New roof advice

[Kwasaki]

17 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

This is the first I am hearing of that. What is a profile filler piece? In prior posts the discussion had been that the eaves would be left open for ventilation and plastic wavy thing put in to deter bats etc.

 

You seem to be saying I should seal the eave opening shut with some sort of device? What ios it/where do I get it and why? Won't it interfere with ventilation?

 

If I understand correctly, except of the valley and ridge flashings, which serve to cover seams that would otherwise let in water, all the others are just protecting fascia board, is that right? And can you explain why you think they are essential? I haven't missed not having any of them these past 20 years and none of the houses around me have them. Or is there more to it specific to a steel metal roof?

Simon has covered that post #147

[carlyai]

I think the profile filler referee to is those ..'stop birds etc plastic tingies' maybe wrong.
Don't worry.



Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

[Sheryl]

3 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Good points and all that's needed is a decision on what's needed.

I think there no wrong in enquiring on all aspects before the final decision is made.

l know what l want. 

Yes but that decision is what is proving hard. Each time I think I know what is needed someoen comes in with new items they say I need.

 

All I want is what is necessary to keep out the rain - full stop. I do not have eave, gable, end/side flashings now, just wooden beams and I haven't had a problem. I am unclear if there is something about a steel roof that makes these flashings  more necessary than they are on a tile roof?

 

I am also still unclear on what the purpose of these flashings is:  aesthetic? (in which case I will skip it). To prolong the life of the fascia?  Other?

 

I am 90% certain my contractors left to themselves would not even think to suggest flashing anywhere but the ridge and the valleys.  So I would have to specifically tell them otherwise (and go to additional cost) and I really need to know why I would want to do that - what would it gain.

 

 

[simoh1490]

6 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Currently where the wall meets the roof, there is just some sort of beam which I surmise is what you call fascia. There is currently no flashing. The room extends out 1 meter beyond this point. I have had no problem with rain being blown in to date. IS there something different about  metal roof that makes that a risks/necessitates those flashings?

 

So eaves flashings are optional, correct? Also gable flashings?

Yes that's a fascia board, that's what we all have on our houses.

 

No, nothing unique about steel roofs that warants anything different.

 

Eaves flashings definitely extremely very optional! :)

 

Gable flashings, I have a cement ridge on my house which substitutes for this and it works well, I'll post a picture, it's a simple work around.

 

Edited November 5, 2017 by simoh1490

[grollies]

15 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

I almost posted against that quote but thought better of it, I think you should keep in mind that a decent level of workmanship will be required but don't be scared off by remote possibilities otherwise, we'll need to talk about the effect of earthquakes and flooding as well!

Oh, for Christ's sake. The OP's steel rafters and battens are secure and been in place for 20 bloody years. Properly fixed, new roof panels are going nowhere. Stop winding up.

 

My advice for what it's worth Sheryl is that no matter how nice your Cambodian builders are, if they can't spec a roof with all the required flashings, they shouldn't be doing the job.

 

You need to find a builder who knows what he is talking about and can obtain and fit the new roof. It's that or you take a crash course in roof construction (it must be feeling like that now).

 

You could offer kwasaki a few quid to come and measure up and spec the roof - go on mate, help her out........

[scorecard]

On 10/28/2017 at 2:38 PM, Crossy said:

Does it have to be tile?

 

Bluescope steel roofing is long lasting, light, available in any colour you could ever want and, if you get the type with a thin layer of PU insulation, doesn't sound like you are living in a kettle drum.

 

Worth a look.

 

 

We have it, not bluescope brand, but the same thing. The outer side is off white colour. Now installed for 5 years and still looks like new, no oxidization whatever. It was easily sourced in Chiang Mai.  My understanding is that the price has gone down, in CM, because there are now many brands available from many suppliers. 

 

As mentioned it's an excellent noise suppressor and it does noticeably reduce heat in the house compared to houses with roofs made from ceramic tiles.

 

We occasionally have squirrels and bats but they have not eaten any of the insulation layer (fitted at manufacture). And the insulation appears to have not suffered at all in 5 years from heat, age, etc.  

 

It was installed by an experienced organized team, seemed to be quite easy to fit and it was completed very quickly.

 

Good luck.

Edited November 5, 2017 by scorecard

[simoh1490]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

Yes but that decision is what is proving hard. Each time I think I know what is needed someoen comes in with new items they say I need.

 

All I want is what is necessary to keep out the rain - full stop. I do not have eave, gable, end/side flashings now, just wooden beams and I haven't had a problem. I am unclear if there is something about a steel roof that makes these flashings  more necessary than they are on a tile roof?

