A century on, UK's Jewish homeland declaration stirs celebration and mourning in Middle East

[Ron19]

An off topic post has been removed.

[dexterm]

53 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I haven't missed any point, as you do not have one. What you're after is wholesale denouncement of anything to do with Israel. In your haste to achieve this goal, you often make exaggerated or false claims - as is the case with the post I replied to. That you habitually refuse to acknowledge any such inaccuracies, deliberate or otherwise, is by now something of a trademark.

 

And as posted earlier - your tirades tend to focus on "ideal" or imaginary situations, without taking into account the realities on the ground (other, of course, then when this fits whatever faux "point" pushed). That, and insisting that Israel is ought to be held to higher standards, irrespective of prevailing conditions, are again, trademarks.

 

I don't think there is (or wasn't, at the time) a whole lot by way of precedence to support your nonsense musings. There was no Palestinian (and Arab) acceptance of Israel, and there was no reasonable way (even if the leadership of the fledgling state of Israel was so inclined) of letting the Palestinians back without it leading to more bloodshed and strife. That you ignore these, as they complicate your adopted single minded and simplistic narrative is unsurprising.

 

And, of course, the illegal settlements came much later, rather than "simultaneously" - yet another inaccuracy aimed at misrepresenting things.

 

>>I haven't missed any point, as you do not have one. What you're after is wholesale denouncement of anything to do with Israel. In your haste to achieve this goal, you often make exaggerated or false claims - as is the case with the post I replied to. That you habitually refuse to acknowledge any such inaccuracies, deliberate or otherwise, is by now something of a trademark.
...complete spin and obfuscation. Not "wholesale denouncement." I mentioned just one of Israel's many war crimes in answer to a reader's query, , which as usual you side step with white noise. Is it against international law to refuse to allow refugees to return to their homes?

 

>>And, of course, the illegal settlements came much later, rather than "simultaneously" - yet another inaccuracy aimed at misrepresenting things.
... I did not mention illegal settlements..you did. You paraphrase my words to create a straw man argument, then attack your construct. Jewish families have been allowed to occupy the confiscated homes and land of Palestinians since 1947, while their owners were ethnically cleansed into refugee camps. True or not? Just as I originally said...while simultaneously transferring their own population into occupied territories.

Edited November 3, 2017 by dexterm

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>I haven't missed any point, as you do not have one. What you're after is wholesale denouncement of anything to do with Israel. In your haste to achieve this goal, you often make exaggerated or false claims - as is the case with the post I replied to. That you habitually refuse to acknowledge any such inaccuracies, deliberate or otherwise, is by now something of a trademark.
...complete spin and obfuscation. Not "wholesale denouncement." I mentioned just one of Israel's many war crimes in answer to a reader's query, , which as usual you side step with white noise. Is it against international law to refuse to allow refugees to return to their homes?

 

>>And, of course, the illegal settlements came much later, rather than "simultaneously" - yet another inaccuracy aimed at misrepresenting things.
... I did not mention illegal settlements..you did. You paraphrase my words to create a straw man argument, then attack your construct. Jewish families have been allowed to occupy the confiscated homes and land of Palestinians since 1947, while their owners were ethnically cleansed into refugee camps. True or not? Or is your above statement inaccurate?

 

The only one spinning and obfuscating is yourself. Anyone having a look at this topic and other can assert that "wholesale denouncement of anything to do with Israel" is a good description of your repetitive hyperbole rants. Sad that you cannot even own up to what you post on the same topic. There wasn't one thing mentioned, but a bunch, with you focusing on whatever suited you best later on. And no "white noise", you simply refuse to acknowledge anything which does not support your one-sided narrative, or that implies things are not as black and white as presented. 

 

As for your second comment - you just moved the goal posts from the previous comment, then whine about obfuscation. Earlier on, you referenced the illegal Israeli settlements, there was no indication you changed the focus of your argument. But to address the above - I did not claim that some of Israel's actions during and after the war were in accord with international law or treaties. What I point at, is that willfully ignoring the context when it suits you doesn't make for an honest presentation, but for a contrived agenda-driven one.

[sanemax]

16 minutes ago, dexterm said:

 I mentioned just one of Israel's many war crimes in answer to a reader's query, , which as usual you side step with white noise. Is it against international law to refuse to allow refugees to return to their homes?

As usual , it isnt quite as straight forward as that .

Before Israel were in the West Bank , Jordan were occupying the West bank , many of the Palestinians received Jordanian citizenship and they moved to Jordon proper .

    They are now Jordanians and are not refugees .

