Gunman opens fire at Texas church, killing at least 20

[AsianAtHeart]

38 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

You're being intentionally dishonest in your characterization.  English and the Aussies claim their restrictive gun ownership laws have reduced GUN violence.  Specifically mass shootings. 

Gun violence went down in Australia, according to the statistics that are published (hopefully they haven't been massaged).  However, those same statistics reveal an equivalent uptick in rapes, well beyond what would be expected due to the population increase.  So, pick your poison.

[Thakkar]

3 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Gun violence went down in Australia, according to the statistics that are published (hopefully they haven't been massaged).  However, those same statistics reveal an equivalent uptick in rapes, well beyond what would be expected due to the population increase.  So, pick your poison.

I must’ve missed the story where a man walked into an Australian church and raped 26 people to death in 10 minutes. Or where a man raped to death 60 people from an Australian hotel room.

[55Jay]

5 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Gun violence went down in Australia, according to the statistics that are published (hopefully they haven't been massaged).  However, those same statistics reveal an equivalent uptick in rapes, well beyond what would be expected due to the population increase.  So, pick your poison.

That's the same kind of nonsense as the last guy's comment.  What are you trying to assert?  That fewer guns is somehow related to an increase in rape and/or rape reporting?

 

That's something I would expect the Texas Governor to say.  Did you see that clip of him above ^ ?  Woosh!

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by 55Jay

[Thakkar]

11 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Drug control is long overdue.  Doesn't anyone else notice that other gun-owning countries have a surprising lack of such rampages while medicated America tops the list?  If you take away the guns, other weapons will be found--for it will not come close to touching the root of the problem.  Virtually all of the mass murders are carried out by people on Valium, Diazepam, etc.

Take drugs away from gun owners, but not guns from drug users—got it.

[Basil B]

If the gunman had been denied a gun permit, then how did he get the guns???

 

Do not guns have a serial number? find the last registered owners, then find out how they got to the killer.

 

Start charging people with being an accomplice by allowing this killer to get fire arms.

[55Jay]

1 hour ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Drug control is long overdue.  Doesn't anyone else notice that other gun-owning countries have a surprising lack of such rampages while medicated America tops the list?  If you take away the guns, other weapons will be found--for it will not come close to touching the root of the problem.  Virtually all of the mass murders are carried out by people on Valium, Diazepam, etc.

If you're right, and these shootings are the result of mentally ill people on chill pill meds, I shudder to think what would happen if they STOPPED taking them.  Holy Krap!

 

One thing that struck me a few minutes ago is Republicans and then Candidate Trump, chastised Democrats in general, and President Obama specifically, for not having the courage to acknowledge the obvious muslim terrorist problem.  Flaming them for being too PC and scared of political repercussions to call it what it was - Radical Islamic Terrorism.  Hell, those yellow bellied wussies couldn't even call illegal aliens illegal aliens anymore!  I agreed, it was a depressing display of government's lack of courage.

 

Candidate Trump's answer was so simple!  Ban the muslims (from certain countries) and deport the illegals.  Keep it Simple, Stupid!  I thought, man, this guy has a big set of balls and is willing to come out and state the obvious, even if it's wildly unpopular. 

 

Well, here we are. Another opportunity to excel.  But President Trump and Republicans can't seem to man up and acknowledge this, or go with the obvious, KISS solution of banning guns; at least most of them, temporarily, until we can, "find out what the hell is going on!". 

 

Best we get are mealy mouthed prayers to Jesus asking for help down here on Earth, defeatist excuses, and more distractions about mental health issues. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by 55Jay

[Ruffian Dick]

Do we have more mentally ill people in the US compared to other countries?

That's what that claim implies....

[Ruffian Dick]

Gosh, I'd like to blow things up with dynamite. It certainly must be thrilling.

Not blowing up other people's things, or hurting anyone, of course, I just want to go somewhere safe, like a blowing things up range somewhere and have some fun.

