Too Many Non-Alcoholics in AA

[pearciderman]

36 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

You know what I think do you?

 

 

Some people get upset when the truth is spoken. Some impostors go to AA and know they don't need that special spiritual experience necessary for the real alcoholic. Yet they go for years, taking and never giving anything. Too damn cheap to get a good therapist. AA is NOT a therapy group, meetings are not a place to go and talk about your chicken-shit week, but a place to go and share how you got a spiritual awakening and recoverED from alcoholism.  

 

So it is not for alcoholics? It is only for ex-alcoholics?

 

Strange, because that is not what their website says, though I guess you know better.

[MrPatrickThai]

24 minutes ago, pearciderman said:

 

So it is not for alcoholics? It is only for ex-alcoholics?

 

Strange, because that is not what their website says, though I guess you know better.

You obviously are not an AA member. 

What is an ex-alcoholic?

AA is for alcoholics, guys like me who have been recovered for decades go to help those new alcoholics coming in(thereby helping ourselves), and to tell the non-alcoholics to shut up.

 

 

 

[Wilson Smith]

Love and tolerance of others is our code.

[MrPatrickThai]

12 hours ago, Wilson Smith said:

Love and tolerance of others is our code.

The impostors at AA meetings certainly are a lesson in tolerance. However, there's a fine line between being tolerant and a doormat. 

 

[superglue]

1 hour ago, MrPatrickThai said:

The impostors at AA meetings certainly are a lesson in tolerance. However, there's a fine line between being tolerant and a doormat. 

 

 

There are 'open' & 'closed' meetings which overcome this.

[Wilson Smith]

10 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

The impostors at AA meetings certainly are a lesson in tolerance. However, there's a fine line between being tolerant and a doormat. 

 

I will go back to my first reply.

 

Whenever I see a post that starts off with criticism and then followed up with quotes from the book to back their point I wonder about all the other quotes from the book like “ like we only know a little” “ Our book is meant to be suggestive only’ “ We never criticize” I can go on and on.

 

Or how about the part in tradition 3 “Who dared to be judge, jury, and executioner of his own sick brother?”

 

How about start off with the 11 step prayer and then decide whether criticizing AA in an public forum is the best way to carry a message.    

 

How about trying to get people in instead of driving people out. 

 

And finally from our founder

AA's Twelve steps are a group of principles, spiritual in their nature, which, if practiced as a way of life, can expel the obsession to drink and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully whole.

 

By the sounds of things you are at least missing one part of this equation.

 

 

[MrPatrickThai]

49 minutes ago, Wilson Smith said:

I will go back to my first reply.

 

Whenever I see a post that starts off with criticism and then followed up with quotes from the book to back their point I wonder about all the other quotes from the book like “ like we only know a little” “ Our book is meant to be suggestive only’ “ We never criticize” I can go on and on.

 

Or how about the part in tradition 3 “Who dared to be judge, jury, and executioner of his own sick brother?”

 

How about start off with the 11 step prayer and then decide whether criticizing AA in an public forum is the best way to carry a message.    

 

How about trying to get people in instead of driving people out. 

 

And finally from our founder

AA's Twelve steps are a group of principles, spiritual in their nature, which, if practiced as a way of life, can expel the obsession to drink and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully whole.

 

By the sounds of things you are at least missing one part of this equation.

 

 

Unlike you starting off with quotes, then criticizing  - lol

 

Did you listen to the most popular AA speaker in the first post?

 

Many in AA today, don't need the obsession to drink expelled as they never had it. Really, I talked to a guy who came to my meeting for years who said he never had the cravings to drink didn't want to as his wife would leave him. The sad part is that he talked at meetings advising newcomers not to do the steps. This is the danger you seem to be missing. 

The big book says, we are RECOVERED alcoholics many times. This  is by working the 12 steps, and helping others. Too many people these days come to AA meetings from treatment centres, which are responsible for all those stupid quotes like "one day at a time", "meeting makers make it", "you'll always be recovering" (as it's better for business) etc.

[MrPatrickThai]

4 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

How about start off with the 11 step prayer and then decide whether criticizing AA in an public forum is the best way to carry a message.    

You seem to be mistaken as to the message this thread is trying to convey. it is not to the newcomer but the old-timer. Don't sit there and let some fraud talk about his bullshit day or the traffic in Bangkok. Don't have discussion meetings, or if you do, suggest "when you reached the 4th dimension", or "when did the spiritual experience happen?"