 

I am also still unclear on what the purpose of these flashings is:  aesthetic? (in which case I will skip it). To prolong the life of the fascia?  Other?

 

I am 90% certain my contractors left to themselves would not even think to suggest flashing anywhere but the ridge and the valleys.  So I would have to specifically tell them otherwise (and go to additional cost) and I really need to know why I would want to do that - what would it gain.

 

 

The ridge and valley flashings are essential, the rest are largely cosmetic although they can play a role in keeping vermin and wind blown rain out, if you have another means of ventilating the roof and introducing cooler air.

 

I think you're in excellent shape with all of this now and as you correctly guess, your workmen will understand what is and what is no essential.

 

 

[simoh1490]

3 minutes ago, grollies said:

Oh, for Christ's sake. The OP's steel rafters and battens are secure and been in place for 20 bloody years. Properly fixed, new roof panels are going nowhere. Stop winding up.

 

My advice for what it's worth Sheryl is that no matter how nice your Cambodian builders are, if they can't spec a roof with all the required flashings, they shouldn't be doing the job.

 

You need to find a builder who knows what he is talking about and can obtain and fit the new roof. It's that or you take a crash course in roof construction (it must be feeling like that now).

 

You could offer kwasaki a few quid to come and measure up and spec the roof - go on mate, help her out........

You misunderstand, I wrote that I almost posted against the post about the roof being blown off but decided not to.

[grollies]

5 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

You misunderstand, I wrote that I almost posted against the post about the roof being blown off but decided not to.

Gotcha, apologies. I'm getting strangely interested in roofs...

[Sheryl]

3 minutes ago, grollies said:

Oh, for Christ's sake. The OP's steel rafters and battens are secure and been in place for 20 bloody years. Properly fixed, new roof panels are going nowhere. Stop winding up.

 

My advice for what it's worth Sheryl is that no matter how nice your Cambodian builders are, if they can't spec a roof with all the required flashings, they shouldn't be doing the job.

 

You need to find a builder who knows what he is talking about and can obtain and fit the new roof. It's that or you take a crash course in roof construction (it must be feeling like that now).

 

You could offer kwasaki a few quid to come and measure up and spec the roof - go on mate, help her out........

 

I haven't hired them because they are nice, it is because they are good and have done good job in the past. They can spec a roof with what they consider as required flashings - though translating that into the correct terminoloigy for ordering from a specific company located far away is a challenge. When they did a tile roof for me on smaller garden shed, we were sourcing nearby so they could  look at the items and select right one. Using Colorbond we don't have that option, there will be long delays and big expense  in adding or replacing any of what is delivered initially, hence my attempt to understand the different terminology.

 

However there seems not to be a single universal agreement as to what constitutes "required flashings". I am pretty certain that unless told otherwise my contractors would think that includes only valley and ridge. Which is all I have ever had. . Now I have people saying  flashing should be applied in all sorts of other places and I am trying to sort out why and what difference it will make.  I strongly suspect that once supplier has seen pix they will either try to sell me all the possibly applicable flashimgs or else ask me if I want X, Y and Z flashings. Either way, I need to know.

 

There is required as in roof will otherwise leak, and then there seems to be other "requirements" which might not be really required, just desirable and in order  to decide if I want them I need to know why they are considered desirable and what I stand to lose by not having them.

[simoh1490]

1 minute ago, grollies said:

Gotcha, apologies. I'm getting strangely interested in roofs...

I had a dream about flashing last night.....no wait, not that kind, the other kind, Oh never mind!

[Sheryl]

12 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

The ridge and valley flashings are essential, the rest are largely cosmetic although they can play a role in keeping vermin and wind blown rain out, if you have another means of ventilating the roof and introducing cooler air.

 

I think you're in excellent shape with all of this now and as you correctly guess, your workmen will understand what is and what is no essential.

 

 

Thank you, exactly what I needed to know!!

 

 

 

[simoh1490]

On a different aspect of all of this: you'll need to work out which windows to open and which to close, my guess is that you've been leaving upstairs windows open to let the heat out and that of course is the wrong thing to do. Also, it looks as though you might have a wet room or shower on the upper floor in the middle of the house at the back, leaving that window open is also not a good idea! 

 

What I suggest you do is to identify one or two windows on the ground floor of the house that are on the cool side of the house in the afternoon, those are the ones that you should open about twelve inches or so, close all the others. Doing that will allow hot air to escape from the roof void which in turn will draw in cool air through the ground floor windows you have opened, if you have an attic access panel in the upstairs ceiling, consider leaving that open or at a minimum, put a large grill or vent in it so that the cooler air can be drawn upwards. If you try doing those things now you'll probably be more convinced of the benefits of better ventilation and it will let you see that the process is effective so you can build on the concept after the new roof is installed.

