Trying to unlock Brexit, Britain's May to make offer on EU citizens

[taipeir]

Can't wait for all those millions or was it trillions to start flowing back to the UK coffers so we can open up some new  ( or closed ) hospitals and schools  - or was it all a bad dream ..................

That's not how it works.A bad Brexit will wreck the governnent finances and there will be no extra money for many many years. 

First example , what happens if the city of London is severely damaged , it's a big contributor to government tax coffers.

 

11.5 per cent of government tax revenue.

https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/business/economic-research-and-information/research-publications/Pages/total-tax-2016.aspx

 

 

Another example even more troubling example , if UK borrowing costs go up the government will have no choice but to cut back on many social programs.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/07/21/deficit-climbs-government-borrowing-costs-rise/

 

 

The UK would be caught in a vise,

reducing tax ince but increased inflation, interest rates and thus leading to higher borrowing costs and outgoings.

 

The UK WILL be forced to ramp up interest rates to defend the pound in a bad Brexit scenario.

 

I'm sure people here of a certain vintage have fond memories of the good old days in the 1970s.

 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

If only we had class act like Juncker. 

If only we had not had the referendum in the first place! But we did and now we are in the mess that we are in.

 

We held the referendum and slightly more than 50% of the voters voted leave so the Brexiteers had it.  But what they actually had was never clear.  Yes out of Europe but at what cost?  What will the negotiators be negotiating for?  Lots of bullsh*t by both sides but when it comes down to it we still don't know where we will end up.  Worse than that we (as the voters) have no voice in what will or will not be agreed.  It may be a "hard" Brexit or it may be a "soft" Brexit, we are all in the hands of the government negotiators.

 

Of course in four years time we will have a voice when there is a general election but that will be too late and Brexit will, one way or another, be a done deal and we will be living with the consequences.

[boomerangutang]

What a tangled web politicians weave, particularly when the worship of money takes precedence. 

[vogie]

16 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

If only we had not had the referendum in the first place! But we did and now we are in the mess that we are in.

 

We held the referendum and slightly more than 50% of the voters voted leave so the Brexiteers had it.  But what they actually had was never clear.  Yes out of Europe but at what cost?  What will the negotiators be negotiating for?  Lots of bullsh*t by both sides but when it comes down to it we still don't know where we will end up.  Worse than that we (as the voters) have no voice in what will or will not be agreed.  It may be a "hard" Brexit or it may be a "soft" Brexit, we are all in the hands of the government negotiators.

 

Of course in four years time we will have a voice when there is a general election but that will be too late and Brexit will, one way or another, be a done deal and we will be living with the consequences.

Yes of course in 4 years time you can vote out who you don't like, but I'm afraid we cannot vote out Juncker and the rest of the gravy train. We are/was stuck with Juncker till he decides to go, what a disgrace that man is, but non of the remainers ever mention him, perhaps selective memory?

I believe Mrs May went to Brussels today to try and talk to the EU negotiators, but they are doing their damnest to scuttle any negotiatons and didn't/wouldn't talk to her, they are acting like children.

There is no such thing as a soft brexit, we either leave or not leave, but having one foot in their door is not leaving.

And as for the money we owe, what is it? Nobody knows. Its like going in a car showroom and saying 'I want to buy a car' and the salesmen saying 'ok that'll be £20,000 please, and then you say 'but what do I get for that' and his reply will be, we will tell you tell you that after you've paid. It just doesn't make any sense!

[rockingrobin]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

Yes of course in 4 years time you can vote out who you don't like, but I'm afraid we cannot vote out Juncker and the rest of the gravy train. We are/was stuck with Juncker till he decides to go, what a disgrace that man is, but non of the remainers ever mention him, perhaps selective memory?

I believe Mrs May went to Brussels today to try and talk to the EU negotiators, but they are doing their damnest to scuttle any negotiatons and didn't/wouldn't talk to her, they are acting like children.

There is no such thing as a soft brexit, we either leave or not leave, but having one foot in their door is not leaving.

And as for the money we owe, what is it? Nobody knows. Its like going in a car showroom and saying 'I want to buy a car' and the salesmen saying 'ok that'll be £20,000 please, and then you say 'but what do I get for that' and his reply will be, we will tell you tell you that after you've paid. It just doesn't make any sense!

I dont recall anybody from the vote leave campaign advocate leaving without a deal during the referendum 

[dunroaming]

22 minutes ago, vogie said:

Yes of course in 4 years time you can vote out who you don't like, but I'm afraid we cannot vote out Juncker and the rest of the gravy train. We are/was stuck with Juncker till he decides to go, what a disgrace that man is, but non of the remainers ever mention him, perhaps selective memory?