I carry the message to the new-comer in many ways but not on internet forums, I got to hospitals, clinics etc.

[MrPatrickThai]

 

There is a big difference between "the program" and "the fellowship".

 

Do you have the guts to stand up in a meeting and tell the "'slogan people' to shut the fk up"?

 

Please listen to the most popular AA speaker and tell me what you think about your watered down AA slogans.

 

https://www.recoveryaudio.org/aa-speaker-tapes/chris-r-primary-purpose-group-london

[Wilson Smith]

Just now, MrPatrickThai said:

 

There is a big difference between "the program" and "the fellowship".

 

Do you have the guts to stand up in a meeting and tell the "'slogan people' to shut the fk up"?

 

https://www.recoveryaudio.org/aa-speaker-tapes/chris-r-primary-purpose-group-london

I am not criticizing AA, I am just stating my observation that your post and later comments come off as a very angry person. 

 

More AA music.

 

It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us.  If somebody hurts us and we are sore, we are in the wrong also.  But are there no exceptions to this rule?  What about “justifiable” anger?  If somebody cheats us, aren’t we entitled to be mad?  Can’t we be properly angry with self-righteous folk?  For us of A.A. these are dangerous exceptions.  We have found that justified anger ought to be left to those better qualified to handle it.

 

Back to tradition 3 “Who dared to be judge, jury, and executioner of his own sick brother?”

 

If you do not like someone share then you can share about the solution and the new people will be attracted to people who share the solution not about traffic.

 

You want to use Chris R as your reference? How about listening to Bill W. talks, his writings. Bill W said we know only a little and Chris R seems to know everything. One thing Chris R doesn't know is tradition 10.

No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial issues—particularly those of politics, alcohol

reform, or sectarian religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning such matters they can express no views whatever.

 

  

[MrPatrickThai]

1 minute ago, Wilson Smith said:

I am not criticizing AA, I am just stating my observation that your post and later comments come off as a very angry person. 

 

“Who dared to be judge, jury, and executioner of his own sick brother?”

 

I am not angry at ALL!

 

Did you listen to the guy?

 

AA is falling apart and Bill W would be turning in his grave. 

 

 

[Wilson Smith]

I met Chris some 15 years back and have heard several of his talks. He is a single speaker.

 

2 Millions people in AA that have sobered up from a seemingly hopeless disease.

 

and some how you are have elected yourself the spokesman that AA is ruined and Bill W. is rolling over in his grave. We pick the role we play. I thought I may have seen you in the movie theater screaming "Fire", I am not sure I was too busy enjoying the movie.  

[gerryBScot]

On 10/31/2017 at 11:03 AM, MrPatrickThai said:

 

 

Do you have the guts to stand up in a meeting and tell the "'slogan people' to shut the fk up"?

 

 

 

AA would grind to a standstill if such behaviour became normal. AA is not a debating society. There is a reason why we practise tolerance and sometime indulge people. I would suggest you are missing a big part of AA if this is your approach.

[MrPatrickThai]

18 minutes ago, gerryBScot said:

 

AA would grind to a standstill if such behaviour became normal. AA is not a debating society. There is a reason why we practise tolerance and sometime indulge people. I would suggest you are missing a big part of AA if this is your approach.

What do you think is the factor for AA success rate dropping from 75% in the 1940's to 5% today?

I think it's members not wanting to hurt others' feelings by suggesting maybe they don't belong. This plus the lack of literature-based meeting in Bangkok. There are too many "discussion/topic" meetings, which give the newcomer the wrong message. The last meeting I went to in Bangkok(with over 20 people") was started by some guy who asked everyone to say "Om" three times then had a 15 minute meditation like they did in bloody Texas or somewhere. Then the first person he asked to share was a guy at his second meeting with 4 day sobriety. 

Nobody, including me, said anything, although I told the chairperson afterwards that this is BS.

[Wilson Smith]

2 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

What do you think is the factor for AA success rate dropping from 75% in the 1940's to 5% today?

I think it's members not wanting to hurt others' feelings by suggesting maybe they don't belong. This plus the lack of literature-based meeting in Bangkok. There are too many "discussion/topic" meetings, which give the newcomer the wrong message. The last meeting I went to in Bangkok(with over 20 people") was started by some guy who asked everyone to say "Om" three times then had a 15 minute meditation like they did in bloody Texas or somewhere. Then the first person he asked to share was a guy at his second meeting with 4 day sobriety. 

