New roof advice

[Sheryl]

Fibre cement

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[Sheryl]

Thanks. I have the rechargeable screwdriver. But they will have to drill screw holes in the metal roof beams...I suppose could try to do that first before bringing up the foil. What about rubber gloves?


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[wayned]

Link to TPI cool tiles giving specs: http://www.tpipolene.co.th/Eng/roof_fibercement.html

[Sheryl]

Thanks, I've seen that and also identified, with the help of the company, a supplier just 45 minutes away. She has to order it in and I have learned not to take the supplying if anything for granted but it looks hopeful.



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[grollies]

33 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Tiles ? ?

Safety harness, go on kwaka, what's funny about that?

[carlyai]

Thanks. I have the rechargeable screwdriver. But they will have to drill screw holes in the metal roof beams...I suppose could try to do that first before bringing up the foil. What about rubber gloves?  

 

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Those new screws have a drill bit on the front end, so you don't need to drill a hole first, just screw it in and it drills the hole first. You need something like Makita screw guns. (I could be corrected on this). Plus a spare battery, that's why I said two. Again could be corrected. Drills with a screw function are not the same as screw guns.  

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EDIT

 

Rubber gloves.

 

I may be incorrect on this, but if they wear thongs, let them, if they don't wear rubber gloves, don't make them. They are used to managing their clothing, if you change what they are used to there's more chance of an accident.

 

Aussie and Canadian management at a big Teak furniture factory (making things for the Japanese emperor etc.) had 700 workers, tried to bring in safety footware and they had more accidents at the sawmill. Went back to thongs and no more (no more than usual) accidents.

It really is amazing to see a huge saw mill and all in thongs.

 

Put the shoes on if you have to but don't worry about the gloves.

 

 

 

Screw drills have a slipping clutch ( is that what you call it?), so they are like the tools that put your car wheels on; when they get tight enough they slip, great for putting in roof screws as you can't overscrew them.

But, I need some expert to comment on this.

[Kwasaki]

3 hours ago, grollies said:

Safety harness, go on kwaka, what's funny about that?

No sweat l couldn't be bothered anyway l think nobody studies sketches or posts with any further thought than RB which is the main subject. 

[carlyai]

No sweat l couldn't be bothered anyway l think nobody studies sketches or posts with any further thought than RB which is the main subject. [emoji23][emoji23][emoji3]

Hi Kwasaki, you are the expert here. No use me commenting on your great drawings as I would add nothing to the discussion.
I look at you're drawings, you're right, not in depth, but it's because I don't know enough about this to comment.

I can comment on a few things because I built my own home/pool etc. but I don't have the indepth knowledge to comment with any real experience in your building field.
I did a bit of research before I put in my RB, so that's why I comment on that.

I have been in the Vocational and Education field for a fair while, that's why I can comment on general things.

You are the expert in this construction, and I'm sure Sheryl takes your advice; she probably needs your advice more now that she is going for the heavier tiles.



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[Kwasaki]

4 hours ago, carlyai said:

Hi Kwasaki, you are the expert here. No use me commenting on your great drawings as I would add nothing to the discussion.
I look at you're drawings, you're right, not in depth, but it's because I don't know enough about this to comment.

I can comment on a few things because I built my own home/pool etc. but I don't have the indepth knowledge to comment with any real experience in your building field.
I did a bit of research before I put in my RB, so that's why I comment on that.

I have been in the Vocational and Education field for a fair while, that's why I can comment on general things.

You are the expert in this construction, and I'm sure Sheryl takes your advice; she probably needs your advice more now that she is going for the heavier tiles.

Thanks but only posted rough sketches and web sites illustrations to show certain components for peeps to know what is being referred to.

Different naming of building components is used by suppliers so confusion is easily set in motion.

 

I'm sure you took in a considerable amount of knowledge during construction of your building projects.

Research is obviously needed if unqualified and doing your own supervision.

Even an Accountant can be taught to lay a brick. 

 

Yeah l did a few seminars for building construction companies new employees.

     

 

If Sheryl is going for the heavier fibre cement roof sheets having seen the roof steelworks from pix posted it will not be a problem.   

