Britain 'prepares for war with North Korea' while 'new carrier could be rushed into service'

[Krataiboy]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

Some of you people better start reading up on the actual History of US-British relationships as well as how Nato works.

 

The UK is no lapdog for America and the co-operation between the US and Britain during WWII was excellent.  The war could not have been won without the expertise of  British intelligence and the will to survive constant bombardment until America entered the War. Most Americans have a great deal of respect for the British, Unfortunately, the British on this board seem to be devoid of any respect for much of  anything are constantly trying to make America responsible for everything that is wrong in the World. One poster in another threat actually wishes for an attack on America.

 

Regarding NKorea, should NK attack America or is Allies- Nato is triggered- an attack on one is an attack on all. If you don't like this you might want to write to your MP and advocate Britain's withdrawal from Nato.

 

Interesting how people on this  board appear to favor NKorea, a country that puts listening devices in its citizens homes so it can hear any dissent; a country that sends its people to concentration camps and works them until death; a country that has violated the Korean Armistice thousands of times (which was also signed by the UK as a major participant); and also a country that  kills its opposition abroad as well as using its diplomatic cover to sell drugs and counterfeit currency.  Shall the UK allow NKorea to sell its nuclear technology to radical islamic terrorists so they can set off a nuclear explosion in London- there are plenty of radicals in the Uk and it appears there are plenty of no go zones where British citizens are not allowed in their own country. America didn't issue them Visa to enter the UK but apparently a succession of British Governments did.

 

Instead of making the argument about why America is always at fault in the World- I again suggest you think through the consequences of allowing a rogue country like NKorea to possess nuclear weapons and continue to threaten the World with them.

You are one who appears to need a history lesson.  A quick glance at the US's post-war record of hegemonic aggression covering most of the world's continent should, I imagine, speak for itself.

 

The argument is not about whether North Korea is a "rogue" country - a perjorative expression dreamed up by the White House to demonise for countries earmarked on its notorious hit list for regime change.

 

The same words were used and the same war drums were beating on both sides of the Atlantic shortly before we Brits stupidly allowed ourselves to be drawn into the disastrous dismantling of Iraq - a heinous war crime according to former UN secretary general Kofi Anan - and Libya, a folly which awoke the Kraken of the Islamic State and created the greatest refugee crisis of modern times.

 

North Korea is a living hell largely because of the disproportionate amount spent on defence.  Its leaders have learned the lessons of history and clearly don't intend to allow themselves to be wiped off the map by a superior military power - as they almost were more than 60 years ago thanks to brutal US carpet bombing which destroyed much of the country's infrastructure and killed massive numbers of innocent civilians.

 

Kim Jong Un has no intention of becoming another Saddam Hussein or Muhammar Gaddafi courtesy of the only nuclear power to have actually used atomic weapons - not once, but twice. Everything Trump is saying and doing right now, shunning the back channels of diplomacy and ignoring the saner voices among his experienced advisers, seems calculated to feed North Korean paranoia and reinforce the determination to retain a nuclear deterrent.

 

Trump, unless he really wants to go down as the President whose ego destroyed the planet, needs to swallow his pride, tone down the rhetoric and insults and let not the dogs of war but peace emissaries off the leash. Or maybe, unlike the rest of us, he already has his own personal fall-out shelter provisioned and ready.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Krataiboy

[anto]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

And do tell- what is that agenda.  While in Korea in the US military I actually saw the intelligence reports on a daily basis. I am well aware of the NKorea military capability and its use of human targets to test entry in the South along the neutral zone.  I am also  aware that NKorea has agents in SKorea and other places in the World doing the bidding of a rogue state.

Was everything I saw manufactured and if so by whom.

 

I was dead set against the Vietnam War; America's entry into Iraq and Afghanistan and Syria.

However, I believe what I see with my own eyes. NKorea has nuclear weapons and could well have the ability to deliver these weapons to both the mainland US and Europe.  They certainly have the wherewithal to sell off the technology to whomever has the money.

 

Is it possible that Donald Trump would welcome a strike by NKorea so he can strike back and destroy the country.  It is possible- but I seriously doubt that the US military Command would ever advocate or encourage such thinking. They above everyone else know full well the cost in lives and treasure such a war would generate.