Nobody, including me, said anything, although I told the chairperson afterwards that this is BS.

You keep repeating yourself so I will repeat.

 

Talking stats is a slippery slope. 80% this and 5% that.

 

I will try to point out a few factors.

 

I will assume you mean the 80% is from the early early days. Perhaps from Doctor Bob and the Old Timers. You actually had to be invited to the meeting and basically do the first 3 steps and agree to the rest of them before going to a meeting so of course the people who did that had a higher chance of success. What about the 70 people who failed to stay sober before Bill met Bob. Yes today anyone can just walk in “check it out” or get funneled through to a meeting from a court, a rehab, a doctor, or anywhere really. Many of these people may not even want to be there, many people go there to prove to whoever sent them there that AA doesn’t work and they prove that to themselves to show how it doesn’t work.

 

There are other stats such as, people who go to 100 meetings a year, 200 meeting a year and it is amazing how the success rate shoots up!

 

 

I believe my main point is, what is the point of talking about stats? The question is, is it working for you? Two millions of people ++ in AA staying sober. If you want to stick with the big book “Rarely have we been a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path… “  It turns out AA works if you want it too and if you don’t want it to work it won’t.

 

Back to the point with throwing out dismal stats (which are not proven), how is that helping a new person reading this forum.

 

Back to the literature, the daily reflections from just a few days ago, October 7.

 

Again you keep talking about "Bad" meetings, what are you bring to the meeting to make it "better". By the sound of it you are bringing anger, judgement, resentment. Again we choose the role we play.

[al007]

I was19 yrs sober, and stopped going to meetings,( and we know generally what happens to those who stop going to meetings) for my years sober I had averaged over a meeting a day, today at 72,  I drink  and sometimes alcoholically

 

Am I an alcoholic maybe and probably

 

I am ten years on from when I stopped going to meetings but lets remember, no one can be barred, if you are not happy call a group conscience meeting

 

In my early days yes I was angry, and upset, and used to take others inventories, and thats OK if it keeps you coming back

 

I was intolerant of others, and when they banged on on topics I did not like, God arranged that, to teach me tolerance, as time went on i did notice this anymore

 

We have to learn not to let others live rent free in our head

 

And I promise I will pray for you Mr Patrick, ( maybe you could share your age with us !)

 

God Bless you have to do what ever is required to keep you sober, I got sober in London, with thousands of meetings, 

[gerryBScot]

AA is successful because of the 12 x 12. Everything that anyone anywhere needs to know about getting sober in AA is there; our approved literature provides a very powerful commentary on these matters.If it doesn't float your boat, there are many alternatives including:  counselling, group therapy, medication, death, insanity, a miracle, a Damascene conversion, an act of God and imprisonment to name a few of the many possibilities. 

 

AA has stood the test of time. We do not concern ourselves with 'performance' because the only success in AA is a period of 24 hours without a drink. The entire addictions' field is bedevilled by the problem of producing 'performance' statistics that are valid and/or reliable. How do you measure the successful rehabilitation of an alcoholic?  A member has just posted ( thanks for sharing AL)  that he went out for further research after 19 years and is still out there. This member would have been classed as a success by most alcohol agencies but would we in AA really say things to him like : you probably weren't an alcoholic to begin with, or well after 19 years it is ok to take a few drinks every now and then especially if you don't really think you're a drunk ....? 

 

If you say you are in, you are in. There's nowhere anywhere that has such an open door policy and long may it continue. 

 

[MrPatrickThai]

Hi Al,

 

I'm sure you mean well. I'm 52 by the way.

 

Alcoholics I know who started drinking again said it was worse than before, like what it would have been if they had been drinking all along. It is a progressive disease. You say now you can take it or leave it, it's a miracle if your an alcoholic.

 

One question, have you ever had DT's?

 

When you came into AA, perhaps a sponsor should have made sure if you were alcoholic or not, but maybe those wasted years in AA were not a waste of time.

 

Just because someone goes to AA doesn't mean their an alcoholic.

 

I would suggest you take this  questionnaires honestly to find out if you are an alcoholic now. https://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/is-aa-for-you-twelve-questions-only-you-can-answer

 

If you'd like to talk in person feel free to PM me.

 

All the best

 

Patrick

[al007]

13 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Hi Al,

 

I'm sure you mean well. I'm 52 by the way.

 

Alcoholics I know who started drinking again said it was worse than before, like what it would have been if they had been drinking all along. It is a progressive disease. You say now you can take it or leave it, it's a miracle if your an alcoholic.