[Kwasaki]

32 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Yes but that decision is what is proving hard. Each time I think I know what is needed someoen comes in with new items they say I need.

 

All I want is what is necessary to keep out the rain - full stop. I do not have eave, gable, end/side flashings now, just wooden beams and I haven't had a problem. I am unclear if there is something about a steel roof that makes these flashings  more necessary than they are on a tile roof?

 

I am also still unclear on what the purpose of these flashings is:  aesthetic? (in which case I will skip it). To prolong the life of the fascia?  Other?

 

I am 90% certain my contractors left to themselves would not even think to suggest flashing anywhere but the ridge and the valleys.  So I would have to specifically tell them otherwise (and go to additional cost) and I really need to know why I would want to do that - what would it gain.

 

 

I believe l have just been answering your enquiries into all roof products you have asks about that's all and have stated what you can use if you wish to do so.

l have posted you can just repeat your existing design. 

 

lf you read the following of what l posted before it so states.

 

Lastly on your last paragraph,  it's a good call and really down to what will you except as a acceptable completion.

Some of the renovated or new built buildings in my village use a combination of metal roofs and concrete roof tile ridge and gable products which l will be doing to my own house in the future.

It's something you could consider if your proposed builder is capable as it is aesthetically pleasing IMO.

 

The absence of roof materials on new roof builds can be done and carried out in the same design to your existing roof, what you've witnessed around you is not unusual it's Thai people l find where there finishing is usually done at low cost and build component use efficiency is not a priority to most just practicable.

 

Goodluck with your new roof.

[Allen Ginsing]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this but those concrete roof panels may contain asbestos. Should be careful when taking them off and probably want to avoid putting new ones if they contain asbestos. Good idea is take them off in the monsoon and make sure the dust doesn't fall inside the house.

I think clay roof tiles would be a good choice personally.

[Kwasaki]

6 minutes ago, Allen Ginsing said:

Good idea is take them off in the monsoon and make sure the dust doesn't fall inside the house.

I guess the monsoon rain won't hurt. 

[Sheryl]

34 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

On a different aspect of all of this: you'll need to work out which windows to open and which to close, my guess is that you've been leaving upstairs windows open to let the heat out and that of course is the wrong thing to do. Also, it looks as though you might have a wet room or shower on the upper floor in the middle of the house at the back, leaving that window open is also not a good idea! 

 

What I suggest you do is to identify one or two windows on the ground floor of the house that are on the cool side of the house in the afternoon, those are the ones that you should open about twelve inches or so, close all the others. Doing that will allow hot air to escape from the roof void which in turn will draw in cool air through the ground floor windows you have opened, if you have an attic access panel in the upstairs ceiling, consider leaving that open or at a minimum, put a large grill or vent in it so that the cooler air can be drawn upwards. If you try doing those things now you'll probably be more convinced of the benefits of better ventilation and it will let you see that the process is effective so you can build on the concept after the new roof is installed.

Yes, I have been leaving all the upstairs windows open. Some of the rooms up there have no a/c and the others (the bedrooms) run A/C only at night. There are 2 roof access panels, both currently closed.  I'll try what you suggest and see how it goes..after the new roof is on (assuming I'm not in the loony bin by then!).

 

There are 2 bathrooms upstairs, one in each bedroom which are on either side of the house, these each have the standard vented bathroom windows. No shower or wet room in the middle, but the space in the middle at the back (a sort of living area) has up high a long panel of wooden slatted ventilation with screens but no glass  panes,  would be a big production to change that to something that could be shut.

 

How does leaving the roof panels open jive with the insulation concept?

[Sheryl]

19 minutes ago, Allen Ginsing said:

Not sure if anyone mentioned this but those concrete roof panels may contain asbestos. Should be careful when taking them off and probably want to avoid putting new ones if they contain asbestos. Good idea is take them off in the monsoon and make sure the dust doesn't fall inside the house.

I think clay roof tiles would be a good choice personally.

Fibre cement installed 20 years ago, they would indeed contain asbestos. To my understanding the risk is when it is airborne, intact tiles should not be a problem.

 

I am replacing with Colorbond metal/zinc sheeting.

 

No way I would take roofing off in the monsoon!!! Work starts imminently and has been deliberately planned for the cool dry season.

