Legitimizing a child through the Thai courts

[Kenny202]

I recently went through this process and as I received so much conflicting information I thought I would share my experience here.

Relatively simple process providing the mother agrees. It was necesary in my case as we were not legally married and I am basically

taking sole care of my son. For those of you who don't know...if you are not married, in Thailand law you are not legally recognised as

the father even with your name on the birth certificate. You have two options...

 

If the child is over 7 years old you may go to the amphur office with your child and the mother and register it there

 

If the child is under 7 years you must apply through the courts. I was told by some a lawyer wasn't required but I found this not to be the case.

 

In my case the mother agreed. We paid a lawyer 15,000 THB. Signed all the initial documents. Provided as much information as possible to prove we have history together. Copies of birth certificates etc. After a bout one month you go to the child welfare department and mother and father give statements as to their history and the history of the child. We also took grandma as a witness and she also signed a statement. took around 2 hours.

 

Then you wait another month or so for the court hearing. Your lawyer will ask you around 10 preselected questions in front of the judge. About how

long you have been together, when you met. Your address etc. A morning sitting around waiting basically and 10 minutes in front of the judge.

In my case I was lucky and the judge said she would issue the legal documents to say I was the legal father.

If it was refused I would have had to go and seek DNA testing which the judge said normally was the case with a foreigner so I guess I was lucky.

 

Now I wait around 1 month to get the court certificate and I need to go and register this in the amphur my child was born and registered on the Tabien Bahn.

 

It was all a relatively painless and simple procedure. May be a different story if the mother is refusing to co operate.

My advice there is suggest to her should you pass, the child will receive your inheritance if he is your legal child. She will start to salivate.

 

Then go and make sure you make a will stating should you die your child will receive your money, but to be held in trust until 21

 

[Sumarianson]

I had it done at the Amphur with my x partner and my then 7 year old. 40 minutes and had several original copies of the document, Which I would advise anyone to do. No Lawyer needed, no courts etc. 

X partner and child must be willing to sign, otherwise Lawyer and court route.

[Kenny202]

8 hours ago, Sumarianson said:

I had it done at the Amphur with my x partner and my then 7 year old. 40 minutes and had several original copies of the document, Which I would advise anyone to do. No Lawyer needed, no courts etc. 

X partner and child must be willing to sign, otherwise Lawyer and court route.

And very importantly child needs to be over 7yo to register at Amphur. Under that age you need to go to court. Ridiculously they consider a child 7yo old enough to point at the dad and confirm the father

[Odin Norway]

23 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

And very importantly child needs to be over 7yo to register at Amphur. Under that age you need to go to court. Ridiculously they consider a child 7yo old enough to point at the dad and confirm the father

To register at the amphur office you can do just after the birth.With both parrents present you will get youre name in the birthsertificate.For the kid to have any rights in the country ouside thailand it may be different rules.In my case as a norwegian I must go the court-way as the OP is saying.My country do not exept DNA test so it must be a document from the court.Strange that the DNA is not good enough in this case.

 

For any other norwegian out there that get a kid ouside leagal/documented marriage.If you have an adress back in Norway you are safe.For me that have emigrated out of Norway for more then 3 years.You do need a document from a judge.

[blackcab]

On 20/09/2017 at 6:44 AM, Kenny202 said:

...Then go and make sure you make a will stating should you die your child will receive your money, but to be held in trust until 21

 

Sadly, there is no such thing as a Trust or Trust Law in Thailand.

 

Section 1686 of the Civil and Commercial Code specifically disallows trusts:

 

Trusts created whether directly or indirectly by will or by any juristic act producing effect during lifetime or after death shall have no effect whatever.

 

You would have to arrange the trust in a different country (which might be a good thing).