 

One question, have you ever had DT's?

 

When you came into AA, perhaps a sponsor should have made sure if you were alcoholic or not, but maybe those wasted years in AA were not a waste of time.

 

Just because someone goes to AA doesn't mean their an alcoholic.

 

I would suggest you take this  questionnaires honestly to find out if you are an alcoholic now. https://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/is-aa-for-you-twelve-questions-only-you-can-answer

 

If you'd like to talk in person feel free to PM me.

 

All the best

 

Patrick

I reply on open forum, because I believe that what I say can and may help others

 

NO fortunately I never suffered DTs,did have some horrendous hangovers, but being self inflicted had to just power through it,  but on the evaluation list I ticked many boxes, it is not about what you did not do but about what you did

 

I have never read that a sponsor has to verify if one is an alcoholic, my definition of sponsor is some one who is available 24/7 to give unconditional love and help when the sponsee needs it, and guide that person at a speed the sponsee is happy with through the program and steps, I do not believe in boot camp

 

I did not go to a treatment centre although prior to getting to AA I was shown one but hung onto my car keys very strongly, and one of my many escapes in life

 

I was a functioning practising screwed up alcoholic, yes I had brief encounters with prison, yes I had blackouts, yes many complained about my drinking, yes I crashed cars when drunk, yes I had drunk driving charges ( but my employer liked what I did for the company and gave me a chauffeur), the prefect enabler, I did not drink before lunchtime, I was a high achiever, often using alcohol as rocket fuel, I was divorced for my alcoholism

 

I still buy Sangsom by the case not the bottle, when we go to a restaurant I normally take half a bottle because then I drink less !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I believe my 19 yrs not drinking gave my body a chance of recovery, at the end of my drinking my liver was almost shot, today it is very ok and for cancer reasons I am on monthly blood tests

 

At 72 my tolerance for alcohol is relatively low, but I still pour heavy drinks and do not comprehend those who put a mere capful in a glass, if friends come to my house today I ask them to pour their own drinks mine are too dangerous for many

 

If my cancer doctors want me to stop drinking we have to work round that, true alcoholic thinking but true!!

 

When I arrived at AA, I was not an alcoholic, so I thought !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Fake it to make it, well thats what I did and as time passed, I accepted alcoholism

 

We all have rock bottoms at different levels, and some times I felt with a materially high rock bottom it made life more difficult, to accept being an alcoholic

 

You can choose to get off the elevator to destruction at any time as it goes down, faster and faster before exploding as may well happen

 

I share here because I have such great respect for AA, it has taught me so much, I have been to meetings all round the globe

 

There is a bit in the big book about the man that wants to go back out and can not remember exactly but goes along the lines if a person wants to go back out and thinks he can drink like a gentleman our hats are off to him, no resentments or criticisms from AA

 

It is very dangerous for AA to suggest anyone is not an alcoholic, and if I ever heard that at a meeting I would have responded very strongly

 

Generally the biggest problem is getting the newcomer to get acceptance, once that has happened the odds of survival increase substantially

 

Yes I am a miracle, and all the promises have come true,( every one of them) and I have that life beyond my wildest dreams, as as been the case since I walked through the doors of AA

 

God Bless, and Thank You GOD

 

PS

Patrick maybe I am a lost cause, worry about keeping people in AA not scaring them away, the success of AA is its attraction, concentrate on the newcomer, not old nutters like me

 

[Neeranam]

42 minutes ago, al007 said:

I reply on open forum, because I believe that what I say can and may help others

 

NO fortunately I never suffered DTs,did have some horrendous hangovers, but being self inflicted had to just power through it,  but on the evaluation list I ticked many boxes, it is not about what you did not do but about what you did

 

I have never read that a sponsor has to verify if one is an alcoholic, my definition of sponsor is some one who is available 24/7 to give unconditional love and help when the sponsee needs it, and guide that person at a speed the sponsee is happy with through the program and steps, I do not believe in boot camp

 

I did not go to a treatment centre although prior to getting to AA I was shown one but hung onto my car keys very strongly, and one of my many escapes in life

 

I was a functioning practising screwed up alcoholic, yes I had brief encounters with prison, yes I had blackouts, yes many complained about my drinking, yes I crashed cars when drunk, yes I had drunk driving charges ( but my employer liked what I did for the company and gave me a chauffeur), the prefect enabler, I did not drink before lunchtime, I was a high achiever, often using alcohol as rocket fuel, I was divorced for my alcoholism

 

I still buy Sangsom by the case not the bottle, when we go to a restaurant I normally take half a bottle because then I drink less !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I believe my 19 yrs not drinking gave my body a chance of recovery, at the end of my drinking my liver was almost shot, today it is very ok and for cancer reasons I am on monthly blood tests

 

At 72 my tolerance for alcohol is relatively low, but I still pour heavy drinks and do not comprehend those who put a mere capful in a glass, if friends come to my house today I ask them to pour their own drinks mine are too dangerous for many

 

If my cancer doctors want me to stop drinking we have to work round that, true alcoholic thinking but true!!