[simoh1490]

9 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Yes, I have been leaving all the upstairs windows open. Some of the rooms up there have no a/c and the others (the bedrooms) run A/C only at night. There are 2 roof access panels, both currently closed.  I'll try what you suggest and see how it goes..after the new roof is on (assuming I'm not in the loony bin by then!).

 

There are 2 bathrooms upstairs, one in each bedroom which are on either side of the house, these each have the standard vented bathroom windows. No shower or wet room in the middle, but the space in the middle at the back (a sort of living area) has up high a long panel of wooden slatted ventilation with screens but no glass  panes,  would be a big production to change that to something that could be shut.

 

How does leaving the roof panels open jive with the insulation concept?

Where you want to get to eventually is with cooler air being drawn in through the slotted eaves boards under the overhang, that air will travel up the gap between the RB and the roof, cooling the panels as it goes. The hot air being forced out of the exhaust vents in the gables is then replaced with the cooler air just described - that's the end game scenario.

 

But because you don't have RB installed and because you don't have slotted/vented eaves boards installed, your cooler air intake needs to come through the open window (cool side of the house). That cooler air is drawn in by the hot air that is exiting the gable vents and once inside the house it needs to continue to be allowed its climb upwards, not escaping through open windows but instead being pulled into the roof void through the hatch you've left open. You should be able to stand under the access panel to the roof and feel the air coming up the stairs, past you and into the roof. Of course, once you get the RB installed and the new roof on, you can close the attic access hatch since the vented eve's boards will have created a new cooler air intake.  FWIW my attic access panel is in a closet and it's permanently open, whenever I need extra cooling I simply open the closet door. Your insulation is there to protect the attic floor from the 5% to 20% radiant heat you can't prevent AND to reduce the impact of built up convected heat or hot air.

[wayned]

26 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

assuming I'm not in the loony bin by then!

Nothing wrong with the loony bin, I've been buying season tickets since I arrived here in 1997!

[grollies]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 

I haven't hired them because they are nice, it is because they are good and have done good job in the past. They can spec a roof with what they consider as required flashings - though translating that into the correct terminoloigy for ordering from a specific company located far away is a challenge. When they did a tile roof for me on smaller garden shed, we were sourcing nearby so they could  look at the items and select right one. Using Colorbond we don't have that option, there will be long delays and big expense  in adding or replacing any of what is delivered initially, hence my attempt to understand the different terminology.

 

However there seems not to be a single universal agreement as to what constitutes "required flashings". I am pretty certain that unless told otherwise my contractors would think that includes only valley and ridge. Which is all I have ever had. . Now I have people saying  flashing should be applied in all sorts of other places and I am trying to sort out why and what difference it will make.  I strongly suspect that once supplier has seen pix they will either try to sell me all the possibly applicable flashimgs or else ask me if I want X, Y and Z flashings. Either way, I need to know.

 

There is required as in roof will otherwise leak, and then there seems to be other "requirements" which might not be really required, just desirable and in order  to decide if I want them I need to know why they are considered desirable and what I stand to lose by not having them.

Great, if they can spec a roof then you don't have a problem, apart from the linguistics.

[Sheryl]

53 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Where you want to get to eventually is with cooler air being drawn in through the slotted eaves boards under the overhang, that air will travel up the gap between the RB and the roof, cooling the panels as it goes. The hot air being forced out of the exhaust vents in the gables is then replaced with the cooler air just described - that's the end game scenario.

 

But because you don't have RB installed and because you don't have slotted/vented eaves boards installed, your cooler air intake needs to come through the open window (cool side of the house). That cooler air is drawn in by the hot air that is exiting the gable vents and once inside the house it needs to continue to be allowed its climb upwards, not escaping through open windows but instead being pulled into the roof void through the hatch you've left open. You should be able to stand under the access panel to the roof and feel the air coming up the stairs, past you and into the roof. Of course, once you get the RB installed and the new roof on, you can close the attic access hatch since the vented eve's boards will have created a new cooler air intake....

 

Ok then non issue since at present the weather is lovely cool!

 

Now reverting to these vented eaves boards and the eaves flashing and plastic thingy issue:

 

1.  If I put on the eaves flashing ,  this will seal up the eaves and I would no longer need to  put in the wavy plastic stuff, correct? And I don't need any sort of plastic filler substance, the eaves flashing can go right on? (cna't see why I would...?)

 

That is tempting in terms of the bat/rat issue.

 

2. Vented eaves boards: the ones on the hoem pro site are only .6 wide, my eave boards are all one meter. Any idea if I will be able to source somewhere pre-vented eave boards of 1 m width? If I can't, what other easy options are there for venting the eave space?