 

Regarding the UK- I will never understand why Tony Blair entered the Iraq war unless he was fooled by poor intelligence supplied by America. There is a lot of unanswered questions behind the whole 9/11 situation and  its aftermath to include years of war. Americans are generally tired of war and not having universal healthcare and other necessities  because the budget is so slanted towards the military, That would be the subject of another thread.

 

However, unless someone can show me evidence that the whole NKorea situation is a smokescreen for some other agenda- I have to believe that NKorea is a clear and present danger to the World. Prove me wrong.

 

 

 

 

America /USA has proved to be the Worlds number one  Warmonger since after  WW2 .

Edited October 9, 2017 by anto

[IAMHERE]

1 minute ago, anto said:

America /USA has proved to be the Worlds number one  Warmonger since after  WW2 .

Not a pleasant job but somebody has got to be the one, better the USA than Russia.

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, Thaidream said:

And do tell- what is that agenda.  While in Korea in the US military I actually saw the intelligence reports on a daily basis. I am well aware of the NKorea military capability and its use of human targets to test entry in the South along the neutral zone.  I am also  aware that NKorea has agents in SKorea and other places in the World doing the bidding of a rogue state.

Was everything I saw manufactured and if so by whom.

 

I was dead set against the Vietnam War; America's entry into Iraq and Afghanistan and Syria.

However, I believe what I see with my own eyes. NKorea has nuclear weapons and could well have the ability to deliver these weapons to both the mainland US and Europe.  They certainly have the wherewithal to sell off the technology to whomever has the money.

 

Is it possible that Donald Trump would welcome a strike by NKorea so he can strike back and destroy the country.  It is possible- but I seriously doubt that the US military Command would ever advocate or encourage such thinking. They above everyone else know full well the cost in lives and treasure such a war would generate.

 

Regarding the UK- I will never understand why Tony Blair entered the Iraq war unless he was fooled by poor intelligence supplied by America. There is a lot of unanswered questions behind the whole 9/11 situation and  its aftermath to include years of war. Americans are generally tired of war and not having universal healthcare and other necessities  because the budget is so slanted towards the military, That would be the subject of another thread.

 

However, unless someone can show me evidence that the whole NKorea situation is a smokescreen for some other agenda- I have to believe that NKorea is a clear and present danger to the World. Prove me wrong.

 

 

 

 

Nicely put!

 

I largely agree with your analysis. I think NK was helped by Russian engineers post Gorbachev. So they have some responsibility.

 

For me, a United Korea, just like a United Vietnam and Germany United is the way to go. BUT NOT WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS IN TACT. I have already given my ideas...

[Thaidream]

Here we go again- another person who is trying to distort history- using rhetoric that actually sounds like it is coming from NKorea and has no real knowledge of the workings of the Us military or anything close to it.  I won't defend the use of American power in the World as long as you don't try and defend the British Empire which enslaved millions and has a racist past- so let's not go there

 

We may however agree on one thing- Donald Trump is a poor President and a poor representative of America. However, Donald Trump cannot start a war on his own but he can certainly raise the stakes by his undisciplined rhetoric. However, he is surrounded by American Generals' who well know the actual situation and know full well the consequences of starting a war. There are also wiser minds in the US Congress who can and will exercise their will to stop an undeclared war.

 

Having said all that- the issue remains the same- what is the World going to do about NKorea or shall the World do nothing and let NKorea expand its nuclear arsenal; possibly develop intercontinental ballistic missiles or sell a nuclear warhead to a radical islamic group who decides that the UK has harmed the image of Islam and then decides to set it off in London.

 

If you are British and do not like what your government is doing- as I said before write to your MP and ask that the UK withdraw from Nato.  However, I have yet to hear a rational response and a plan to avoid a confrontation with NKorea other than dismissive insults and a distortion of history. 

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Here we go again- another person who is trying to distort history- using rhetoric that actually sounds like it is coming from NKorea and has no real knowledge of the workings of the Us military or anything close to it.  I won't defend the use of American power in the World as long as you don't try and defend the British Empire which enslaved millions and has a racist past- so let's not go there

 

We may however agree on one thing- Donald Trump is a poor President and a poor representative of America. However, Donald Trump cannot start a war on his own but he can certainly raise the stakes by his undisciplined rhetoric. However, he is surrounded by American Generals' who well know the actual situation and know full well the consequences of starting a war. There are also wiser minds in the US Congress who can and will exercise their will to stop an undeclared war.