 

When I arrived at AA, I was not an alcoholic, so I thought !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Fake it to make it, well thats what I did and as time passed, I accepted alcoholism

 

We all have rock bottoms at different levels, and some times I felt with a materially high rock bottom it made life more difficult, to accept being an alcoholic

 

You can choose to get off the elevator to destruction at any time as it goes down, faster and faster before exploding as may well happen

 

I share here because I have such great respect for AA, it has taught me so much, I have been to meetings all round the globe

 

There is a bit in the big book about the man that wants to go back out and can not remember exactly but goes along the lines if a person wants to go back out and thinks he can drink like a gentleman our hats are off to him, no resentments or criticisms from AA

 

It is very dangerous for AA to suggest anyone is not an alcoholic, and if I ever heard that at a meeting I would have responded very strongly

 

Generally the biggest problem is getting the newcomer to get acceptance, once that has happened the odds of survival increase substantially

 

Yes I am a miracle, and all the promises have come true,( every one of them) and I have that life beyond my wildest dreams, as as been the case since I walked through the doors of AA

 

God Bless, and Thank You GOD

 

PS

Patrick maybe I am a lost cause, worry about keeping people in AA not scaring them away, the success of AA is its attraction, concentrate on the newcomer, not old nutters like me

 

Interesting story Al!

 

Not sure how your story can help anyone.

Finding someone who is still suffering from alcoholism and showing them how to work the steps and how you got a spiritual experience is. A real alcoholic might read this and think they can do what you did, and die!

So a sponsee works the steps as they feel comfortable? I'd still be unfinished if that was the case ? I wonder how many sponsees you had in your 19 years in AA?

How long did you decide was comfortable to work the steps, if you did them at all?

 

It's the first story I've heard where AA has taught someone how to drink! You say nobody complains of your drinking?

 

I for sure had the DTs but not all alcoholics reach that stage of the disease. As Patrick said, "it's a progressive disease", and to speak frankly, there is something missing here. If you are 72 and a real alcoholic you would, IMHO, suffer from the DTs and certainly would not have the choice of drinking or not.I never had hangovers btw.

 

Over 5000 AA meetings and you are not sure if you're an alcoholic? Fake it eh? Then leave, and are ever so grateful. Do you ever think of those coming into AA now? Maybe you just leave that to others to keep meetings open. Ever thought that some AA member may be traveling the world to your area and need a meeting?

I am not AA, but an alcoholic for sure, and you sound to me like a fraud. The type of guy the OP talks about. 

Be honest, Sir.

Can you control the amount you drink?

Can you drink half a bottle of Saeng Som and stop? I needed one to get out of bed.

 

 

 

 

 

[Neeranam]

The following really means do all heavy drinkers have alcoholism.

But they call it something else now.

https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders

 

 

Do all excessive drinkers have an alcohol use disorder?

No. About 90% of people who drink excessively would notbe expected to meet the clinical diagnostic criteria for having a severe alcohol use disorder.⁴ A severe alcohol use disorder, previously known as alcohol dependence or alcoholism, is a chronic disease.⁵ Some of the signs and symptoms of a severe alcohol use disorder could include:

• Inability to limit drinking.
• Continuing to drink despite personal or professional problems.
• Needing to drink more to get the same effect.
• Wanting a drink so badly you can’t think of anything else.

[MrPatrickThai]

5 hours ago, al007 said:

Fake it to make it, well thats what I did and as time passed, I accepted alcoholism

 

PS

Patrick maybe I am a lost cause, worry about keeping people in AA not scaring them away, the success of AA is its attraction, concentrate on the newcomer, not old nutters like me

 

Why on earth would you want to fake being an alcoholic, if you are not ? Too cheap to pay for a good therapist? Lonely? 

 

After a while, you'll know if you have that spiritual malady, mental obsession, and physical craving, or not.  

