M for leaflets is an issue? It's not even peanuts.

 

I maintain that those voting remain TEND to have lower education levels and demonstrably do not understand the background.

 

Its quite frightening actually - the lunatics (or at least the nitwits) have taken over the asylum.

 

I find it astonishing that these Brexiters show no balance, have no consideration of differing viewpoints. It's all binary.

 

If ever there were an example of the dictum " democracy depends upon equal education and access to information" this is it!

 

To educated people, Brexit is madness. 

 

 

 

'those voting remain TEND to have lower education levels and demonstrably do not understand the background'

 

A bit strong, Grouse, but evidently factual.

[aright]

Democracy does not depend on or serve the needs of the "well educated", its purpose and success depends on and serves the needs of "individualism".

 

To get back on topic ......One of our problems imo is we have become supplicants in our negotiations with  Barnier. To regain the initiative we should tell the European Commission we are determined to leave all the EU's institutions behind us but are never the less willing to carry on trading with them on the basis of current terms if that is what they wish. As a result, the determination of options as to our joint future would be theirs. If the options are not to our liking we put on our coat walk away from the table and immediately start negotiating our future with the rest of the world.

This approach lets us at least share the driving seat.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

I gather you (as a more educated person) meant to say 'those voting Leave'.  Quite ironic really

 

Seriously though, you need to stop with the arrogance and the patronising comments / assumptions about those who voted Leave.

No arrogamce whatever. I merely comment on what I read and observe 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, aright said:

You talk about education and drink Timothy Taylors......that's a laugh   

De gustibus non est disputandum

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

He can't.

 

Like many losers he can only resort to cheap - and meaninglessness - insults.

No, losers tended to vote leave,

[aright]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Degustibus non est disputandum

You've met your match mate when you try to confuse me with Swahili

Utapenda kunywa nini............so there

[Grouse]

Plato (Republic, Book VI) argues that democracy is inferior to various forms of monarchy, aristocracy and even oligarchy on the grounds that democracy tends to undermine the expertise necessary to properly governed societies. In a democracy, he argues, those who are expert at winning elections and nothing else will eventually dominate democratic politics. Democracy tends to emphasize this expertise at the expense of the expertise that is necessary to properly governed societies. The reason for this is that most people do not have the kinds of talents that enable them to think well about the difficult issues that politics involves. But in order to win office or get a piece of legislation passed, politicians must appeal to these people's sense of what is right or not right. Hence, the state will be guided by very poorly worked out ideas that experts in manipulation and mass appeal use to help themselves win office.

[aright]

This is so undemocratic! Why do you give Plato more credence than Harry Dick down the Pub? Anyway he wrote Republic, BookVI  in his later years when he was suffering from Penile Dementia.   

[USPatriot]

You can't leave until you finish paying your share for Greece

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, USPatriot said:

You can't leave until you finish paying your share for Greece

That's a Eurozone problem. We can go right now then? 

[bert bloggs]

14 hours ago, Grouse said:

OK, this how I feel: Deeply saddened.

 

It is entirely obvious that the meaning of democracy and the details of our own polical system is misunderstood except for some buzz words spouted by some

 

The fact is that many who voted leave were NOT in full possession of the facts and are incapable of rational analysis.

 

The red top predigested pap supplied the "data" and low quality education on the UK resulted in millions rising to the bait without the cognitive skills to analyse the situation

 

Many on here (with notable exceptions) leave me deeply depressed with their crass, purile and deeply uninformed comments

 

I feel that the Brexiters will get their way to everyone's disadvantage.

 

It never occurs to these Joes that a balanced view might be appropriate. No, for them it's always 100% this or that.

 

It also never occurs to these people that the fact that the vast majority of those who, on balance, favour the status quo ante, could have any worthwhile points for consideration. No, the lumpen masses must be correct without question.

 

So run along now but don't expect any applause from me ?

On the other hand many of those who voted stay were  not in possesion of all the facts and i feel would now vote leave , two way street Grouse .

[Laughing Gravy]

13 hours ago, Grouse said:

To educated people, Brexit is madness

Not that old chestnut again. I thought we established that as utter rubbish. It is a shame that people still spout this ignorant mantra.