 

Having said all that- the issue remains the same- what is the World going to do about NKorea or shall the World do nothing and let NKorea expand its nuclear arsenal; possibly develop intercontinental ballistic missiles or sell a nuclear warhead to a radical islamic group who decides that the UK has harmed the image of Islam and then decides to set it off in London.

 

If you are British and do not like what your government is doing- as I said before write to your MP and ask that the UK withdraw from Nato.  However, I have yet to hear a rational response and a plan to avoid a confrontation with NKorea other than dismissive insults and a distortion of history. 

Too many riddles

 

What precisely do you disagree with

 

I want a United, nuclear weapons free, imperialist free Korea.

 

This may take a surgical strike and that will require care and diplomacy. Ask Merkel to sort the buggers out!

[boomerangutang]

2 hours ago, OMGImInPattaya said:

I'm not sure what the Soviets and WWII has to do with the N. Korean's invasion of the South and the resulting war some 5 or 6 years later. 

Whatever the case, I just think we need to go in and clean-up the mess on the Korean peninsula once and for all.

Were that it was that easy - to just rain down ten billion $$'s of missiles, and then trot on in to clean up the mess.

The US has a checkered history of wanting 'quick in, quick out, job done' solutions - which don't work.  Didn't work in Korean war. Didn't work in VN or Iraq II.   Questionable whether US meddling did more harm than good in Chile, Nicaragua, Guatemala or most other Latin-American countries.   

One big lesson that the US still hasn't learned:   Superior weaponry doesn't = success.  More often than not, a determined adversary will not fold under attack by superior weaponry.  Trump doesn't understand that, and it will prove to be one of the most tarnished legacies of his disfunctional presidency.  

[dogpatch55]

7 hours ago, colinneil said:

 

Any person in the UK government with even half a brain, will tell Trump and co to get stuffed.

Let the US arms manufacturers go it alone.

Too many British lives were lost because of lies in 2003.

None of this tory government has even half a brain, and none of them has the balls to tell Trump to get stuffed!

[OMGImInPattaya]

34 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Well I'm not going to write the history here.

 

But, in an effort to force the Japanese to capitulate at the end of WW2, the Americans invited the Soviets to drive down Manchuria and the Korean Peninsula as far as the 38th parallel. At the end of the war a communist sympathising North Korea was the result. Their aim was always to reunite the country, free from imperialist oppression. The Korean War leads on from that. Similar to Vietnam situation IMHO. Watch out for Korcong infiltration, and make sure the American Embassy has a helipad on the roof!

 

Please, read some history ?

Maybe you need better sources than Pravda and the Socialist Worker.

[jenny2017]

Imagine, there's a war and all of the soldiers are losers. 

 

   Let big Trump go in alone.........

Edited October 9, 2017 by jenny2017

[OMGImInPattaya]

5 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

Were that it was that easy - to just rain down ten billion $$'s of missiles, and then trot on in to clean up the mess.

The US has a checkered history of wanting 'quick in, quick out, job done' solutions - which don't work.  Didn't work in Korean war. Didn't work in VN or Iraq II.   Questionable whether US meddling did more harm than good in Chile, Nicaragua, Guatemala or most other Latin-American countries.   

One big lesson that the US still hasn't learned:   Superior weaponry doesn't = success.  More often than not, a determined adversary will not fold under attack by superior weaponry.  Trump doesn't understand that, and it will prove to be one of the most tarnished legacies of his disfunctional presidency.  

Tell that to Saddam Hussain and Mullah Omar and the Taliban. If the political will is there, taking out these rogue regimes is a piece of cake. It's when elite political opinion is divided that problems develop. The other problem is post-conflict trying to install 21st Century democracies on basically 14th Century societies. It can't  and shouldn't be done.

 

In this case, we already have a fairly advanced democracy and economically developed country to work with, South Korea, and they should be able to reconstitute the pieces of their united country with only limited (primarily security) assistance from the U.S.