 

I don't worry about you in the slightest, why should I?

 

But I DO concentrate on the newcomers. 

 

 

[MrPatrickThai]

4 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I for sure had the DTs but not all alcoholics reach that stage of the disease. As Patrick said, "it's a progressive disease", and to speak frankly, there is something missing here. If you are 72 and a real alcoholic you would, IMHO, suffer from the DTs and certainly would not have the choice of drinking or not.I never had hangovers btw.

 

Yes, something doesn't add up here as all real alkies will see. 

[473geo]

I'm pleased I carry the label of 'reformed heavy drinker' I am pleased AA concentrates on those who have truly lost their way.....fortunately I found a loving wife and family who were everything I needed to replace alcohol.

 

Some of us are just lucky enough to come across the correct motivation to cut out the heavy drinking, and for sure I never thought of troubling the good people of AA. I fully accept all major actions in my life are controlled by me, and I alone must apply solutions to the deal with the consequences. In me is the root cause, but also the solution.

 

 

[MrPatrickThai]

13 hours ago, 473geo said:

I'm pleased I carry the label of 'reformed heavy drinker' I am pleased AA concentrates on those who have truly lost their way.....fortunately I found a loving wife and family who were everything I needed to replace alcohol.

 

Some of us are just lucky enough to come across the correct motivation to cut out the heavy drinking, and for sure I never thought of troubling the good people of AA. I fully accept all major actions in my life are controlled by me, and I alone must apply solutions to the deal with the consequences. In me is the root cause, but also the solution.

 

 

I'm also happy and respect you for not troubling the good people of AA. You can do it on willpower/change of circumstances etc, an alcoholic can't. He needs a higher power.

 

here's an early AA preamble which describes who AA is for

 

We are gathered here because we are faced with the fact that we are powerless over alcohol and unable to do anything about it without the help of a Power greater than ourselves. We feel that each person's religious views, if any, are his own affair. The simple purpose of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous is to show what may be done to enlist the aid of a Power greater than ourselves regardless of what our individual conception of that Power may be.  

In order to form a habit of depending upon and referring all we do to that Power, we must at first apply ourselves with some diligence. By often repeating these acts, they become habitual and the help rendered becomes natural to us.  

We have all come to know that as alcoholics we are suffering from a serious illness for which medicine has no cure. Our condition may be the result of an allergy which makes us different from other people. It has never been by any treatment with which we are familiar, permanently cured. The only relief we have to offer is absolute abstinence, the second meaning of A. A.  

There are no dues or fees. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. Each member squares his debt by helping others to recover.  

An Alcoholics Anonymous is an alcoholic who through application and adherence to the A. A. program has forsworn the use of any and all alcoholic beverage in any form. The moment he takes so much as one drop of beer, wine, spirits or any other alcoholic beverage he automatically loses all status as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous.   A.A. is not interested in sobering up drunks who are not sincere in their desire to remain sober for all time. Not being reformers, we offer our experience only to those who want it.  

We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree and on which we can join in harmonious action. Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our program. Those who do not recover are people who will not or simply cannot give themselves to this simple program. Now you may like this program or you may not, but the fact remains, it works. It is our only chance to recover.  

There is a vast amount of fun in the A.A. fellowship. Some people might be shocked at our seeming worldliness and levity, but just underneath there lies a deadly earnestness and a full realization that we must put first things first and with each of us the first thing is our alcoholic problem. To drink is to die. Faith must work twenty-four hours a day in and through us or we perish.  

In order to set our tone for this meeting I ask that we bow our heads in a few moments of silent prayer and meditation.  

I wish to remind you that whatever is said at this meeting expresses our own individual opinion as of today and as of up to this moment. We do not speak for A.A. as a whole and you are free to agree or disagree as you see fit. In fact, it is suggested that you pay no attention to anything which might not be reconciled with what is in the A. A. Big Book.  

If you don't have a Big Book, it's time you bought you one. Read it, study it, live with it, loan it, scatter it, and then learn from it what it means to be an A.A.

[Wilson Smith]

Standing on a pedestal asking if you have had DTs? Is this now the qualifier? Is this an attempt to out bottom other people?  Where is the humility? I keep hearing about how many years of meetings and is it possible the whole point of the fellowship is missed after all those years? Love and tolerance of other is our code. Humility is our goal. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions.

 

How can we cherry pick quotes when the whole fabric has been missed.