 

    

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 10:51 AM, dexterm said:

The British Govenment should be hanging its head in shame, and apologising for the misery caused and the countless lives lost through the meddling of their predecessors.

 

What right had a European power to give away land it did not own to foreign European Jews while ignoring the rights and wishes of the resident indigenous 91% Palestinian population.

 

Then supporting massive European Jewish migration, helping Jews with the infrastructure to establish a racist Zionist state, training Jewish militias while decimating Palestinian leadership and undermining all their attempts to resist this blatant colonialist project.

 

Palestinians quite rightly rejected the Balfour Declaration in 1917 and Partition in 1947 for the same reasons..why should they agree to a foreign power giving away a majority of their land to a minority of foreign colonists.

May should be staying well away from this. Just another huge mistake from an increasingly mistake prone so called leader.

A decision that has caused and will continue to cause massive world problems.

[dexterm]

24 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The only one spinning and obfuscating is yourself. Anyone having a look at this topic and other can assert that "wholesale denouncement of anything to do with Israel" is a good description of your repetitive hyperbole rants. Sad that you cannot even own up to what you post on the same topic. There wasn't one thing mentioned, but a bunch, with you focusing on whatever suited you best later on. And no "white noise", you simply refuse to acknowledge anything which does not support your one-sided narrative, or that implies things are not as black and white as presented. 

 

As for your second comment - you just moved the goal posts from the previous comment, then whine about obfuscation. Earlier on, you referenced the illegal Israeli settlements, there was no indication you changed the focus of your argument. But to address the above - I did not claim that some of Israel's actions during and after the war were in accord with international law or treaties. What I point at, is that willfully ignoring the context when it suits you doesn't make for an honest presentation, but for a contrived agenda-driven one.

Perhaps you should take more care when answering a specific post, and not cherry pick from my previous posts to suit your own straw man construct.

 

There are some things in history that are plain wrong..could give you a long list but I'm sure it would invite mischievous cries of "deflection".

I regard the systematic takeover of Palestine starting with a tiny minority of zealous Zionists encouraged by a foreign European power with proxy colonial aspirations in the Balfour Declaration leading to the ethnic cleansing of most of the resident Palestinian population as another such egregious wrong, that the world is gradually beginning to realize. That's why I see things in black and white. When an invader steals it's theft, however much you try to dress it up in religious fervor and mythology.

[nasanews]

The Brits helped create Israel then the U.S kept supporting Israel blindly ignoring Palestinians their basic rights, then angry Arabs attacked on 9/11 not forgetting unexplained ongoing terror and brutal attacks.   Now we saw Ireland declared independence, Brexit and next Scotland will vote to leave UK.
It all remind me of Newton's law.

[dexterm]

29 minutes ago, sanemax said:

As usual , it isnt quite as straight forward as that .

Before Israel were in the West Bank , Jordan were occupying the West bank , many of the Palestinians received Jordanian citizenship and they moved to Jordon proper .

    They are now Jordanians and are not refugees .

 

    

You are drifting well off topic. Perhaps your intention is to lead me there too. I don't feed trolls.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, dexterm said:

Perhaps you should take more care when answering a specific post, and not cherry pick from my previous posts to suit your own straw man construct.

 

There are some things in history that are plain wrong..could give you a long list but I'm sure it would invite mischievous cries of "deflection".

I regard the systematic takeover of Palestine starting with a tiny minority of zealous Zionists encouraged by a foreign European power with proxy colonial aspirations in the Balfour Declaration leading to the ethnic cleansing of most of the resident Palestinian population as another such egregious wrong, that the world is gradually beginning to realize. That's why I see things in black and white. When an invader steals it's theft, however much you try to dress it up in religious fervor and mythology.

 

There was no cherry picking, and no straw man construct. Making up things as usual.  As for taking care while posting - I think that was already brought up in relation to your own posts quite a few times, and that's just on the current topic....

 

Yes you could give whatever contrived list you like, and yes, it would be a deflection - as long as you refuse to accept that your account fails to address a host of related issues, and that things cannot be discussed focusing just on whatever it is your wish to highlight.

 

What you "regard" events as, is immaterial, as your take is simply made out of a single-minded narrative, which keeps ignoring anything that doesn't fit in. You fail to address anything that doesn't support your narrative, and you  expect this to be taken as a serious analysis. Not buying. As for your ridiculous black and white rationalization, thanks for sharing - but that doesn't make your narrative any more compelling or accurate, quite the opposite.

 

 

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, dexterm said:

You are drifting well off topic. Perhaps your intention is to lead me there too. I don't feed trolls.