[Thaidream]

The History of  WW2 and the Korean War and others have been written.  It is the interpretation of that History by so many that defies logic. However, the final history of 9/11; Iraq and Syria and others in the Middle East has not been finalized because the war continues.

 

We can wax back and forth about America's responsibilities in Vietnam and after that and I mostly agree that American power during that era has been misdirected.  Shall we throw in the Flaklands and get started on whether the UK was being imperialistic or merely exercising its sovereign rights. Every country has good and 'bad' history.

 

The issue remains NKorea and what  should America and the rest of the World do about it. We can all do nothing and let them have their nuclear weapons and continue to starve its people until they get 100 or maybe 1000.  NKorea has a history of attacking SCore; murdering its dissidents and other outrageous acts.  I  know for a fact that America has been very patient with NKorea -even after they seized a US ship in International Waters;  even after penetrating the neutral zone and killing US military; even after sinking a SKorea vessel in international waters; even after cyber attacks on Us business; even after spreading drugs throughout the World .

I'd have to say patience is now getting pretty thin or shall the US simply ignore it all?

[baboon]

Not feigning outrage at behaviour you yourselves are up to would be a start.

[jenny2017]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The History of  WW2 and the Korean War and others have been written.  It is the interpretation of that History by so many that defies logic. However, the final history of 9/11; Iraq and Syria and others in the Middle East has not been finalized because the war continues.

 

We can wax back and forth about America's responsibilities in Vietnam and after that and I mostly agree that American power during that era has been misdirected.  Shall we throw in the Flaklands and get started on whether the UK was being imperialistic or merely exercising its sovereign rights. Every country has good and 'bad' history.

 

The issue remains NKorea and what  should America and the rest of the World do about it. We can all do nothing and let them have their nuclear weapons and continue to starve its people until they get 100 or maybe 1000.  NKorea has a history of attacking SCore; murdering its dissidents and other outrageous acts.  I  know for a fact that America has been very patient with NKorea -even after they seized a US ship in International Waters;  even after penetrating the neutral zone and killing US military; even after sinking a SKorea vessel in international waters; even after cyber attacks on Us business; even after spreading drugs throughout the World .

I'd have to say patience is now getting pretty thin or shall the US simply ignore it all?

 

North Korea spreading drugs around the world?  They did bring a lot of meth to China, but around the world?

[Grouse]

14 minutes ago, OMGImInPattaya said:

Maybe you need better sources than Pravda and the Socialist Worker.

 

17 minutes ago, OMGImInPattaya said:

Maybe you need better sources than Pravda and the Socialist Worker.

Oh dear! You want to challenge me to an erudite discussion on, say 1945 to 1955 global history? You think I'm left wing? Let's just say that you are incorrect and out of your depth ?

[Machiavelli]

Initially brought my popcorn  so I can have a chew and read the TV "experts". Now I feel should throw in my two cents. There is going to be no war! Everyone with functional gears knows this. The stakes are too high. 

[midas]

12 minutes ago, jenny2017 said:

 

North Korea spreading drugs around the world?  They did bring a lot of meth to China, but around the world?

Certainly not on the same scale as the CIA

[jenny2017]

And the insanity never ends...........

 

       The United Kingdom has secretly started drawing up plans for war with North Korea, The Daily Mail has revealed. British Armed Forces officials have been asked to outline plans for how the UK would respond if war broke out with Kim Jong Un's regime. One course of action could be to deploy HMS Queen Elizabeth, Britain's £3 billion ($3.9 billion) aircraft carrier, alongside 12 F-35B fighter jets. "We have plenty of ships to send... the Type-45 destroyers, the Type-23 frigates," a senior Whitehall source said. "Britain's new aircraft carrier could be pressed into service early if things turn south."

Not so secretly any more, me thinks

 "Pressed into service?" Like the poor soldiers?

Who'd like to fight in North Korea?  

Edited October 9, 2017 by jenny2017

[Thaidream]

The U2 shot down over Russia was on a spy mission. The USS Pueblo seized by the Koreans was on a spy mission but it was seized in International waters. I have already outlined other actions NKorea has taken against the Us and S Korea.  US and other intelligence agencies have documented that N Korean diplomats carry illegal drug as well as counterfeit currency in its diplomatic pouch.