 

 

“We were resolved to admit nobody to A.A. but that hypothetical class of people we termed ‘pure alcoholics.’ Except for their guzzling, and the unfortunate results thereof, they could have no other complications. So beggars, tramps, asylum inmates, prisoners, queers, plain crackpots, and fallen women were definitely out. Yes sir, we’d cater only

to pure and respectable alcoholics! Any others would surely destroy us. Besides, if we took in those odd ones, what would decent people say about us? We built a fine-mesh fence right around A.A. “Maybe this sounds comical now. Maybe you think we old-timers were pretty intolerant. But I can tell you there was nothing funny about the situation then. We were grim because we felt our lives and homes were threatened, and that was no laughing matter. Intolerant, you say? Well, we were frightened. Naturally, we began to act like most everybody does when afraid. After all, isn’t fear the true basis of intolerance? Yes, we were intolerant.”

 

How could we then guess that all those fears were to prove groundless? How could we know that thousands of these sometimes frightening people were to make astonishing recoveries and become our greatest workers and intimate friends? Was it credible that A.A. was to have a divorce rate far lower than average? Could we then foresee that troublesome people were to become our principal teachers of patience and tolerance? Could any than imagine a society which would include every conceivable kind

of character, and cut across every barrier of race, creed, politics, and language with ease?

Why did A.A. finally drop all its membership regulations? Why did we leave it to each newcomer to decide himself whether he was an alcoholic and whether he should

join us? Why did we dare to say, contrary to the experience of society and government everywhere, that we would neither punish nor deprive any A.A. of membership, that we

must never compel anyone to pay anything, believe anything, or conform to anything?

 

The answer, now seen in Tradition Three, was simplicity itself. At last experience taught us that to take away any alcoholic’s full chance was sometimes to pronounce his

death sentence, and often to condemn him to endless misery. Who dared to be judge, jury, and executioner of his own sick brother?

 

[gerryBScot]

We of AA need to be careful to avoid professional definitions regardless of how helpful they maybe. Membership of AA does not require an individual to have experienced the DTs. The medical profession often distinguish between alcohol misuse and alcohol dependency and as Neeranam indicated above the DTs would generally be evidence to a medic of dependency. This is a useful distinction in medical terms, for instance, if a professional judgement is being made about a person's fitness to drive or operate machinery. However it has no place in AA - 'come back, son, when you've had the DTs' rings in my ears, in other words, prove you're an alcoholic. I believe the changes to the  preamble quoted by .Patrick show just how perspicacious Bill W really was. We owe much to him notwithstanding his abundant shortcomings. 

 

Isn't the reality that those who do not belong simply drift away over time or the meeting simply folds? Isn't it the case that most of us chose to go to groups where we can relate to the other members?

 

I feel fortunate for my early years where I was exposed to both traditional AA and the cult people. I avoided the latter's groups after a while. I did not want to do things like jump in the air and kick my heels because I was happy; I did not want to instruct newcomers to phone me at a prearranged time and <deleted> them if they failed to do so and I did not want to tell raw beginners to get on their knees and pray. Likewise I did not want to say I was deliriously happy since I quit drinking because I had found a higher power. Au contraire I had a sponsor who used to say to me : normal people work and this programme is a bridge between alcoholism and normal life - get a job!  When I started to work I needed that sponsor and the programme to stay afloat and deal with the crap involved in having a crap job!

 

To be honest I found love and tolerance in the rooms I chose to hang out in and do service. I always went to meetings when I travelled and so I also got a lot of exposure to meetings up and down the UK. That first crap job involved selling and travelling and I had to deal with all manner of nonsense - working 12 hours a day and then being expected to travel 50 to 60 miles to the cheapest hotel! Most places I was welcomed and looked after - no one ever asked if I ever had had the DTs! 

 

As I've said many times I would chose not to drink today if the doctors told me they had made a mistake. Incidentally they never diagnosed me in the first place - I did and I picked up the phone. Life is simply better. When I drank a small amount of communion wine at my wedding, without thinking about it, I collected myself and said no worries. Yeah I could feel it warm my insides as it went down and I cold feel its effect but I walked away from it and didn't drink at all at the reception despite laying on a substantial free bar for my guests. I remember looking at them as the night wore on and being grateful I didn't drink. By a strict interpretation of some of the stuff posted here I cannot be an alcoholic because that one drop should have set off an earthquake. I really don't worry about what others think about it - the people that mean the most to me are grateful I don't drink anymore, they see the transformation. More than anything I am saying to anyone reading this that I am an alcoholic, name Gerry and I haven't had a drink today.