[offset]

In Thailand is there any other way of stopping the mother getting control of you Child's money when you die

[Kenny202]

In Thailand is there any other way of stopping the mother getting control of you Child's money when you die

I'd be interested if there was an answer to that one

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[MikeyIdea]

Difficult. Best I could come up with in Thailand was;

Land in my daughters name, cannot be sold until she reaches majority except by court order, not married so my daughter inherits me. Funny story about the provident fund. I wanted my daughter as beneficiary and the company wouldn't do it in the beginning because they knew it would be difficult for the mother to get to use it. Yes, that's exactly what I want and they finally accepted my signature and registered her as beneficiary a couple of meetings later

 

Juvenile court will put my daughters assets under don't know the right name, Childrens welfare department something, and it will be portioned out. Problem is I don't trust them and the mother is the only legal guardian left so she will be the one receiving the payments. How much can she influence Childrens welfare department? I have a will drawn up by a Thai lawyer stating exactly how money should be portioned out until child reaches majority. One part also states that guardian for the assets and guardian of the child cannot be the same person 

 

I trust land in my daughters name, I don't trust the will, I don't trust the Childrens welfare department. But what is a safer way In Thailand?

Edited October 11, 2017 by MikeyIdea

[SpudIslander]

I have a 8 year old son with a Thai lady. She is a great mother but terrible with finances. I have bought motorcycles and cars for her over the years and she shortly goes out and borrows money against them privately at extremely unfavourable interest rates. Then she can't repay the debt and either I pay for the debt or she loses the asset. Our son has my name on his Thai birth certificate. I have the DNA certificate as a match as father and son. He has a Canadian citizenship and Canadian Passport although he has never been to Canada. I have 2 questions:

1. In the case of real estate property in Thailand, can I buy a property in Thailand under his name in trust and situate it so that it cannot be borrowed upon nor sold until he reaches 25 years of age?

2. From what I have read above, is it as simple as my son, his mother, myself and all the documents I have mentioned show up to the Amphur and they will grant or recognize me as being the father?  

[MikeyIdea]

7 hours ago, SpudIslander said:

I have a 8 year old son with a Thai lady. She is a great mother but terrible with finances. I have bought motorcycles and cars for her over the years and she shortly goes out and borrows money against them privately at extremely unfavourable interest rates. Then she can't repay the debt and either I pay for the debt or she loses the asset. Our son has my name on his Thai birth certificate. I have the DNA certificate as a match as father and son. He has a Canadian citizenship and Canadian Passport although he has never been to Canada. I have 2 questions:

1. In the case of real estate property in Thailand, can I buy a property in Thailand under his name in trust and situate it so that it cannot be borrowed upon nor sold until he reaches 25 years of age?

2. From what I have read above, is it as simple as my son, his mother, myself and all the documents I have mentioned show up to the Amphur and they will grant or recognize me as being the father?  

A few things - Birth certificate has no legal meaning in Thailand. Court legitimization Scenario: DNA will only be necessary if mother oppose that you get shared custody, Amphur legitimization Scenario: DNA will only be necessary if mother or child oppose that you get shared custody, foreign citizenships and custody in other countries are irrelevant in your case

 

Land in childs name

1) You can by law buy property directly in the childs name as long as there is no debt on it (cannot give responsibility to child).

2) Trusts are not valid but you don't need one.

3) Land owned by a child cannot be borrowed on legally (the debt cannot be registered at the back of the land title deed). The golden rule is that it's easy to give to a minor but only a court decision can take away again

4) Borrow money with land as security is common also without registering it (the lender demands to keep the original title deed). That is also illegal if land owner is a minor

5) Make sure that both you and mother sign original buy / sell agreement at the amphur

6) Keep the land title deed and the original buy / sell agreement in a safe place where the mother cannot get to it

7) Age of majority is 20 in Thailand. I see no way to write any agreement when child is a minor which locks his assets until after majority (to yes, after..)

8) A few land offices refuse to make the transfer (I have heard Hua Hin and Chiang Mai), the vast majority do though

9) If land office refuses, then mummy and you can go to Juvenile Court and get a court order (by mutual agreement) that

a) mother and father agree to give land to the child 

b) mother shall transfer to child within xx date.