Regardless ,  please do tell me why the US and the World should simply ignore NKorea's nuclear arsenal when NKorea has show in the past that it murders its own citizens but also acts out by kidnaping  other people and also murdering outside its borders.

 

Based upon the isolationist attitude of some people on this topic- maybe the US should completely withdraw all its forces from Europe and let the Europeans provide their own defense. Instead of Europeans sitting on Thailand' s beaches and drinking beer, they can join their armed forces and be deployed to the Russian border.

[baboon]

11 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The U2 shot down over Russia was on a spy mission. The USS Pueblo seized by the Koreans was on a spy mission but it was seized in International waters. I have already outlined other actions NKorea has taken against the Us and S Korea.  US and other intelligence agencies have documented that N Korean diplomats carry illegal drug as well as counterfeit currency in its diplomatic pouch.

Regardless ,  please do tell me why the US and the World should simply ignore NKorea's nuclear arsenal when NKorea has show in the past that it murders its own citizens but also acts out by kidnaping  other people and also murdering outside its borders.

 

Based upon the isolationist attitude of some people on this topic- maybe the US should completely withdraw all its forces from Europe and let the Europeans provide their own defense. Instead of Europeans sitting on Thailand' s beaches and drinking beer, they can join their armed forces and be deployed to the Russian border.

"The U2 shot down over Russia was on a spy mission."

Denied until the lies could no longer be maintained.

'The USS Pueblo seized by the Koreans was on a spy mission but it was seized in International waters."

Denied until the lies could no longer be maintained. I'm sure there isn't a cat's chance in Hell the US would intercept a hostile spy vessel operating within snatching distance, whether in international waters or not.

 

The rest is just typical neocon bluster I can't be bothered with, with all this "please do tell me why the US and the World should simply ignore NKorea's nuclear arsenal". It isn't the world threatening to wipe them out, it is the present incumbent in the White House. Tell you what, take a back seat on this one and leave it to Brazil, Denmark and Indonesia in that case.

[Thaidream]

I am not denying that both the U2 and the Pueblo were on spy missions and never have.  Governments deny the truth all the time until they are forced to admit the truth. Again, what does this have to do with the current situation in NKorea?

 

I was there- I know what NKorea has and what it is threatening. I am no neocon- I do not hold to that philosophy but I well know when there is a clear and present threat to the World.  Just it ignore it and it will go away. I wish it were true- I would love to say to NKorea- no problem- just keep doing what you are doing and shoot missiles over Japan; threaten the World with a nuclear launch and everything will be fine.

 

You are confusing your dislike of Donald Trump with the reality of the situation. Trump cannot stat a war on his own but you refuse to believe the truth. He can continue to bloviate and cause NKorea to worry if the Us will attack., The Us will not attack because there is no Worldwide consensus that would allow that to happen.  

 

What are you going to do when NKorea sells its nuclear technology to Iran or even worse to radical islam and they bring a nuclear weapon into central London and kill a million people. Probably blame the US because you didn't want to upset NKorea. Get a grip on the reality of the World today and what is at stake. If you have a plan to make it better state it -rather than continue to bloviate in the same manner Trump is bloviating.

[boomerangutang]

1 hour ago, Machiavelli said:

Initially brought my popcorn  so I can have a chew and read the TV "experts". Now I feel should throw in my two cents. There is going to be no war! Everyone with functional gears knows this. The stakes are too high. 

I think there will be, at the least, a concerted preemptive strike by the US. Trump is too eager to let it go.  He sees it as the ultimate reality show. 

 

         It would be like putting hundreds of the choicest chocolate and ice cream sundaes in front of a schoolboy on a hot day, and tell him not to ingest any of it.  It's just too tempting for Trump.   He has zero empathy for people, so that's an added component to the equation.  There are a bunch of other psychological reasons Trump is eager to act - to unleash the most powerful arsenal in world history.   Trump said, less than a year ago, "We've got nuclear weapons, why can't we use them?"

 

As sure as I am that Trump will start the war, I'm sure he won't use nuclear - at least not initially.  He will only use nukes if Kim uses them.  

