An election is inevitable, but will it be free and fair?

[InMyShadow]

Thailand was not at the brink of civil war, bombs did not and will not, stop under military rule, the Transparency International Corruption Perception Index shows that corruption has increased under military rule and economic growth in Thailand has lagged all other large SE Asian economies since the coup.
 
I could speculate on why you prefer repressive military rule to democracy, but won't do so here.

Just a small example. They got rid of the cash cow street stalls in bangkok.. Chose to liberate the footpaths over decades of brown envelopes.. There are many many more examples but you need to do your own research.

Oppressive? That's funny. We are all discussing politics here are we not?

Resist the urge to rubbish the junta on face book and just like the millions of tourists, you wouldn't even know there is a military government.

Hardly repressive

[candide]

19 minutes ago, InMyShadow said:

Just a small example. They got rid of the cash cow street stalls in bangkok.. Chose to liberate the footpaths over decades of brown envelopes.. There are many many more examples but you need to do your own research.

Oppressive? That's funny. We are all discussing politics here are we not?

Resist the urge to rubbish the junta on face book and just like the millions of tourists, you wouldn't even know there is a military government.

Hardly repressive

The various Human Rights organisations have a very different analysis than yours. Read their reports and come back to explain us which facts reported are innacurate. :)

[heybruce]

26 minutes ago, InMyShadow said:

Just a small example. They got rid of the cash cow street stalls in bangkok.. Chose to liberate the footpaths over decades of brown envelopes.. There are many many more examples but you need to do your own research.

Oppressive? That's funny. We are all discussing politics here are we not?

Resist the urge to rubbish the junta on face book and just like the millions of tourists, you wouldn't even know there is a military government.

Hardly repressive

Footpaths?  That's your argument for military rule?  "We lost democracy and basic freedoms but at least the sidewalks are clear."  You would have loved Musolini's Italy, he made the trains run on time.

 

My own research shows they got rid of freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, took the press from mostly free to highly censored, presided over and increase in corruption, etc.

 

Yes, I do consider these things oppressive.

Edited October 12, 2017 by heybruce

[InMyShadow]

Civil War gonna be a lot more oppressive. BECAREFUL what you wish for.

I rest my case.

[InMyShadow]

The various Human Rights organisations have a very different analysis than yours. Read their reports and come back to explain us which facts reported are innacurate. :)

Don't need to I can see the good work at ground level all over thailand.

Seeing vs a report? My eyes win.

Sure there is corruption nobody said there isn't but at least there is progress on decades of land grabbing for one thing something all the previous politicians turned a blind eye to along with greedy claw at the envelope.

No way you are posting from thailand dude you are not aware of any of this.

[heybruce]

12 minutes ago, InMyShadow said:

Civil War gonna be a lot more oppressive. BECAREFUL what you wish for.

I rest my case.

I don't think civil war is inevitable, or even likely, but if it is necessary to end corrupt, repressive, indefinite military rule then....

 

I can't finish the thought, the post would be deleted.

[candide]

8 minutes ago, InMyShadow said:

Don't need to I can see the good work at ground level all over thailand.

Seeing vs a report? My eyes win.

Sure there is corruption nobody said there isn't but at least there is progress on decades of land grabbing for one thing something all the previous politicians turned a blind eye to along with greedy claw at the envelope.

No way you are posting from thailand dude you are not aware of any of this.

All those pesky reports, economic data.....

Edited October 12, 2017 by candide

[Becker]

9 minutes ago, InMyShadow said:

Don't need to I can see the good work at ground level all over thailand.

Seeing vs a report? My eyes win.

Sure there is corruption nobody said there isn't but at least there is progress on decades of land grabbing for one thing something all the previous politicians turned a blind eye to along with greedy claw at the envelope.

No way you are posting from thailand dude you are not aware of any of this.

Personally I've been living here since the early nineties and I don't see the good work you see "at ground level all over Thailand" and neither do I see any difference on the top level. It's all cosmetic.

Besides, when someone claims to have an overview over what goes on at ground level or any other level all over the country my BS meter hits max. 

[heybruce]

16 minutes ago, InMyShadow said:

Don't need to I can see the good work at ground level all over thailand.

Seeing vs a report? My eyes win.

Sure there is corruption nobody said there isn't but at least there is progress on decades of land grabbing for one thing something all the previous politicians turned a blind eye to along with greedy claw at the envelope.

No way you are posting from thailand dude you are not aware of any of this.

"Don't need to I can see the good work at ground level all over thailand."

 

Yet the only example you could come up with was sidewalks in Bangkok. 
 

[InMyShadow]

Personally I've been living here since the early nineties and I don't see the good work you see "at ground level all over Thailand" and neither do I see any difference on the top level. It's all cosmetic.

Besides, when someone claims to have an overview over what goes on at ground level or any other level all over the country my BS meter hits max. 

Sadly most westerners are quite immature believing they can impose there first world versions of democracy onto Thailand.