But it's very difficult to buy dynamite in the USA. Damn those stupid laws.

[Stargeezr]

When the 2nd amendment was written , the guns were muskets  and a few new single shot pistols, and new rifles from Colt, and Henry and mr Smith and Weston. No one owned any military style modern weapons that are useless for hunting.  The law is outdated and is in serious need to getting replaced.  These murders are on the hands of every American who will not get a new law in place.

Geezer

[Credo]

3 hours ago, Basil B said:

If the gunman had been denied a gun permit, then how did he get the guns???

 

Do not guns have a serial number? find the last registered owners, then find out how they got to the killer.

 

Start charging people with being an accomplice by allowing this killer to get fire arms.

Here some info on how he obtained the gun:

 

Kelley reportedly bought a Ruger AR-556 rifle in April of 2016 from an Academy Sports & Outdoors store in San Antonio, according to officials. When filling out the background paperwork for that weapon, the future mass-shooter ticked a box indicating that he did not have a disqualifying criminal history, and he filled an a Colorado Springs, Colorado address when asked where he lived.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/devin-kelly-texas-shooting-gun-licence-carry-firearm-latest-news-updates-a8040331.html

 

So, apparently you just tick the box that says you have no criminal history!   About as effective as asking "Have you quit beating your wife?"

 

 

[nausea]

39 minutes ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

When the 2nd amendment was written , the guns were muskets  and a few new single shot

pistols, and new rifles from Colt, and Henry and mr Smith and Weston.

Sorry to be pernickety, and your general point remains valid, but wasn't the 2nd Amendment adopted in 1791, way before Messrs. Colt, Smith & Wesson, and Henry became active.

[metisdead]

Some off topic trolling posts and replies have been removed. 

[Stargeezr]

So only muskets were around during the wild days when the 2nd amendment was written. So it was written when a lot of the USA was still a wild and wooly country.  Lots of wilderness and native Americans who at that time had not signed any treaties to be a peaceful lot. Then of course there were those outlaws, and shady people who did not respect the law of the day as well.

Geezer

[Ruffian Dick]

1 hour ago, nausea said:

Sorry to be pernickety, and your general point remains valid, but wasn't the 2nd Amendment adopted in 1791, way before Messrs. Colt, Smith & Wesson, and Henry became active.

It's spelled persnickety. Geez.

[Ruffian Dick]

45 minutes ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

So only muskets were around during the wild days when the 2nd amendment was written. So it was written when a lot of the USA was still a wild and wooly country.  Lots of wilderness and native Americans who at that time had not signed any treaties to be a peaceful lot. Then of course there were those outlaws, and shady people who did not respect the law of the day as well.

Geezer

I don't think the 2nd amendment was written to make sure frontiersmen could have muskets for hunting or defending themselves from Indian assault.

 

An important section of this amendment refers to the militia; I think that the citizen's militia was considered to be an important protector of democracy. I don't think we can today trust a random assortment of Americans with assault rifles to defend democracy. Rifles aren't any good against tanks anyway.

[ChiangMaiLightning2143]

Criminals do not obey gunlaws, this shooter either. Heroic locals engaged him with their firearms, may have actually taken him out. New gun restrictions in America will only create more victims, the population helpless to protect themselves from psychos and criminals

Disarm the good guys? A proven failure wherever tried.

[buick]

10 hours ago, Thakkar said:

Legal gun owners are by definition law-abiding people. If they had to, by law, turn in their guns, most would.

if guns had to be turned in, the NRA would command all of its members to disobey the order.  i have no idea how many guns are in america, i'd guess at least 500 million.  maybe 10% would oblige.  so we'd still be left with 450 million.  but the politicians would say they've done what they can and take credit for a successful program.

 

kind of like immigration, yeah we rounded up 1,000 last month.  now there are only 1.5 million left.  didn't even scratch the surface.