There are some long drawn out calculations for steelworks construction but you'd end up in as the picture above.                     

 

Cheers have a good weekend one and all.

 

 

 

[carlyai]

Thanks but only posted rough sketches and web sites illustrations to show certain components for peeps to know what is being referred to.
Different naming of building components is used by suppliers so confusion is easily set in motion.
 
I'm sure you took in a considerable amount of knowledge during construction of your building projects.
Research is obviously needed if unqualified and doing your own supervision.
Even an Accountant can be taught to lay a brick. [emoji3]
 
Yeah l did a few seminars for building construction companies new employees.
   [emoji3]  [emoji23]
 
If Sheryl is going for the heavier fibre cement roof sheets having seen the roof steelworks from pix posted it will not be a problem.   
There are some long drawn out calculations for steelworks construction but you'd end up in as the picture above. [emoji3]                    
 
Cheers have a good weekend one and all.
 
 
 

This could be a pic. of our fearless leader lecturing to the Isaanites. [emoji39] Reeducation for Carl coming soon.

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[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

 

 

...Different naming of building components is used by suppliers so confusion is easily set in motion....

 

 

Research is obviously needed if unqualified and doing your own supervision.

..

 

 

Exactly, and exactly!

 

The supplier of the TPI white tiles got back to me with prices and I am going ahead with tyhat. Will cost me less than half what Bluescope would have, though that is not the deciding factor but rather the great difficulty in getting white  Colorbond.

Meanwhile the Bluescope supplier came back finally with what are supposed to be "specs", consisting solely of:

 

Took him a week, and multiple calls from me, to come up with that. (And I had already told him at the very start that I needed about 300 meters...)

 

Not exactly what I expected ....

 

[Kwasaki]

17 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

The supplier of the TPI white tiles got back to me with prices and I am going ahead with that.

Good,  l think it will better using this product definitely if only for price alone and see if your labour gang is happy using self drilling screws.

 

17 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Took him a week, and multiple calls from me, to come up with that.

A highly detailed spec. 

 

I'm away for 2-3 days but l'll be back   many other guys here can give good advice if needed anyway.

[Sheryl]

Thanks.  Likely to be in something of a holding pattern anyway till the roofing material arrives..plus, bizzarrely for this time of year, it is now raining

 

After 26 pages we are back with what I was planning in my 1st post - white tiles (fibre cement) and an RB!!! 

 

But hardly a waste, I learned a lot and also added in (1) better attic ventilation and (2) eaves filler neither of which I was aware of before.

 

My converstaions with TPI tile provider is going much better thanks to my new ability  to use terms like flashing and generally more understanding of what the issues are. So many, many thanks to everyone.

 

I only wish this forum had existed back when I was having the house built and then dealing with the torrentially leaking roof - would have saved a lot of problems!

[wayned]

I think that you made a good choice using a local supplier so that there is any problems you can go and wreck physical havoc with a baseball bat  rather than going with a supplier afar where you would have to rely on "Trump" tweets.  Since the product is special order I would order 5% over and store it for future  repairs.

 

As far as attaching the RB to the underside of the rafters,  I would screw 1 x 2 lathe to the  underside of the rafters, and then staple the RB to it and the put another 1 x 2 lathe on top of the other, sandwiching the RB between.  I would use the black  flat head self starting screws used to secure plasterboard to metal studs for securing both, however you might have to drill pilot holes in the steel depending on it's thickness.

 

The lathe is cheap, easy to install it will last longer than you before any bugs destroy it if properly treated before installation!  Chewing gum would most likely outlast me!

[Sheryl]

Thanks, Wayned! As an added bonus this supplier speaks English. (I actually speak  do Thai and until this all started I thought I spoke it pretty well.But I have none of the necessary vocabulary for construction etc).

 

Re the RB, what my workers ended up doing is same idea as you propose but instead of wood lath they used those lightweight metal things used for hanging ceilings:

Half of the worker's house (roof 7 x 11 m) done so far took them about 1/2 a day but I expect will go faster now that they have the hang of it. It did require removing and replacing, one by one, the metal ceiling rods that were attached to the roof rafters. Same will be true in my roof.