 

Your green dude, you don't get it. Probably a tourist who never saw the yellow vs red shirt carnage, the blowing up of Central world mall the bombings the seizure of air ports.

 

You talk about oppression but your clueless about recent history and that get my BS Meter in high red zone . Easy to do from the comfort of your 1st world country.

 

Real oppression will come soon after the next elections. Half the Thais will of course not accept the result.. Just wait and see what oppression really is.

 

[Becker]

4 minutes ago, heybruce said:

"Don't need to I can see the good work at ground level all over thailand."

 

Yet the only example you could come up with was sidewalks in Bangkok. 
 

Well, you must admit it's damn impressive. And we haven't even mentioned the lottery!!

[Becker]

1 minute ago, InMyShadow said:

Sadly most westerners are quite immature believing they can impose there first world versions of democracy onto Thailand.

 

Your green dude, you don't get it. Probably a tourist who never saw the yellow vs red shirt carnage, the blowing up of Central world mall the bombings the seizure of air ports.

 

You talk about oppression but your clueless about recent history and that get my BS Meter in high red zone . Easy to do from the comfort of your 1st world country.

 

Real oppression will come soon after the next elections. Half the Thais will of course not accept the result.. Just wait and see what oppression really is.

 

PM me your Thai phone number and I'll call you from my Thai cell phone and I'll give you a free lesson in recent Thai history. Not that I think you'll become any wiser seeing as all you do is parroting other poster.

[InMyShadow]

"Don't need to I can see the good work at ground level all over thailand."
 
Yet the only example you could come up with was sidewalks in Bangkok. 
 

Brucy my boy there is also the reversal of illegal land grabbing and demolshines as I mentioned

Seriously try to keep up and how about due diligence your end?

I have many more examples but your just come across as being rather slow.

[Becker]

Just now, InMyShadow said:

Brucy my boy there is also the reversal of illegal land grabbing and demolshines as I mentioned

Seriously try to keep up and how about due diligence your end?

I have many more examples but your just come across as being rather slow.

He comes across a being slow???

[heybruce]

30 minutes ago, InMyShadow said:

Brucy my boy there is also the reversal of illegal land grabbing and demolshines as I mentioned

Seriously try to keep up and how about due diligence your end?

I have many more examples but your just come across as being rather slow.

You neglected to mention the ending (or temporary hiatus) of the human trafficking led by Gen Manas.  Of course he couldn't have acted without complicity with others high in the Thai military, and the officer investigating the appalling crimes fled the country in fear of his life.

 

The military censors the press, advertises its minor accomplishes and buries its failures.  Thailand moving down in the ranks of the Transparency International Corruption Perception Index matter more to me than the trivial successes that impress you.

 

I take it you are in Bangkok, the favored city.  Perhaps things are acceptable there.  Perhaps the curfews, roadblocks, soldiers on the streets and other acts of repression that lasted many weeks after the coup weren't as obvious in Bangkok.  Perhaps you don't give a damn about the future of Thailand and the Thai people and just want things to be stable and comfortable while you are here.  But the Thai people have experienced democracy and seen it snatched away from them.  The privileged are ok with that, the rest of the country isn't.  Young Thais are wired into the outside world and want what the free world has.  These desires can only be stifled for so long before things get ugly.

 

Are these ideas too abstract for you?  You come across as rather slow; citing minor acts of law enforcement as justification for human rights violations and overthrowing democracy.

[Eric Loh]

42 minutes ago, InMyShadow said:

Brucy my boy there is also the reversal of illegal land grabbing and demolshines as I mentioned

Seriously try to keep up and how about due diligence your end?

I have many more examples but your just come across as being rather slow.

How about some examples of the Park's corruption or perhaps his brother and son alleged corrupt practices and while you on it, some examples of those unusual wealth of the generals. Seriously if you talk corruption, you should not be selective. 

[chainarong]

With 450 Senators hand picked by their peers, go figure.........................................

[JimGant]

Quote

So you think only the privileged should be allowed to vote.  I don't know where to begin with that BS.

Yeah, you're right. The US Founding Fathers were white misogynist racists, whose only desire was to deny certain non-privileged categories a vote, only out of spite. Or, wait a minute, was that only to deny the privilege of voting to those without information (since reading, then, was the primary source of objective information), and thus give the vote only to those privileged with an education and an ability (hopefully) to make informed decisions?

 

Certainly this is pretty anachronistic today, especially regarding the lady folk. But giving everybody over 18 the vote, who can put an X in the signature block and who can watch Duck Dynasty with total belief, is not the best way to get the best people elected. But, in the US, we're long past not opening the voter flood gates to every idiot and wiseman. And we saw the results last November.

 

For Thai democracy, I'm not sure the answer. Appointing some MPs, and not having them subject to a popular vote, could work -- if somehow those appointments were based on merit and not corruption. Sadly, probably a long stretch.