 

imagine if the republicans and democrats cut a deal.  some type of gun control traded for immigation control.  after the deal was cut, neither side would live up to its part of the deal.  the guns would remain.  the overstayers would not be rounded up.  that is how it works in america.  cut a deal to put up a facade of success.  but in reality nothing changes.  this has been going on for decades.

 

as i've said, i'm in favor of strict gun control but do not believe it will ever happen.  no chance.

[jaywalker]

On 11/5/2017 at 7:32 PM, darksidedog said:

When the Americans were drawing up their amendment to the constitution, that allowed people to bear arms, I wonder if they ever thought for one second about how much blood would be on their hands. It is a tragedy that such incidents are becoming so common, and yet they country can't seem to wake up to the fact it has a problem.

Gun control should be right up there at the top of the list of priorities and to hell with the NRA.

Yet it was ARMED civilian that shot the guy.

[FreddieRoyle]

Surprising to see so many here rushing to politicize this event. The NRA have been totally vindicated here, the only thing that stopped this bad guy with a gun, was a good guy with a gun. Had the good guys guns all been taken away this bad guy would have had a leisurely shoot'em'up instead of being attacked and scared off mid-spree by an heroic armed bystander. If the Americans are not very careful they will end up in the nightmare scenario that Europeans have ended up in - unable to protect themselves and being attacked by bad guys with guns, knives, bombs and vehicles with no hope for safety for themselves and family members in sight which resulted in a terrified population.

[buick]

6 hours ago, Basil B said:

Do not guns have a serial number? find the last registered owners, then find out how they got to the killer.

in some parts of america, there are trade shows where guns are bought and sold w/o any checks. there is a huge black market, just like drugs.  it is easy to get an unregistered gun.  unfortunately.  (a friend of mine has a closet full.....)

[buick]

1 minute ago, FreddieRoyle said:

If the Americans are not very careful they will end up in the nightmare scenario that Europeans have ended up in - unable to protect themselves

there was an 'incident' in california, back in the 90's i think.  two guys robbed a bank.  they had full body armor and automatic weapons.  the police showed up with pistols and had no chance.  the los angeles police got a reality check on that one.  they had to get some real weapons in order to compete with the criminals !!!

[JCauto]

10 minutes ago, FreddieRoyle said:

Surprising to see so many here rushing to politicize this event. The NRA have been totally vindicated here, the only thing that stopped this bad guy with a gun, was a good guy with a gun. Had the good guys guns all been taken away this bad guy would have had a leisurely shoot'em'up instead of being attacked and scared off mid-spree by an heroic armed bystander. If the Americans are not very careful they will end up in the nightmare scenario that Europeans have ended up in - unable to protect themselves and being attacked by bad guys with guns, knives, bombs and vehicles with no hope for safety for themselves and family members in sight which resulted in a terrified population.

Yes, because we've never seen you rushing to the keyboard post-ISIS attack!

 

The NRA have in no way been vindicated here. 26 dead in exchange for one mentally ill a-hole. Your fantasies about protecting yourself with a gun are just that, fantasy. Europeans are not made of snowflakes, unlike the macho gun-totin' men of the Right who require weapons to prop up their tremulous hearts. Terror only works if you give in to it and become fearful then start taking irrational steps to respond. Then it escalates. 

 

Same with guns. You start by putting sensible legislation and legitimate checks in place to reduce the likelihood of crazy people and criminals getting them. You heavily criminalize possession of unregistered weapons, doubling or tripling the penalties for anyone with a felony offense. You campaign to promote safe gun ownership, training, storage and use. You make assault rifles, semi-automatics and other weapons that can become automatic illegal to those outside of the police and military. These steps are common sense and have been undertaken elsewhere with good effect where countries have high gun ownership rates. You don't solve problems in one fell swoop, you gradually address them step by step. 

This is where you come back with an unhinged rant about how this is just the start of the guv'ment takin' my guns from mah cold dead fingers, carry on...

[JCauto]

11 hours ago, notmyself said:

Now is not the time to talk about gun regulation. 