[aright]

Song for Brexit

 

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

13 hours ago, Grouse said:

No arrogamce whatever. I merely comment on what I read and observe 

It sounds like you only read and observe what you want to read and observe.  If you had a more open mind you'd be able to understand the opposing view, as I do. You can understand the opposing view and disagree with it at the same time.

Simply calling those who disagree with you stupid shows a lack of empathy, and limited intelligence.

[bert bloggs]

39 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

It sounds like you only read and observe what you want to read and observe.  If you had a more open mind you'd be able to understand the opposing view, as I do. You can understand the opposing view and disagree with it at the same time.

Simply calling those who disagree with you stupid shows a lack of empathy, and limited intelligence.

And that is how the remainers see us , but cant see that maybe its them that are wrong just like those on the far left 

[Nigel Garvie]

13 hours ago, Grouse said:

Plato (Republic, Book VI) argues that democracy is inferior to various forms of monarchy, aristocracy and even oligarchy on the grounds that democracy tends to undermine the expertise necessary to properly governed societies. In a democracy, he argues, those who are expert at winning elections and nothing else will eventually dominate democratic politics. Democracy tends to emphasize this expertise at the expense of the expertise that is necessary to properly governed societies. The reason for this is that most people do not have the kinds of talents that enable them to think well about the difficult issues that politics involves. But in order to win office or get a piece of legislation passed, politicians must appeal to these people's sense of what is right or not right. Hence, the state will be guided by very poorly worked out ideas that experts in manipulation and mass appeal use to help themselves win office.

This is a sound analysis, democracy is only a good form of government if the electorate are well informed and not manipulated by fantasy magazines like the Daily Seig Heil (Journalism's answer to rabies, even Wikipedia are no longer prepared to quote them). A.C. Grayling has been writing on exactly this problem recently. Even Churchill - no raving lefty - said that the best argument against democracy was to spend 5 mins talking to the average voter.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Nigel Garvie said:

This is a sound analysis, democracy is only a good form of government if the electorate are well informed and not manipulated by fantasy magazines like the Daily Seig Heil (Journalism's answer to rabies, even Wikipedia are no longer prepared to quote them). A.C. Grayling has been writing on exactly this problem recently. Even Churchill - no raving lefty - said that the best argument against democracy was to spend 5 mins talking to the average voter.

You're quite right in that Chuchill was "no raving lefty".  He was a tory politician! 

[Nigel Garvie]

13 hours ago, aright said:

This is so undemocratic! Why do you give Plato more credence than Harry Dick down the Pub? Anyway he wrote Republic, BookVI  in his later years when he was suffering from Penile Dementia.   

The reason is simple, Harry Dick is a dickh**d as his name suggests,  Harry Dick has in fact suffered from Penile dementia all his life!

[Khun Han]

38 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

It sounds like you only read and observe what you want to read and observe.  If you had a more open mind you'd be able to understand the opposing view, as I do. You can understand the opposing view and disagree with it at the same time.

Simply calling those who disagree with you stupid shows a lack of empathy, and limited intelligence.

 

He built a faux-empirical argument around some opinion polls that pointed toward uni students and post-grads supporting remain. As an example for you, my daughter and the rest of her uni crowd voted remain on the single issue of wanting to keep visa-free travel around Europe (as if that would change under brexit! Maybe another remain lie circulated amongst students?) When I tried to raise all the other issues, both pro and con the EU, her face went blank. I asked her if she and any of her friends had discussed these other issues. Guess what the answer was? Further anecdotally, as a long-time business owner, I've had the opportunity to discuss brexit with many other business owners (some of them hugely successful). Only one, who runs a moderately successful industrial plumbing business, voted remain, because he is a staunch Labour supporter, and Labour recommended remain.

 

What's the point in trying to debate with someone who takes the immature view (and based on a false premise) that his opponents are stupid? Best just to ignore people like that.

[aright]

Don

3 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

What's the point in trying to debate with someone who takes the immature view (and based on a false premise) that his opponents are stupid? Best just to ignore people like that.

Nigel Garvie..........take note!!

[Khun Han]

13 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

You're quite right in that Chuchill was "no raving lefty".  He was a tory politician! 