 

[dexterm]

19 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

There was no cherry picking, and no straw man construct. Making up things as usual.  As for taking care while posting - I think that was already brought up in relation to your own posts quite a few times, and that's just on the current topic....

 

Yes you could give whatever contrived list you like, and yes, it would be a deflection - as long as you refuse to accept that your account fails to address a host of related issues, and that things cannot be discussed focusing just on whatever it is your wish to highlight.

 

What you "regard" events as, is immaterial, as your take is simply made out of a single-minded narrative, which keeps ignoring anything that doesn't fit in. You fail to address anything that doesn't support your narrative, and you  expect this to be taken as a serious analysis. Not buying. As for your ridiculous black and white rationalization, thanks for sharing - but that doesn't make your narrative any more compelling or accurate, quite the opposite.

 

 

>>What you "regard" events as, is immaterial
...I think I've heard that evasion elsewhere recently too.

 

I see historical plain wrongs in black and white, as I do the Balfour Declaration and the Zionist takeover of Palestine. You prefer to see things in obfuscatory shades of gray..the historical roll call of deniers and apologists for abusers of human rights is quite long. 

At least we know where we stand.

Edited November 3, 2017 by dexterm
spell

[Jingthing]

28 minutes ago, nasanews said:

The Brits helped create Israel then the U.S kept supporting Israel blindly ignoring Palestinians their basic rights, then angry Arabs attacked on 9/11 not forgetting unexplained ongoing terror and brutal attacks.   Now we saw Ireland declared independence, Brexit and next Scotland will vote to leave UK.
It all remind me of Newton's law.

What a load of crapola to suggest that 9/11 was about Palestinians ...

 

[Jingthing]

Not a big Theresa May fan (or Bibi), but good on her for this:

 

 

 

[sanemax]

5 minutes ago, dexterm said:

You are drifting well off topic. Perhaps your intention is to lead me there too. I don't feed trolls.

To be fair , I was replying to a topic in one of your posts .

I was just pointing out the facts in regard to one of you in-factual comments .

Well, I was pointing out the whole picture , rather than just the end result 

Not sure how you can accuse me of going off-topic, when I was replying to a topic in your post

[thaibeachlovers]

38 minutes ago, nasanews said:

The Brits helped create Israel then the U.S kept supporting Israel blindly ignoring Palestinians their basic rights, then angry Arabs attacked on 9/11 not forgetting unexplained ongoing terror and brutal attacks.   Now we saw Ireland declared independence, Brexit and next Scotland will vote to leave UK.
It all remind me of Newton's law.

IMO the Brits didn't do much more than run away from Palestine after Zionist terrorists killed some British soldiers, and allow the Americans to use the new UN to create Israel from land belonging to other people.

Can anyone imagine the US or Britain allowing the UN to declare that part of their country was now a new country occupied by people that wanted to expand their bit by warfare?

[sinbin]

On 11/2/2017 at 8:16 AM, Orton Rd said:

Time for the Muslims to put their hate aside and accept Israel

Works both ways.

[watcharacters]

 

Both factions are so imbued with generational hate I really see  no solution.

[ilostmypassword]

Israeli deputy foreign minister denies Palestinians live under occupation: 'This is Judea and Samaria'

Israel's deputy foreign minister has denied Palestinians are living under Israeli occupation, instead referring to the West Bank using the term "Judea and Samaria".

Speaking on the 100th anniversary of the Balfour Declaration, which signalled British support for the creation of a Jewish homeland, Tzipi Hotovely said Israel gives equal rights to both Arabs and Israelis. 

Her remarks were challenged on BBC Radio 4's Today programme by host Nick Robinson, who said Palestinians living in the occupied West Bank do not have equal rights and that much of the international community recognises the West Bank as being under occupation.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-deputy-foreign-minister-palestinians-occupation-settlements-judea-samaria-tzipi-hotovely-a8033611.html

[dexterm]

17 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Israeli deputy foreign minister denies Palestinians live under occupation: 'This is Judea and Samaria'

Israel's deputy foreign minister has denied Palestinians are living under Israeli occupation, instead referring to the West Bank using the term "Judea and Samaria".

Speaking on the 100th anniversary of the Balfour Declaration, which signalled British support for the creation of a Jewish homeland, Tzipi Hotovely said Israel gives equal rights to both Arabs and Israelis. 

Her remarks were challenged on BBC Radio 4's Today programme by host Nick Robinson, who said Palestinians living in the occupied West Bank do not have equal rights and that much of the international community recognises the West Bank as being under occupation.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-deputy-foreign-minister-palestinians-occupation-settlements-judea-samaria-tzipi-hotovely-a8033611.html

"Tzipi Hotovely said Israel gives equal rights to both Arabs and Israelis."
....no problem then. Give Arabs living in Judea and Samaria, where they have been living for centuries, the same equal rights as Zionists who just stepped off a plane from New York to claim their instant Israeli citizenship and land package.