 

As for timing:  When Mueller's team are ready to release their first tranche of findings, that's when Trump will tell his top brass to go for it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[baboon]

"I am not denying that both the U2 and the Pueblo were on spy missions and never have.  Governments deny the truth all the time until they are forced to admit the truth. Again, what does this have to do with the current situation in NKorea?"

 

Because we are being lied to again? But let me guess; 'It's different this time'.

 

Edited October 9, 2017 by baboon

[Thaidream]

You present an excellent case of why Trump may strike but I seriously wonder if the Generals will obey such an order if they believe Trump is doing it to divert attention from his own problems.  A member of the Us forces does not have to follow an illegal order. There has to be a compelling reason for an American first strike and that is an immediate threat of loss of life .

[Thaidream]

Please outline the lie with specifics- Is Trump lying about the nuclear arsenal?  Are the Americans lying about a clear and present danger?  While I have not been to Korea for a long time when I was there I saw with my own eyes  evidence of many of the things that we are discussing.  Was all the documentation that came from many sources fabricated and a lie and if so by whom and to what end?

[baboon]

Just now, Thaidream said:

Please outline the lie with specifics- Is Trump lying about the nuclear arsenal?  Are the Americans lying about a clear and present danger?  While I have not been to Korea for a long time when I was there I saw with my own eyes  evidence of many of the things that we are discussing.  Was all the documentation that came from many sources fabricated and a lie and if so by whom and to what end?

No, you want action, I want inaction. YOU prove to the common (wo)man in northeast Asia why they and their families may have to be annahilated in the name of a better world, based on your conjecture of what might or might not happen to your country at some undetermined point in the future. I am sure they would be all ears before they started ripping your limbs off.

[OMGImInPattaya]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

 

Oh dear! You want to challenge me to an erudite discussion on, say 1945 to 1955 global history? You think I'm left wing? Let's just say that you are incorrect and out of your depth ?

It seems to me you're the one a little out of your depth but I'm not going to get into a mud-slinging match with you.

[Thaidream]

I don't want any action other than a negotiated solution to a difficult situation- I am not advocating a first strike or any type of military action against N Korea. I am advocating the continuation of United Nations sanctions and the World powers putting pressure on China, Russia, the US and NKorea to sit down and work out a solution to this problem.

 

However, I am aware that Korea has threatened to launch a missile with a nuclear warhead and explode it in the Pacific Ocean. Just let it go is your response- no action. HOw about if NKorea sells a nuclear weapon to an Islamic terrorist group and they explode it in London? Just let it go- no action.  I know you don't feel that way but that is a real threat if NKorea is allowed to keep its arsenal without  any type of regulation.  I wish it wasn't so but it is so and that is the truth. 

[baboon]

25 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I don't want any action other than a negotiated solution to a difficult situation- I am not advocating a first strike or any type of military action against N Korea. I am advocating the continuation of United Nations sanctions and the World powers putting pressure on China, Russia, the US and NKorea to sit down and work out a solution to this problem.

 

However, I am aware that Korea has threatened to launch a missile with a nuclear warhead and explode it in the Pacific Ocean. Just let it go is your response- no action. HOw about if NKorea sells a nuclear weapon to an Islamic terrorist group and they explode it in London? Just let it go- no action.  I know you don't feel that way but that is a real threat if NKorea is allowed to keep its arsenal without  any type of regulation.  I wish it wasn't so but it is so and that is the truth. 

What other bloody options do we have? Great, they fire another missile and we tell them how jolly cross we are. Fine with me. Otherwise it is war.

What if they sell technology to ISIS? Prove it when it happens and let's take it from there. What if a rogue former Soviet General does the same? Shouldn't we bomb a few of the 'stans now, just to be on the safe side?

Dunno why you keep mentioning this mythical dirty bomb going off in London: You might be astonished that I wouldn't wish it on the Harris family in Clearwater, Florida as much as London, Manchester or any other city you might care to mention.

Edited October 9, 2017 by baboon

[oldlakey]

4 hours ago, champers said:

Of course. Too many ships around and there might be accidents.

Two has been one  too many for our North American cousins just lately, but now the 

commanding admiral has been given the elbow, an improved performance can hopefully be looked forward to