I really doubt a land office still would refuse. They know that court order can be enforced 

10) If land office still refuses: Back to court and 2 options
a) Request asset locked down based on (imminent) risk mummy would mortgage it. Juvenile can order but they will normally not do it only based on history evidence. Need (imminent) risk
b)  This path is easy: There is a court order (by mutual agreement) that mother shall transfer asset to child by xx date. She couldn't do it so back to Juvenile court to confirm enforcement within 1 year of stated transfer date. Then petition central Juvenile court to enforce -> assets are easy to enforce because there is no doubt it's good for the child. Gromm Bangkapp Kadii - don't know what that translates to, Department of court order enforcement??? They'll get the transfer done unless there is a debt registered at the back of the land title deed

Amphur legitimization of an 8 year old

2) Yes, it is that easy. Well, you'll have to pay a hundred baht or so and it will take a few hours

 

Michael

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by MikeyIdea

[MikeyIdea]

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 9:14 AM, Kenny202 said:

Ridiculously they consider a child 7yo old enough to point at the dad and confirm the father

Think of it, the law is common sense. IMO, Thai juvenile and marriage laws (and in Buddhist countries in general) are much more common sense than Western interpretations of common sense

The law is there to protect the child: The mother confirms dad and the child simply confirms if he likes him or not. Because if he doesn't, something whatever that is, require further confirmation is required => go to court. Court does not see its responsibility only as confirm and legitimize. Sure they do legitimize in 100% of the cases but they also confirm if there is more they need to do.

The question: Why don't you marry the mother that they always ask is not there to help a Thai ripping of another western man... The other questions they ask, met by the western thinking: Why don't you get on and do your job instead. Sigh, it is all there to determine if they, in the best interest of the child, need to do more

 

Marriage: Marry in Christian countries and traditionally... (Thank God Christians finally realise how ridiculous that was so it is changing now) also assets from before bride and bridegroom even met was shared by default

American justice: Divorce and man had to pay alimony to ex wife for the rest of her life

Adultery: Mother commit adultery and her moral was so low that the best for the childs future was that father by law got sole custody when divorce was processed - changed now

Custody: Mother and father divorce and mother was always highly favoured

 

One Thai Juvenile court judge I talked to laughed openly when we talked about this. 

I don't know Kenny, I have studied Thai Juvenile law and I find it much more common sense than Western interpretation. Western interpretation is changing toward where Thai (Asian Buddhist) interpretation has been a long time

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by MikeyIdea

[scorecard]

On 10/13/2017 at 9:16 AM, MikeyIdea said:

A few things - Birth certificate has no legal meaning in Thailand. Court legitimization Scenario: DNA will only be necessary if mother oppose that you get shared custody, Amphur legitimization Scenario: DNA will only be necessary if mother or child oppose that you get shared custody, foreign citizenships and custody in other countries are irrelevant in your case

 

Land in childs name

1) You can by law buy property directly in the childs name as long as there is no debt on it (cannot give responsibility to child).

2) Trusts are not valid but you don't need one.

3) Land owned by a child cannot be borrowed on legally (the debt cannot be registered at the back of the land title deed). The golden rule is that it's easy to give to a minor but only a court decision can take away again

4) Borrow money with land as security is common also without registering it (the lender demands to keep the original title deed). That is also illegal if land owner is a minor

5) Make sure that both you and mother sign original buy / sell agreement at the amphur

6) Keep the land title deed and the original buy / sell agreement in a safe place where the mother cannot get to it

7) Age of majority is 20 in Thailand. I see no way to write any agreement when child is a minor which locks his assets until after majority (to yes, after..)

8) A few land offices refuse to make the transfer (I have heard Hua Hin and Chiang Mai), the vast majority do though

9) If land office refuses, then mummy and you can go to Juvenile Court and get a court order (by mutual agreement) that

a) mother and father agree to give land to the child 

b) mother shall transfer to child within xx date.