 

You are after all celebrating 100 years of the Balfour Declaration, Tzipi. Surely you'd want to keep within the spirit and framework of the document... "Nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

[Morch]

5 hours ago, dexterm said:

>>What you "regard" events as, is immaterial
...I think I've heard that evasion elsewhere recently too.

 

I see historical plain wrongs in black and white, as I do the Balfour Declaration and the Zionist takeover of Palestine. You prefer to see things in obfuscatory shades of gray..the historical roll call of deniers and apologists for abusers of human rights is quite long. 

At least we know where we stand.

 

What a load of....

 

There was no  "evasion" unless you are referring to your own inability to acknowledge, address or accept anything that does not support your pet agenda.

 

History, despite your best efforts, is not usually a one-sided agreed upon narrative to which all have to subscribe. And all the more so when it is one which denies any other narrative. Your black and white point of view is neither correct, nor helpful in the least addressing issues at hand.

 

Guess I do not have the fanatical world view you take pride in, but rather live in the world like most of us - and it isn't a black and white one. Considering your spend a whole lot of words denying and justifying anything that might paint your pet side as anything but perfect, your comments are pathetic.

 

 

[Morch]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO the Brits didn't do much more than run away from Palestine after Zionist terrorists killed some British soldiers, and allow the Americans to use the new UN to create Israel from land belonging to other people.

Can anyone imagine the US or Britain allowing the UN to declare that part of their country was now a new country occupied by people that wanted to expand their bit by warfare?

 

The "Brits" did not "run away from Palestine" just due to Jewish terrorism. There was a whole spell of Arab violence prior to that, and a whole lot of clashes between the sides which did not involve British forces. It had more to do with post war Britain unable (or unwilling) to hold on to the Empire. Similar stories from other parts of the world which were under British rule.

 

The UN vote did not involve just the USA, of course, and the USA, generally speaking took quite a while warming up to Israel.  As for the "people that wanted to expand their bit by warfare" - that's just another nothing line.

[Morch]

5 hours ago, sinbin said:

Works both ways.

 

Israel managed to make long lasting and stable (if not warm) peace agreements with two of its neighbors. Israels issues are less with Muslims per se, as with Muslims bent on not accepting Israel's existence and those working toward its destruction.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Israeli deputy foreign minister denies Palestinians live under occupation: 'This is Judea and Samaria'

Israel's deputy foreign minister has denied Palestinians are living under Israeli occupation, instead referring to the West Bank using the term "Judea and Samaria".

Speaking on the 100th anniversary of the Balfour Declaration, which signalled British support for the creation of a Jewish homeland, Tzipi Hotovely said Israel gives equal rights to both Arabs and Israelis. 

Her remarks were challenged on BBC Radio 4's Today programme by host Nick Robinson, who said Palestinians living in the occupied West Bank do not have equal rights and that much of the international community recognises the West Bank as being under occupation.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-deputy-foreign-minister-palestinians-occupation-settlements-judea-samaria-tzipi-hotovely-a8033611.html

 

Yeah, one thing you can rely on is a right wing government fronting the sort of people who are bound to make such idiotic statements. All the more so when the Prime Minister in question does his best to drive off anyone who is even semi-capable of posing a political threat. To put it in easier terms - the "lady" is a walking joke.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, watcharacters said:

 

Both factions are so imbued with generational hate I really see  no solution.

 

Separate them so they won't be in each other's face.

Place a strict set of rules as to what's on and what's not.

Make sure each side accepts to abide by the rules.

Create a system to mediate and iron out future disagreements.

 

If this sounds like a blueprint for dealing with kids....

Edited November 3, 2017 by Morch

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

What a load of....

 

There was no  "evasion" unless you are referring to your own inability to acknowledge, address or accept anything that does not support your pet agenda.

 

History, despite your best efforts, is not usually a one-sided agreed upon narrative to which all have to subscribe. And all the more so when it is one which denies any other narrative. Your black and white point of view is neither correct, nor helpful in the least addressing issues at hand.

 

Guess I do not have the fanatical world view you take pride in, but rather live in the world like most of us - and it isn't a black and white one. Considering your spend a whole lot of words denying and justifying anything that might paint your pet side as anything but perfect, your comments are pathetic.

 

 

I will state my opinions as I see them, while trying to stay within the rules of TV. I thought that was the idea of a public forum. 