I believe Mrs May went to Brussels today to try and talk to the EU negotiators, but they are doing their damnest to scuttle any negotiatons and didn't/wouldn't talk to her, they are acting like children.

There is no such thing as a soft brexit, we either leave or not leave, but having one foot in their door is not leaving.

And as for the money we owe, what is it? Nobody knows. Its like going in a car showroom and saying 'I want to buy a car' and the salesmen saying 'ok that'll be £20,000 please, and then you say 'but what do I get for that' and his reply will be, we will tell you tell you that after you've paid. It just doesn't make any sense!

Of course we can't vote out Junker because we won't be in the EU then anyway.  I have always said that the EU is mightily flawed and needs radical change. Obviously if you are out you cannot change anything.  I do agree with your car salesman analogy but that is because we are on the back foot.

 

17 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

I dont recall anybody from the vote leave campaign advocate leaving without a deal during the referendum 

Exactly.  They said that the EU needed us more than we needed them and that negotiating a good deal for the UK would be straightforward and that, is what people voted for.

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

There is no such thing as a soft brexit, we either leave or not leave, but having one foot in their door is not leaving.

Having one foot in the door IS a soft Brexit

[rockingrobin]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Yes of course in 4 years time you can vote out who you don't like, but I'm afraid we cannot vote out Juncker and the rest of the gravy train. We are/was stuck with Juncker till he decides to go, what a disgrace that man is, but non of the remainers ever mention him, perhaps selective memory?

I believe Mrs May went to Brussels today to try and talk to the EU negotiators, but they are doing their damnest to scuttle any negotiatons and didn't/wouldn't talk to her, they are acting like children.

There is no such thing as a soft brexit, we either leave or not leave, but having one foot in their door is not leaving.

And as for the money we owe, what is it? Nobody knows. Its like going in a car showroom and saying 'I want to buy a car' and the salesmen saying 'ok that'll be £20,000 please, and then you say 'but what do I get for that' and his reply will be, we will tell you tell you that after you've paid. It just doesn't make any sense!

The car sales analogy is incorrect. The financial obligations  known when the UK made the commitments. 

Edited October 19, 2017 by rockingrobin

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Having one foot in the door IS a soft Brexit

The options in the referendum were 'leave or stay.' To the best of my knowledge, there wasn't an option to leave the wife and still pay the mortgage.

[SheungWan]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

The options in the referendum were 'leave or stay.' To the best of my knowledge, there wasn't an option to leave the wife and still pay the mortgage.

I guess you are in the leave the wife and do a runner option.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

The options in the referendum were 'leave or stay.' To the best of my knowledge, there wasn't an option to leave the wife and still pay the mortgage.

Leave option always included paying the outstanding fees. Didn't your Brexit leaders told you that, when they urged you to vote? Or didn't you listen the realities?

 

[Orac]

Yes of course in 4 years time you can vote out who you don't like, but I'm afraid we cannot vote out Juncker and the rest of the gravy train. We are/was stuck with Juncker till he decides to go, what a disgrace that man is, but non of the remainers ever mention him, perhaps selective memory?
I believe Mrs May went to Brussels today to try and talk to the EU negotiators, but they are doing their damnest to scuttle any negotiatons and didn't/wouldn't talk to her, they are acting like children.
There is no such thing as a soft brexit, we either leave or not leave, but having one foot in their door is not leaving.
And as for the money we owe, what is it? Nobody knows. Its like going in a car showroom and saying 'I want to buy a car' and the salesmen saying 'ok that'll be £20,000 please, and then you say 'but what do I get for that' and his reply will be, we will tell you tell you that after you've paid. It just doesn't make any sense!

Why are we stuck with Juncker till he decides to go - his term ends in Nov 2019.


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[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, boomerangutang said:

What a tangled web politicians weave, particularly when the worship of money takes precedence. 

...better have precedence for loss of money. UK inflation at 3%.

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Yes of course in 4 years time you can vote out who you don't like, but I'm afraid we cannot vote out Juncker and the rest of the gravy train. We are/was stuck with Juncker till he decides to go, what a disgrace that man is, but non of the remainers ever mention him, perhaps selective memory?

I believe Mrs May went to Brussels today to try and talk to the EU negotiators, but they are doing their damnest to scuttle any negotiatons and didn't/wouldn't talk to her, they are acting like children.

There is no such thing as a soft brexit, we either leave or not leave, but having one foot in their door is not leaving.