 

While i was going  to leave the eaves boards for later I realize now it is linked up to the flashing issue so seems I need to decide ahead.

 

 

[grollies]

53 minutes ago, wayned said:

  1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

assuming I'm not in the loony bin by then!

Have you thought about your soffits?

[Sheryl]

I think that is same as eaves boards, no? See post above

[grollies]

4 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I think that is same as eaves boards, no? See post above

Sorry, was being flippant.

 

You could use plyboard and cut in some louvred vents. Or if you wanted something more decorative, thin strip batten, stained and varnished. If you went with battens with say 1/4" gap between each you'd have your ventilation. Put up wire mesh first to keep out the tokays and jinjoks.

 

Good topic btw.

[simoh1490]

19 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

Ok then non issue since at present the weather is lovely cool!

 

Now reverting to these vented eaves boards and the eaves flashing and plastic thingy issue:

 

1.  If I put on the eaves flashing ,  this will seal up the eaves and I would no longer need to  put in the wavy plastic stuff, correct? And I don't need any sort of plastic filler substance, the eaves flashing can go right on? (cna't see why I would...?)

 

That is tempting in terms of the bat/rat issue.

 

2. Vented eaves boards: the ones on the hoem pro site are only .6 wide, my eave boards are all one meter. Any idea if I will be able to source somewhere pre-vented eave boards of 1 m width? If I can't, what other easy options are there for venting the eave space?

 

While i was going  to leave the eaves boards for later I realize now it is linked up to the flashing issue so seems I need to decide ahead.

 

 

Yes, terminology issue here, eaves boards = vented soffits.

 

1 - the eaves flashing will not seal up the gap under the roof because it wont have the same profile, the flashing is straight, your roof sheets are contoured, that all makes the eaves flashing a bit of a waste of time really. Suggest strongly you try to locate the plastic thingies since it will do all the things we talked about.

 

2 - all soffit boards are the same size, 0.60 and I think all overhangs are 1 metre. What your workmen have to do is to mark out a line 0.60 from the edge of the overhang and then cut along that line with a saw/angle grinder, taking care not to cut through the aluminium struts that hold the soffit boards in place. Doing that will remove a secton of the solid soffit boards that is equal to the size of the vented soffit boards. I did this and it was quick and easy to do, it's not a major job at all.

[simoh1490]

1 minute ago, grollies said:

Sorry, was being flippant.

 

You could use plyboard and cut in some louvred vents. Or if you wanted something more decorative, thin strip batten, stained and varnished. If you went with battens with say 1/4" gap between each you'd have your ventilation. Put up wire mesh first to keep out the tokays and jinjoks.

 

Good topic btw.

No to plywood and or any other wood products, apart from the wood that's already in place, it simply wont last, even if it's treated. If absolutely must use wood anywhere make sure it's one of the five royal woods that include teak and are impervious to all things.

[grollies]

14 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

No to plywood and or any other wood products, apart from the wood that's already in place, it simply wont last, even if it's treated. If absolutely must use wood anywhere make sure it's one of the five royal woods that include teak and are impervious to all things.

What do you mean ''apart from the wood that's already in place''?

 

These wooden battens have been up 12 years, whaddaya reckon? Marine ply would suffice. Our outside kitchen ceiling has it, and the carport ceiling, been up 12 years no problem.

 

PS the battens were cut from Sadao that was growing round the place.

 

Edited November 5, 2017 by grollies

[simoh1490]

Just now, grollies said:

What do you mean ''apart from the wood that's already in place''?

 

These wooden battens have been up 12 years, whaddaya reckon? Marine ply would suffice. Our outside kitchen ceiling has it, and the carport ceiling, been up 12 years no problem.

By wood already in place, I refer to strips such as fascia boards which tend to be of good quality wood anyway. My experience with using new wood over fibre cement products is that it tends to invite problems from bugs, rot etc. I think that replacing existing solid soffit boards made from fibro cement with wood ones containing vents is not warranted when cost and reliability are primary concerns - vented soffit boards are only 44 baht each.  But it is, of course, personal choice and we each have different ideas on what is an acceptable risk we're willing to take. 

[grollies]

4 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

By wood already in place, I refer to strips such as fascia boards which tend to be of good quality wood anyway. My experience with using new wood over fibre cement products is that it tends to invite problems from bugs, rot etc. I think that replacing existing solid soffit boards made from fibro cement with wood ones containing vents is not warranted when cost and reliability are primary concerns - vented soffit boards are only 44 baht each.  But it is, of course, personal choice and we each have different ideas on what is an acceptable risk we're willing to take. 

OK, but I really like our vented soffit batten and wooden facia board .