 

[wayned]

10 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Thanks, Wayned! As an added bonus this supplier speaks English. (I actually speak  do Thai and until this all started I thought I spoke it pretty well.But I have none of the necessary vocabulary for construction etc).

 

Re the RB, what my workers ended up doing is same idea as you propose but instead of wood lath they used those lightweight metal things used for hanging ceilings:

Half of the worker's house (roof 7 x 11 m) done so far took them about 1/2 a day but I expect will go faster now that they have the hang of it. It did require removing and replacing, one by one, the metal ceiling rods that were attached to the roof rafters. Same will be true in my roof.

 

Looks good! I also thought about using metal strips but everything that I do is designed to be installed or reworked by one person, me, and I would need at least 4 arms. 

 

When you install the new roof if you use the vented plastic closeout vents that match the contour of the roof, you can just leave the old fascia board, fit and staple the vents to it and then install a smaller fascia board on top to cover the stapled part of the vent.  I did my house this way, the first fascia board is 1 X 8  painted dark brown.  The vents are dark brown and stapled to it and then the second fascia board, painted light brown, is on top covering the stapled portion of the vent.  It looks good with the contrasting colors and if you were Thai you could use purple and pink!

[Sheryl]

Thanks , will do that - I am considering the solid eaves fillers though (made of an artificial wood, ? cement borad? "mai chala"? ) since I have put in veted eaves boards -- though I am worrying whether the vented eaves boards will let in enough air to compensate.

 

Reason I am leaning towards closing up the eaves are: smaller critters/insects (can still squeeze through the vented ones and sheer dirt.  We are about to clean out 20 years of accumulated filth from the attic and eaves and I don't expect to do this again so letting less in is appealing.

[carlyai]

Thanks , will do that - I am considering the solid eaves fillers though (made of an artificial wood, ? cement borad? "mai chala"? ) since I have put in veted eaves boards -- though I am worrying whether the vented eaves boards will let in enough air to compensate.
 
Reason I am leaning towards closing up the eaves are: smaller critters/insects (can still squeeze through the vented ones and sheer dirt.  We are about to clean out 20 years of accumulated filth from the attic and eaves and I don't expect to do this again so letting less in is appealing.

I don't think you have to have all the eaves vented boards. A carpenter mate of my visited a couple of years ago and said you only need a few. Not sure how many a few is.

At least with vented eves you can see where all the birds nests are.

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[Sheryl]

Yes, I am planning only about 40% of the area with vented boards (well spaced out).

 

My hope is that by also using eaves filling the birds (and bats, geckos, snakes, rats, spiders and dirt) will not get in.

 

Just a little concerned that closing up the eaves leaves the eaves board vents as only air input.

[carlyai]

Yes, I am planning only about 40% of the area with vented boards (well spaced out).
 
My hope is that by also using eaves filling the birds (and bats, geckos, snakes, rats, spiders and dirt) will not get in.
 
Just a little concerned that closing up the eaves leaves the eaves board vents as only air input.

Those pen kan nok grajok, or mine, only have tiny little slats in them. What I've found with mine is that they will stop the small sparrows, would presume bats, but not gekos. The main prob with mine are not all have been installed correctly and some 1" sized gaps left which the little birds get in.
Get your boss man to check their work so that all the gaps are closed.

I think if the birds get in and make nests and eggs, then the ants go up into the ceiling to eat the eggs. That's another one of my debatable theories as to why the ants climb the walls into the eaves.

I know the two strands of barbed wire at the top of a fence stops some bats and maybe they tell each other, as the nurse that lived beside me on the island used to go out and help the bats off the airport perimeter fence.

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[simoh1490]

5 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Yes, I am planning only about 40% of the area with vented boards (well spaced out).

 

My hope is that by also using eaves filling the birds (and bats, geckos, snakes, rats, spiders and dirt) will not get in.

 

Just a little concerned that closing up the eaves leaves the eaves board vents as only air input.