 

God bless you all.

[Neeranam]

On 06/11/2017 at 6:39 PM, gerryBScot said:

We of AA need to be careful to avoid professional definitions regardless of how helpful they maybe. Membership of AA does not require an individual to have experienced the DTs. The medical profession often distinguish between alcohol misuse and alcohol dependency and as Neeranam indicated above the DTs would generally be evidence to a medic of dependency. This is a useful distinction in medical terms, for instance, if a professional judgement is being made about a person's fitness to drive or operate machinery. However it has no place in AA - 'come back, son, when you've had the DTs' rings in my ears, in other words, prove you're an alcoholic. I believe the changes to the  preamble quoted by .Patrick show just how perspicacious Bill W really was. We owe much to him notwithstanding his abundant shortcomings. 

 

Isn't the reality that those who do not belong simply drift away over time or the meeting simply folds? Isn't it the case that most of us chose to go to groups where we can relate to the other members?

 

I feel fortunate for my early years where I was exposed to both traditional AA and the cult people. I avoided the latter's groups after a while. I did not want to do things like jump in the air and kick my heels because I was happy; I did not want to instruct newcomers to phone me at a prearranged time and <deleted> them if they failed to do so and I did not want to tell raw beginners to get on their knees and pray. Likewise I did not want to say I was deliriously happy since I quit drinking because I had found a higher power. Au contraire I had a sponsor who used to say to me : normal people work and this programme is a bridge between alcoholism and normal life - get a job!  When I started to work I needed that sponsor and the programme to stay afloat and deal with the crap involved in having a crap job!

 

To be honest I found love and tolerance in the rooms I chose to hang out in and do service. I always went to meetings when I travelled and so I also got a lot of exposure to meetings up and down the UK. That first crap job involved selling and travelling and I had to deal with all manner of nonsense - working 12 hours a day and then being expected to travel 50 to 60 miles to the cheapest hotel! Most places I was welcomed and looked after - no one ever asked if I ever had had the DTs! 

 

As I've said many times I would chose not to drink today if the doctors told me they had made a mistake. Incidentally they never diagnosed me in the first place - I did and I picked up the phone. Life is simply better. When I drank a small amount of communion wine at my wedding, without thinking about it, I collected myself and said no worries. Yeah I could feel it warm my insides as it went down and I cold feel its effect but I walked away from it and didn't drink at all at the reception despite laying on a substantial free bar for my guests. I remember looking at them as the night wore on and being grateful I didn't drink. By a strict interpretation of some of the stuff posted here I cannot be an alcoholic because that one drop should have set off an earthquake. I really don't worry about what others think about it - the people that mean the most to me are grateful I don't drink anymore, they see the transformation. More than anything I am saying to anyone reading this that I am an alcoholic, name Gerry and I haven't had a drink today.

 

God bless you all.

Good post, showing much experience.

I wonder if a normal person, forced to drink every day for a year would suffer alcohol withdraws, or DTs?

I have a friend who had 20 years of sobriety in Bangkok AA. 20 yeas ago, he drank some wine as he was told to test his faith in Jesus, he drank for many years again after that.

I was at a meeting where the topic was the real alcoholic v the heavy drinker this week.

Also mentioned was the recovered v recovering debate.

IMHO, the recovering alcoholic is still suffering from untreated alcoholism. The recovered alcoholic is not suffering anyone.

I never identify myself as either, but I would say in my limited experience, the ones that get upset with it all are  probably not sponsoring someone, and probably have not worked the 12 steps with a sponsor.

My message to newcomers is on page 90 of the big book , to give them hope that they can recover from a hopeless state of mind.

 

 

[ding]

I chose to stop fighting many years ago.

For me, I have to watch for finding a divide or an issue that will eventually lead to the side door out.

That said, I have decided to stop going to certain meetings and started going to new ones over the years.

I'm fortunate that there are many meetings where I live and choose to go.

I am careful to go where that is the case.

[MrPatrickThai]

On 11/6/2017 at 1:06 PM, Wilson Smith said:

The answer, now seen in Tradition Three, was simplicity itself. At last experience taught us that to take away any alcoholic’s full chance was sometimes to pronounce his

death sentence, and often to condemn him to endless misery. Who dared to be judge, jury, and executioner of his own sick brother?

Notice the word, "alcoholic".

 

Anyone that denies there are not many non alcoholics in AA nowadays is irrational.