I really doubt a land office still would refuse. They know that court order can be enforced 

10) If land office still refuses: Back to court and 2 options
a) Request asset locked down based on (imminent) risk mummy would mortgage it. Juvenile can order but they will normally not do it only based on history evidence. Need (imminent) risk
b)  This path is easy: There is a court order (by mutual agreement) that mother shall transfer asset to child by xx date. She couldn't do it so back to Juvenile court to confirm enforcement within 1 year of stated transfer date. Then petition central Juvenile court to enforce -> assets are easy to enforce because there is no doubt it's good for the child. Gromm Bangkapp Kadii - don't know what that translates to, Department of court order enforcement??? They'll get the transfer done unless there is a debt registered at the back of the land title deed

Amphur legitimization of an 8 year old

2) Yes, it is that easy. Well, you'll have to pay a hundred baht or so and it will take a few hours

 

Michael

 

 

 

 

Just a quick comment regarding things at the Amphur office. Both my Thai son and his close friend encountered difficulties at the local Amphur office (different offices) when they got divorced. In One case the amphur officer insisted that it's the law that the husband must provide a settlement which includes house and land (debt free) plus a cash settlement of 200,000Baht. The second case the amphur officer insisted it's the law that the husband must give the wife 500,000Baht cash plus gold. (My son told me later that he tried to get the divorce document at another amphur office because his local office had a long-term reputation for interfering in personal matters, but the other amphur office wouldn't process the divorce document because not in their district.)  (In my son's case, his first name is very Thai but his family name is very western and it was clear the officer was taking the 'western' connection into account in her insistence that the law says house and land and big money.)

 

My son refused to agree with the claims of the amphur officer and called a lawyer friend who indicated clearly that there was no such law. My son asked the lawyer to speak to the amphur officer but the officer refused to take the phone. Son then put the phone on speakerphone and asked his lawyer friend to state again that there is no such law. Lawyer then asked the amphur lady on what section of the law was she basing her insistence that the husband had to (by law) give a settlement of house and land and 200,000Baht cash. Initial silence then another amphur officer whispered something to the first amphur lady who then said aloud 'ohh that law has just been cancelled'.

 

Different case - another of my son's Thai buddies (a look krueng young man , obviously part western) went to the local amphur office with his Thai wife for both of them to make their wills, at this time both would have been about 30 years old).

 

Both husband and wife had concerns about what the amphur officer was saying about the law relating to bequeathing property and cash to others. Example: the officer tried to insist that, by Thai law, 50% of all available assets must be bequeathed to a parent or jointly to both parents. 

 

Husband and wife made an excuse to abort making the wills and contacted a close trusted relative who is a lawyer who indicated there was no such law. A week later the lawyer went with them back to the amphur office. Again the amphur office tried to insist it was the law to bequeath 50% of all available assets to a parent or jointly to both parents. Lawyer then revealed who he was and asked the amphur officer for the section and clause number of the law. Officer then started to say 'never mind that, what do you want to put in your wills'.

 

Lawyer then closely supervised what was in the documents and at one point insisted that the officer change the words because the words in one paragraph conflicted with another paragraph.  

 

I fully realize the case at hand in this thread is quite different but my intention is to highlight that some amphur staff will make claims about various laws and in reality they have no knowledge whatever of what they are talking about. Beware. 

Edited October 24, 2017 by scorecard

[Kenny202]

Ive had that attitude from every country Amphur office Ive been too. Its starts when you walk in the door they look at you like you just farted. Usually about 6 staff...most on facebook or playing computer games. Boss reading the paper. Most unhelpful Bstrds I have ever seen. And they do all that stuff as fob off tactics...ie go away and leave us alone. Its not only reserved for farang either, they treat their own people like dirt. All sit their dog faced. They made us do a round trip of 6 hours, in the heat with a newborn son because they couldn't help us out the tiniest bit.