And as for the money we owe, what is it? Nobody knows. Its like going in a car showroom and saying 'I want to buy a car' and the salesmen saying 'ok that'll be £20,000 please, and then you say 'but what do I get for that' and his reply will be, we will tell you tell you that after you've paid. It just doesn't make any sense!

Actually no. Signed up for things and then wants to cancel the contract and the obligations. Try a better example rather than the nonsensical one above.

Edited October 19, 2017 by SheungWan

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Actually no. Signed up for things and then wants to cancel the contract and the obligations. Try a better example rather than the nonsensical one above.

Sorry you don't understand it, would drawing a picture help?

[chrissables]

13 hours ago, chickenrunCM said:

It is really very funny that still some UK citizen think, that they not have any oblication to pay, what their goverment signed for. And also they don´t have any clue what are the trading figueres of Great Britan. They trade with Sweden more than with China, they can´t sign any trade contracts until EU will allow this before march 2019. A trade deal needs about 7 to 10 years to be done, and the UK has to do every trade deal new. They dont have any now! 

The EU is for sure not happy about loosing the UK as a member, but we are not unhappy to loose the UK goverment like a subject we have to deal with. 

Before you shout agains the EU you should more worry what strange and useless people are in your UK goverment and acting like little kids with no support of the public. It doesnt matter how will be the outcome 50% of UK citizen will be against the outcome, there is no winner in the UK, only chaos! 

If you really think you just can say no, we not pay, we not talk and we walk away without heavy consequences, you never had a divorce in your family or within your friends. This attitude never works, it only shows the poor quality of your leaders, instead hard working and telling the trues to the UK citizen, what will happened, they telling lies and fairy tales. 

WAKE UP! It´s a divorce, pay your liabilities and try to find a agreement, both sides can live with, but like in a divorce it will not be as good as before you have been a member of the EU, because otherwise all couples would do a divorce, if you get more advantages ...

Pay up! ..........................When they have a quantified figure signed off by an international Accountancy firm.

[smedly]

16 hours ago, chickenrunCM said:

It is really very funny that still some UK citizen think, that they not have any oblication to pay, 

you know what's even funnier - people like you making statements like this without being able to explain why, owe money to whom how much and why, go for it because you'll be the first, your mate Junker Tusk and Barnier haven't been able too.

 

Get ready for the UK to walk because that's what happens next

 

The EEC was great........what went wrong 

[vogie]

12 hours ago, SheungWan said:

I guess you are in the leave the wife and do a runner option.

If my wife had been spending our hard earned money unwisely, had been making very bad decisions like giving some of our money to the next door door neighbour who won't work but still has a better lifestyle than me. Who was drunk most of the time, won't listen to a word I say to her, has the other neighbour making decisions that effect my household, yes I would be very pleased to do a runner.

[rockingrobin]

55 minutes ago, smedly said:

you know what's even funnier - people like you making statements like this without being able to explain why, owe money to whom how much and why, go for it because you'll be the first, your mate Junker Tusk and Barnier haven't been able too.

 

Get ready for the UK to walk because that's what happens next

 

The EEC was great........what went wrong 

The money owed comes from the MFF and RAL, projects in progress and awaiting payment , (which can be due upto 3 years after the MFF)

 

The difficulty with calculating a final figure is determining what monies are due to flow back to the UK  from the projects.The value that would have arisen if the UK had remained in the EU.

Which programs the UK want to remain part of and those it wishes to buy out of. For example the UK has stated it wants to remain in the EU security systems, and I would speculate that it would chose to buy out of the pension obligations.

 

Of course you are correct , the UK could walk away .

[smedly]

2 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

The money owed comes from the MFF and RAL, projects in progress and awaiting payment , (which can be due upto 3 years after the MFF)

 

The difficulty with calculating a final figure is determining what monies are due to flow back to the UK  from the projects.The value that would have arisen if the UK had remained in the EU.

Which programs the UK want to remain part of and those it wishes to buy out of. For example the UK has stated it wants to remain in the EU security systems, and I would speculate that it would chose to buy out of the pension obligations.

 

Of course you are correct , the UK could walk away .

divided by all 28 nations not just the UK

 

The issue is not about the UK having some financial obligations, I think most would agree that it is possible, the real problem is how the demand is being presented (blackmail) and justified (or rather "not justified) and then there is the ridiculous amount, there is simply no way the British people will agree to paying the EU 100b or even 50b Euro and 20b is pushing it, every tax payer in the EU is equally responsible for the EU running costs not just the UK Germany and France.