 

Some remainers appear to have gotten themselves more than a little bit 'out there' in their zeal to justify themselves. Democracy is now on the line!!! Maybe one of them can point to a modern non-democratic government which works better than democracy. The high-minded notion of self-appointed experts and professionals running a country has always resulted in abject failure when put into practice

[Khun Han]

25 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

29 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

This is a sound analysis, democracy is only a good form of government if the electorate are well informed and not manipulated by fantasy magazines like the Daily Seig Heil (Journalism's answer to rabies, even Wikipedia are no longer prepared to quote them). A.C. Grayling has been writing on exactly this problem recently. Even Churchill - no raving lefty - said that the best argument against democracy was to spend 5 mins talking to the average voter.

You're quite right in that Chuchill was "no raving lefty".  He was a tory politician! 

 

And Churchill also liked to use the quote: "Democracy is the worst system, except for all the other systems."

[aright]

I take your good point about your daughter and her friends only having one issue in the referendum.

If I could add to that on a non referendum issue . Some time ago Corbyn announced a £10 billion plan to scrap university tuition fees. This stance taken of course to get young people out to vote for him.

Since then he has been back peddling furiously and says it is not Labour Party policy and the idea needs to be consulted more widely. Code for he can't fund it. 

He's done a Clegg!!!

[Khun Han]

16 minutes ago, aright said:

I take your good point about your daughter and her friends only having one issue in the referendum.

If I could add to that on a non referendum issue . Some time ago Corbyn announced a £10 billion plan to scrap university tuition fees. This stance taken of course to get young people out to vote for him.

Since then he has been back peddling furiously and says it is not Labour Party policy and the idea needs to be consulted more widely. Code for he can't fund it. 

He's done a Clegg!!!

 

Corbyn is a pathetic, virtue-signalling figure who is out of touch with reality on almost every issue. Except for a large chunk of The Establishment and their MSM puppets being at odds with PM May's government, Corbyn would still be portrayed by them as a modern-day Tony Benn or Michael Foot, and would thus be viewed as such in the eyes of most of the general public, over-generous social policies or not. His strictly-enforced policy on islamicist radicalism/terrorism, and muslim paedophile rings (whistle-blowers are sacked or forced out) was put firmly into perspective by the former chief prosecutor of North West England's CPS, Nazir Afzal, here:

 

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/rochdale-grooming-prosecutor-nazir-afzal-13271237

[CG1 Blue]

2 hours ago, Khun Han said:

As an example for you, my daughter and the rest of her uni crowd voted remain on the single issue of wanting to keep visa-free travel around Europe (as if that would change under brexit! Maybe another remain lie circulated amongst students?) When I tried to raise all the other issues, both pro and con the EU, her face went blank.

Funny you should say this.  A Thai friend of mine has a daughter at uni in the UK.  Prior to the in/out vote the daughter posted a big long rant on facebook about how bad it would be to vote Leave because we should welcome immigration with open arms, and that a leave vote was discriminating against foreigners. I watched as her 'educated' uni chums all commented in agreement.

I then asked if she thought it was fair that an EU citizen can come and go as they please, yet a Thai citizen (or any other non-EU citizen) could not. "Isn't that discrimination" I asked?  "Shouldn't all foreigners be treated the same?"

I also summarised 3 or 4 other reasons why people might vote Leave, and asked if these had been discussed among her peers.  Silence ensued...

[Grouse]

7 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Not that old chestnut again. I thought we established that as utter rubbish. It is a shame that people still spout this ignorant mantra.

Statistical analysis demonstrated a direct correlation between level of education attained and voting remain.

 

For those statistically challenged here is a Poisson distribution

 

 

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

It sounds like you only read and observe what you want to read and observe.  If you had a more open mind you'd be able to understand the opposing view, as I do. You can understand the opposing view and disagree with it at the same time.

Simply calling those who disagree with you stupid shows a lack of empathy, and limited intelligence.

Nice try!

 

Trouble is I do read widely

 

AND, I do empathise with the disadvantaged and their desire to blame anything or anyone their chosen demagogue chooses. I get it.

 

BUT, the EU is the wrong target

 

Sure, the EU is very far from perfect, but it's not the root of the problems you face. For that, one should look closer to home.

 

We are a rich country and look at us. Embarrassing. 

 

Leaving the EU will not fix your problems. I promise.

 

As for my intelligence, who am I to comment?