 

They all have no idea of current laws or rules....nor do they care. And if you dare question anything, it becomes a smarty pants competition where they can't back down and lose face. I hate to generalise but this has been my experience. A bit like government workers back home many years ago when it was impossible for them to be fired and they all actually forgot they were working for the people, paid by the people. Not the other way around.

 

As for giving the woman cash and cars and god knows what else...she had probably already raped the guy financially for all he had. Then had her hand out for more. And even if he paid it she would still be hard done by. How do poor people become so greedy selfish and entitled?   

Edited October 25, 2017 by Kenny202

[scorecard]

On 10/10/2017 at 4:27 PM, offset said:

In Thailand is there any other way of stopping the mother getting control of you Child's money when you die

 

I'm aware of a case where the mother is unreliable with money or assets so the Thai father put in his will that his daughter inherits 80% of his assets (land / property / vehicles / investments / cash etc.) but if father is deceased cash cannot taken from the bank or used without a document signed by three trusted friends who in reality barely know each other and none of the 3 are relatives of either side of the family. The will also indicates which of the three trusted friends must hold all related documents and who is must be passed to if the holder dies.

 

I'm told it was accepted into the fathers' will.

Edited October 25, 2017 by scorecard

[scorecard]

3 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

Ive had that attitude from every country Amphur office Ive been too. Its starts when you walk in the door they look at you like you just farted. Usually about 6 staff...most on facebook or playing computer games. Boss reading the paper. Most unhelpful Bstrds I have ever seen. And they do all that stuff as fob off tactics...ie go away and leave us alone. Its not only reserved for farang either, they treat their own people like dirt. All sit their dog faced. They made us do a round trip of 6 hours, in the heat with a newborn son because they couldn't help us out the tiniest bit.

 

They all have no idea of current laws or rules....nor do they care. And if you dare question anything, it becomes a smarty pants competition where they can't back down and lose face. I hate to generalise but this has been my experience. A bit like government workers back home many years ago when it was impossible for them to be fired and they all actually forgot they were working for the people, paid by the people. Not the other way around.

 

As for giving the woman cash and cars and god knows what else...she had probably already raped the guy financially for all he had. Then had her hand out for more. And even if he paid it she would still be hard done by. How do poor people become so greedy selfish and entitled?   

 

"...treat their own people like dirt..."

 

Seen this too, female Thai member of friends' outer family went into amphur office to fix a basic document and was spoken to rudely and loudly. A minute later on the of the amphur staff came running over to greet her friend and said to the amphur staff 'this is doctor (mor) xxxxxxx', she is the person who wrote the popular books about xxxxxx, we went to prathom together'.

 

Attitudes changed quickly with deep wais all around and with attempts to ignore the 'Q' number she was holding and take her to the head of the 'Q'.

 

Doctor xxxxx insisted she would wait her turn and then continued her conversation with several local women, mostly in aprons or other working clothes.  She went one further, when the next number was called and the local woman stood up, the Doctor held her hand and escorted her to the counter and said 'please take care of my friend'.

 

To be fair I've also seen excellent service at government offices.

Edited October 25, 2017 by scorecard

[Kenny202]

2 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

I'm aware of a case where the mother is unreliable with money or assets so the Thai father put in his will that his daughter inherits 80% of his assets (land / property / vehicles / investments / cash etc.) but if father is deceased cash cannot taken from the bank or used without a document signed by three trusted friends who in reality barely know each other and none of the 3 are relatives of either side of the family. The will also indicates which of the three trusted friends must hold all related documents and who is must be passed to if the holder dies.

 

I'm told it was accepted into the fathers' will.

Thats very interesting...because I believe in Thai law it is impossible to bequeath funds in trust. This could be a good way around it but I bet it cost some coin in legal fees to set up

[blackcab]

1 hour ago, Kenny202 said:

Thats very interesting...because I believe in Thai law it is impossible to bequeath funds in trust. This could be a good way around it but I bet it cost some coin in legal fees to set up

 

If challenged that setup would be dissolved. It has the effect of being a trust, which is specifically disallowed in Thai law.