Edited October 20, 2017 by smedly

[rockingrobin]

31 minutes ago, smedly said:

divided by all 28 nations not just the UK

 

The issue is not about the UK having some financial obligations, I think most would agree that it is possible, the real problem is how the demand is being presented (blackmail) and justified (or rather "not justified) and then there is the ridiculous amount, there is simply no way the British people will agree to paying the EU 100b or even 50b Euro and 20b is pushing it, every tax payer in the EU is equally responsible for the EU running costs not just the UK Germany and France.

The monies have already been committed by all member states but not paid yet

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

IMO May needs to give up the pretense of 'negotiating', as the EU has made it v clear that (at the moment) - it has no intention of negotiating, only dictating.

 

Time to be equally as intransigent and say 'OK, you're dictating the agenda/not even prepared to say what you require to start talking trade - we're out in '19'.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

Time to be equally as intransigent and say 'OK, you're dictating the agenda/not even prepared to say what you require to start talking trade - we're out in '19'.

But that would be wrong. EU wants: Deal of the UK's obligations, deal of EU-UK citizens in each country, deal of the Northern Ireland - Ireland border. All those important negotiations for both sides, before the talk about trade deals can really kick in.

 

It's not that EU doesn't want to have the deals. Those three are prerequisites to start talking about trade deals. 

I'd be happy if the deals could be made as fast as possible and Brexit could happen in 2019.

[dick dasterdly]

4 hours ago, smedly said:

you know what's even funnier - people like you making statements like this without being able to explain why, owe money to whom how much and why, go for it because you'll be the first, your mate Junker Tusk and Barnier haven't been able too.

 

Get ready for the UK to walk because that's what happens next

 

The EEC was great........what went wrong 

Whilst I agree with most of your post, even as a teenager (with no interest in politics) I knew that joining the EEC would result in higher prices....

 

Converting to decimalisation was used an excuse to increase prices, and the promised EEC goal of 'self-sustainability' (IIRC - it was decades ago!) made it even more obvious that prices would increase.

 

And I was right....

[dick dasterdly]

8 minutes ago, oilinki said:

But that would be wrong. EU wants: Deal of the UK's obligations, deal of EU-UK citizens in each country, deal of the Northern Ireland - Ireland border. All those important negotiations for both sides, before the talk about trade deals can really kick in.

 

It's not that EU doesn't want to have the deals. Those three are prerequisites to start talking about trade deals. 

I'd be happy if the deals could be made as fast as possible and Brexit could happen in 2019.

So exactly how much does the EU require financially (with substantiation obviously) and what is the requirement for the North/South Irish border before trade negotiations even BEGIN?

 

May said a long time ago that those EU citizens in the UK would be allowed to stay if UK citizens were given the same opportunity?  Certainly something along those lines, but rejected by the EU who couldn't come up with an excuse at the time - but eventually demanded that EU courts must have dominance over UK courts - and consequently the 'Brits' were being 'difficult' on the subject !

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

So exactly how much does the EU require financially (with substantiation obviously) and what is the requirement for the North/South Irish border before trade negotiations even BEGIN?

 

I don't know. I'm guessing May and her team knows what EU wants. Has she said that she don't know what EU wants?

[SheungWan]

1 minute ago, oilinki said:

I don't know. I'm guessing May and her team knows what EU wants. Has she said that she don't know what EU wants?

The problem for Theresa May is more her own side.

[SheungWan]

54 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Whilst I agree with most of your post, even as a teenager (with no interest in politics) I knew that joining the EEC would result in higher prices....

Converting to decimalisation was used an excuse to increase prices, and the promised EEC goal of 'self-sustainability' (IIRC - it was decades ago!) made it even more obvious that prices would increase.

And I was right....

You are certainly right about having no interest in politics. Decimalisation was in 1971.

[SheungWan]

40 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

So exactly how much does the EU require financially (with substantiation obviously) and what is the requirement for the North/South Irish border before trade negotiations even BEGIN?

May said a long time ago that those EU citizens in the UK would be allowed to stay if UK citizens were given the same opportunity?  Certainly something along those lines, but rejected by the EU who couldn't come up with an excuse at the time - but eventually demanded that EU courts must have dominance over UK courts - and consequently the 'Brits' were being 'difficult' on the subject !

For the forum Hard Brexiteers it is a completely bogus question as they are agitating for the figure zero and no deal at all.

[mfd101]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

IMO May needs to give up the pretense of 'negotiating', as the EU has made it v clear that (at the moment) - it has no intention of negotiating, only dictating.

 

Time to be equally as intransigent and say 'OK, you're dictating the agenda/not even prepared to say what you require to start talking trade - we're out in '19'.

Yes, suicide is the only sensible response to someone arguing with you. Very good. Proceed.