That is unquestionably the wrong thing to do and you are right to be concerned at closing up the eaves, anything less than 90% air intake coverage is a seriously bad idea, especially since you're now trying to tackle a heat problem. By all means close the eaves to prevent rodents but for goodness sake don't limit the soffit intake at 40%. If you look back at a previous post I made on the subject of airflow, you will see that: the amount of airflow in space MUST equal the amount of airflow out space. And, the flow of air through the attic/roof void must be relative to the size of the roof and its footprint.

 

Put another way - a cumulative two square feet of intake air (from vented soffit boards), combined with a gable exhaust vent of five square feet, results in airflow of the lesser amount, two square feet! Make your vented soffit board area as big as you can now (90% would be great). If you find out later that your house is still hot and you don't have good airflow, increase the exhaust (gable) vent size and things will improve.

 

Carlyai - sorry, but your friend was very  wrong on this point.

Edited November 12, 2017 by simoh1490

[simoh1490]

Attic Airflow Ventilation:

 

The general rule of thumb on the amount of total attic vent space needed is to have at least one square foot of vent space for every 150 square feet of attic area. Ideally, half the vents should be located in the soffit at the bottom of the roof and half in gable or ridge vents near the top to allow for natural circulation of air through the attic.

https://www.todayshomeowner.com/adding-soffit-vents/

 

As a general rule, every 150 square feet of attic space requires 1 square foot of ventilation. Using that calculation, we find that an area that is 600 square feet should have 4 square feet of operable attic ventilation. 

 

https://www.doityourself.com/stry/how-to-calculate-proper-attic-ventilation

 

Try using this, it's very good:

 

https://www.owenscorning.com/roofing/components/vent-calculator

 

[Sheryl]

The reason I was planning only about 40% as that seemed to equal the size of the gable vents. But can certainly do more, not a problem.

 

What is a problem though is the placement of them.  As I understand it they need to be lower than the gable vent. I can't see how to do that at the front of the house, which is all gables, nor at the 2 gables in the back.  (sides no problem).  As you can see from pix there is no way to put vented soffits on sides of the gable and have them be lower than the gable vent, they will be level with it.  I could put them at the eaves formed by the tiles at the bottom of each gable but that does nto seem to actually connect to the attic space (at least that I can tell, those tiles are not visible from within the attic). Where should they go? (I'm adding the pix again so you all don't need to flip back looking for them).

 

 

What if I just make it solid vented soffits on either side of the house, air enter there and then can exit at the gable vents front and back? (with or without adding vented soffits on the sides of the gables but those would then be exhaust not intake) Or does that not make sense?

 

 

 

 

[simoh1490]

If it was me, and if I was following the laws of physics that I know to be true, I would put the vented soffit boards over every part of the overhang, excepting corners which are difficult to do.

 

The fact that the gable (exhaust) vents are very close to the vented soffit boards is not relevant. Once again, hor air rise but only to the degree it is replaced by cooler air below, hence, cooler air intake from the lowest levels of the overhang will be stronger than from the higher parts, cooler air will however still be drawn in from the higher parts, albeit at a lesser rate.

 

From your  photographs you only have gable vents to the front, at the rear, in the centre, you have a room that is in the living space, hence, it is buffered by the foil covered insulation on the floor of the attic - intake airflow via that room cannot be regarded as equivalent to vented soffit air intake since if you close the door to the room, cool air intake eases.

 

Finally, gable or exhaust vents don't need to be positioned equally around the perimeter of the roof, they just need to exist.

[simoh1490]

Before I forget, the vented eves boards cost about 40 baht each and two workers can do a large house quickly. It's an inexpensive investment which, if it needs tweaking later, can be done so easily at the gables (increase the air exhaust area) or by other means of hot air venting (whirlybird, ridge vents etc etc).

 

Also - the appearance of the size of the vents is misleading I sat down and measured each one and I was surprised. As I recall each soffit board contains 24 vent holes, each measures 0.5 cms x 15 cms = 7.5 square cms. Assume 60 soffit boards means total air intake = 450 sq cms or .48 square feet. From just looking at your gable vents I would guess the outflow is at least twice that. So if you're planning on only 40%, that's a really really small area.

Edited November 12, 2017 by simoh1490

[tutsiwarrior]

anyone got a picture of a ridge vent arrangement using a steel roof? welding required? within the ability of a normal roofing installation crew?