 

 

[heybruce]

4 hours ago, JimGant said:

Yeah, you're right. The US Founding Fathers were white misogynist racists, whose only desire was to deny certain non-privileged categories a vote, only out of spite. Or, wait a minute, was that only to deny the privilege of voting to those without information (since reading, then, was the primary source of objective information), and thus give the vote only to those privileged with an education and an ability (hopefully) to make informed decisions?

 

Certainly this is pretty anachronistic today, especially regarding the lady folk. But giving everybody over 18 the vote, who can put an X in the signature block and who can watch Duck Dynasty with total belief, is not the best way to get the best people elected. But, in the US, we're long past not opening the voter flood gates to every idiot and wiseman. And we saw the results last November.

 

For Thai democracy, I'm not sure the answer. Appointing some MPs, and not having them subject to a popular vote, could work -- if somehow those appointments were based on merit and not corruption. Sadly, probably a long stretch.

"The US Founding Fathers were white misogynist racists..."

 

Yes, quite a few of them were.  You should have included elitist as well; a great many of the provisions of the constitution were to entrench power with the already privileged, much like the military's latest constitution in Thailand.  Remember that by limiting the vote to the males with property the US legitimized slavery and elected the war criminal Andrew Jackson as President.  By expanding the right to vote to all adults government truly became "of the people, by the people, and for the people".  That doesn't make it perfect, just better than any alternative proposed.  Do you have a better idea for government?

 

Try reading a bit yourself, most people have glorified the constitution to mythic levels.  The origins are fascinating, and definitely not mythic.  The debates between Federalists and Republicans in writing, approving and interpreting the Constitution are illuminating.  The Federalist wanted the Presidency to be an elected monarch.  President Thomas Jefferson, a determined Republican (not in the current sense of the name) was determined to weaken the Federalist Constitution (aka, the US Constitution) as much as possible.  However the necessity of a Navy to fight Barbary pirates and the opportunity to double the size of the US with the Louisiana Purchase pushed him into the Federalist, monarchist Presidency direction.  In many other ways the Constitution as we now know it was interpreted and applied very much in a "make it up as you go along" manner.

 

Democracy has its flaws, as does allowing all adults to vote.  However every other system tried is worse.  What Thailand will have after (if) the vote remains to be seen.  If, as I suspect, the military will not hand over government but will pull the strings from behind the scenes, the election of powerless officials will not result in democracy.  That is unfortunate, as bad as democracy is, it is better than anything else.  Especially military rule.

 

 

[brucec64]

6 hours ago, InMyShadow said:

Don't need to I can see the good work at ground level all over thailand.

Seeing vs a report? My eyes win.

Sure there is corruption nobody said there isn't but at least there is progress on decades of land grabbing for one thing something all the previous politicians turned a blind eye to along with greedy claw at the envelope.

No way you are posting from thailand dude you are not aware of any of this.

There has been a limited number of highly publicized actions , such as land reclamation and clearing the footpaths, that have been undertaken, but hardly a change to the systemic corruption in the country. They were basically propaganda actions specifically designed to fool the gullible. Looks like they were effective...

[InMyShadow]

There has been a limited number of highly publicized actions , such as land reclamation and clearing the footpaths, that have been undertaken, but hardly a change to the systemic corruption in the country. They were basically propaganda actions specifically designed to fool the gullible. Looks like they were effective...

I'm a big supporter of the general. I've seen enough of corruption in Thailand and the most corrupt flee the country.

Hopefully the general will continue the clean up for many more years.

[heybruce]

26 minutes ago, InMyShadow said:

I'm a big supporter of the general. I've seen enough of corruption in Thailand and the most corrupt flee the country.

Hopefully the general will continue the clean up for many more years.

It's amazing how oblivious people can make themselves to the corruption in the military.

[kareona]

14 hours ago, WhisperingJack said:

An election is inevitable, but will it be free and fair?

Not a snowballs chance in hell!

Elections are the framework of a democracy and if you look at history it has been shown many times that democracy does not work in an uneducated society.

 

However TIT..............anything could happen

 

You mean...like in the United States?

[kareona]

13 hours ago, Jonnapat said:

iesExpect to see the usual envelopes passed around as the election nears.

Nobody has the power or will to stop vote buying, that's why it will never be 'free and fair's.The fattest envelopes usually win.

The Democrats spend as much money as the 'red' parties and do not win. If the Democtat Party gives an Isaner 2.000 baht he will accept it and vote for Pheu Thai. The whole vote buying story is nonsense. 

[gk10002000]

Well, they gave some dates, but that doesn't mean they will tick to them.  As for fair, well given the Thai mentality and social stratification, and class distinction that is almost caste-like  doubt it will be completely fair. Vote buying is basically allowed and expected.  The different provinces really don't have a representation and representative system similar to the UK or the USA have.   And even if there are elections, the Thai or perhaps more precisely the Thai military, routinely take over and throw out whoever was elected anyway.  I don't see the cycles stopping.  But as the country becomes more populated, and less rural as farm land and stuff slowly gets used up, I don't know.