 

No amount of your personal flaming will change that.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, dexterm said:

I will state my opinions as I see them, while trying to stay within the rules of TV. I thought that was the idea of a public forum. 

 

No amount of your personal flaming will change that.

 

You can state whatever you like, and other posters may point out the hypocrisy, inaccuracies, hate, and irrelevance often exhibited in your posts. No amount of wiggling and playing the victim card will change that.

 

Edit - and obviously, your "reply" was just dodging the points raised...as usual.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Morch

[dexterm]

6 hours ago, Morch said:

 

You can state whatever you like, and other posters may point out the hypocrisy, inaccuracies, hate, and irrelevance often exhibited in your posts. No amount of wiggling and playing the victim card will change that.

 

Edit - and obviously, your "reply" was just dodging the points raised...as usual.

Feel free to criticize any of my points raised provided you quote relevant links to support your views, and not just your hearsay biased opinion demonstrating that you clearly disagree with me ... usually smothered in rudeness.

 

>>Edit - and obviously, your "reply" was just dodging the points raised...as usual.

I addressed your points raised with the crystal clear statement..no ifs nor buts..nor obfuscatory fence sitting. What Zionists did in 1917 encouraged by the BD and continue to do today were and are plain wrong..just like slavery, apartheid and the Holocaust. There are no gray areas to justify or rationalize any of them.

 

"I regard the systematic takeover of Palestine starting with a tiny minority of zealous Zionists encouraged by a foreign European power with proxy colonial aspirations in the Balfour Declaration leading to the ethnic cleansing of most of the resident Palestinian population as another such egregious wrong, that the world is gradually beginning to realize."

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1009449-a-century-on-uks-jewish-homeland-declaration-stirs-celebration-and-mourning-in-middle-east/?do=findComment&comment=12414201

Edited November 3, 2017 by dexterm

[Rancid]

If you are Jewish it is a case for celebration, however regardless of who is to blame, Israels formation has been followed by endless wars, millions dead and the world now a terrorist planet, as such hard to find reason to celebrate for non Jews.

[Morch]

6 hours ago, dexterm said:

Feel free to criticize any of my points raised provided you quote relevant links to support your views, and not just your hearsay biased opinion demonstrating that you clearly disagree with me ... usually smothered in rudeness.

 

>>Edit - and obviously, your "reply" was just dodging the points raised...as usual.

I addressed your points raised with the crystal clear statement..no ifs nor buts..nor obfuscatory fence sitting. What Zionists did in 1917 encouraged by the BD and continue to do today were and are plain wrong..just like slavery, apartheid and the Holocaust. There are no gray areas to justify or rationalize any of them.

 

"I regard the systematic takeover of Palestine starting with a tiny minority of zealous Zionists encouraged by a foreign European power with proxy colonial aspirations in the Balfour Declaration leading to the ethnic cleansing of most of the resident Palestinian population as another such egregious wrong, that the world is gradually beginning to realize."

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1009449-a-century-on-uks-jewish-homeland-declaration-stirs-celebration-and-mourning-in-middle-east/?do=findComment&comment=12414201

 

I do not need you permission to criticize your posts, nor is posting links a requirement for doing so. Most of what's commented on appears directly in your own tirades - the inconsistencies, inaccuracies and hypocrisy are all there.

 

And, of course, you haven't and you will not address any fact, comment, point of view or opinion which paints your adopted side  as less than righteous. You will deny or justify pretty much any bad decisions taken or all wrongs committed by them and their leaders.

 

Other than displaying, once more, a complete lack of balance, proportion or grasp of history, your "statements" above convey little more than wilful stubbornness in adhering to a simplified point of view.

 

Moreover, as pointed on many a past topics, such extreme position undermine chances of sides actually achieving reconciliation (or even a compromise). Vehement and wholesale denouncement of the Balfour Deceleration, at this stage, is both futile and communicates nonrecognition of the other side's legitimacy. It would be more relevant and effective to focus on demands that the elements of the Balfour Deceleration referring to the Palestinian and their rights would be acknowledged and upheld. Despite your insistence on a binary existence, the extreme interpretation is not necessarily the only one or the optimal one.

 

[Morch]

27 minutes ago, Rancid said:

If you are Jewish it is a case for celebration, however regardless of who is to blame, Israels formation has been followed by endless wars, millions dead and the world now a terrorist planet, as such hard to find reason to celebrate for non Jews.

 

Not all Jews necessarily consider this a case for celebration, or at least not at the level suggested by some. As for the "endless wars", "millions dead", and "terrorist planet" - pinning it all on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is plain nonsense. Making it a Jews vs. all the rest thing, is typical of your posts, and no less off mark then most.