[simoh1490]

2 minutes ago, tutsiwarrior said:

anyone got a picture of a ridge vent arrangement using a steel roof? welding required? within the ability of a normal roofing installation crew?

Hi tutsi! it's not a steel beam and welding matter, the venting is accomplished using additional aluminum or light steel structures that sit on the roof and support the tiles - Home Mart stores have a very good display set up in most of their stores, showing how this works, Don't screw with the steel of your roof to accomplish that, the steel is structural, the venting is not.

[Sheryl]

35 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

If it was me, and if I was following the laws of physics that I know to be true, I would put the vented soffit boards over every part of the overhang, excepting corners which are difficult to do.

 

The fact that the gable (exhaust) vents are very close to the vented soffit boards is not relevant. Once again, hor air rise but only to the degree it is replaced by cooler air below, hence, cooler air intake from the lowest levels of the overhang will be stronger than from the higher parts, cooler air will however still be drawn in from the higher parts, albeit at a lesser rate.

 

From your  photographs you only have gable vents to the front, at the rear, in the centre, you have a room that is in the living space, hence, it is buffered by the foil covered insulation on the floor of the attic - intake airflow via that room cannot be regarded as equivalent to vented soffit air intake since if you close the door to the room, cool air intake eases.

 

Finally, gable or exhaust vents don't need to be positioned equally around the perimeter of the roof, they just need to exist.

But what makes the gable vents exhaust? Wouldn't they also draw in air from their lower slats? I'm confused because I can't see how the gable vent and the vented soffits will behave any differently except to the extent that the soffits are lower down.

 

When you say all the overhang is this including sides of the gables? And what about the soffit under the eaves at the bottom of the gables which don't seem to connect to the attic? (Though I say that from looking at a distance, haven't crawled on my belly all the way to them to peer downward)

[simoh1490]

Just now, Sheryl said:

But what makes the gable vents exhaust? Wouldn't they also draw in air from their lower slats? I'm confused because I can't see how the gable vent and the vented soffits will behave any differently except to the extent that the soffits are lower down.

 

When you say all the overhang is this including sides of the gables? And what about the soffit under the eaves at the bottom of the gables which don't seem to connect to the attic? (Though I say that from looking at a distance, haven't crawled on my belly all the way to them to peer downward)

1

"But what makes the gable vents exhaust?"

 

Hot air goes out through the gable vents. But hot air doesn't just move of its own accord, despite the notion that hot air always rises. Hot air does rise but it only rises if there is cooler air beneath it, brought in to replace it. 

 

That cooler air can come from any place that cooler air can be obtained, cracks and crevices, open windows and doors that allow air flow, gaps under the eves etc etc. But what you WANT is for the cooler air to come through the vented soffits, which sit under the overhangs, to be pulled upwards in the gap between the RB and the roofing material and finally out into the roof void to be sucked out by the departing (rising) hot air leaving via the gable vents - remember, the cooler air warms up as it's dragged across the underside of the roof hence what was cool air when it entered, just became hot air. That's what makes the hot air exhaust.

 

Sorry no, I don't mean the overhangs over the gables, putting vented soffits at that height would serve no purpose other than they may actually act as exhaust vents (their purpose would be reversed).

[tutsiwarrior]

29 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Hi tutsi! it's not a steel beam and welding matter, the venting is accomplished using additional aluminum or light steel structures that sit on the roof and support the tiles - Home Mart stores have a very good display set up in most of their stores, showing how this works, Don't screw with the steel of your roof to accomplish that, the steel is structural, the venting is not.

 thanks...I'll check out home mart...

 

this is a good thread as our roof will probably need replacing soon and I need to do something to reduce the heat load in the roof space...we've got a typical shophouse inverted 'L' roof profile with no eaves or gables at high level...the RB arrangements are particularly interesting and we have 6" ceiling matts already installed...a RB plus roof venting should do the trick...

 

lotsa good ideas on here...so much that I'm losing sleep thinking about them...and this is sheryl's thread and she is supposed to help me to look after my health...

 

 

Edited November 12, 2017 by tutsiwarrior