So do tell us when is? Problem is that your compatriots can't resist slaughtering a bunch of people every couple of weeks or so, leaves very little window to chat, eh?

[attrayant]

33 minutes ago, FreddieRoyle said:

Surprising to see so many here rushing to politicize this event.

 

...he said, before immediately politicizing the event.

 

 

33 minutes ago, FreddieRoyle said:

The NRA have been totally vindicated here, the only thing that stopped this bad guy with a gun, was a good guy with a gun.

 

I guess the cut-off point is 26 murders.  If a 'good guy with a gun' can step in before that twenty-seventh child gets killed, the NRA is "totally vindicated".

 

 

33 minutes ago, FreddieRoyle said:

If the Americans are not very careful they will end up in the nightmare scenario that Europeans have ended up in

 

What nightmare scenario is that?  Having a gun violence rate that is one-twenty-fifth or less than that of the USA?  THE HORROR.

 

 

33 minutes ago, FreddieRoyle said:

...unable to protect themselves and being attacked by bad guys with guns, knives, bombs and vehicles with no hope for safety for themselves and family members in sight

 

If only countries could form some sort of well-regulated militia.  We could call it a police force.

 

 

33 minutes ago, FreddieRoyle said:

which resulted in a terrified population.

 

You misspelled 'paranoid'.  Which resulted in a paranoid population.

[Grouse]

13 hours ago, 55Jay said:

Well, I'm relieved and glad that your glad then.

 

I had (still have back in Murica, wrapped up in storage) 2 long guns and 2 pistols.  22 mag rifle was my Dad's when he was a younger man, gifted to me when I was about 13.  Used it for rabbit hunting.  Second, a 12 ga. shotgun, first weapon I ever bought saving money from my newspaper delivery route.  That was for busting bushes ~ dove, quail, occasional pheasant, and rabbits.  If I was into deer hunting, I would probably have 1, possibly 2 more.  Same as I had (still have) multiple sizes and styles of fishing reels and rods for different environments and applications.

 

.45 cal pistol I bought from my step-father in my early 20s because it was a fine specimen (still is).  Then an old, silver .38 Cal G-Man issue was my grandfathers, given to me when he died.

 

That's probably an arsenal to some people. Some people are into it, like coin and stamp collectors.  I wasn't, it just accrued over time.

No more questions your honour, I rest my case. The accused is guilty of having an arsenal!

[edwinchester]

So yesterday Trump blames the mass slaughter in a church on the shooters mental health problems.

I wonder how he squares that with his signing an order last February which revoked gun checks on people with mental illness?

[Thakkar]

2 hours ago, buick said:

if guns had to be turned in, the NRA would command all of its members to disobey the order.  i have no idea how many guns are in america, i'd guess at least 500 million.  maybe 10% would oblige.  so we'd still be left with 450 million.  but the politicians would say they've done what they can and take credit for a successful program.

 

kind of like immigration, yeah we rounded up 1,000 last month.  now there are only 1.5 million left.  didn't even scratch the surface.

 

imagine if the republicans and democrats cut a deal.  some type of gun control traded for immigation control.  after the deal was cut, neither side would live up to its part of the deal.  the guns would remain.  the overstayers would not be rounded up.  that is how it works in america.  cut a deal to put up a facade of success.  but in reality nothing changes.  this has been going on for decades.

 

as i've said, i'm in favor of strict gun control but do not believe it will ever happen.  no chance.

As all people throughout history, including Gandhi, General Patton, de Gaulle under occupied France, the guy who tried to invent a wheel, etc have said when faced with a difficult problem:

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Thechook]

Just another in America

[Thakkar]

2 hours ago, jaywalker said:

Yet it was ARMED civilian that shot the guy.

Despite the hyper-masculine opines and pleadings offered by the Gun Right, movement conservatives, and the NRA, their dreams of “a good guy with a gun” stopping a mass shooting (or other type of violence) are largely a myth.  “Defensive gun use”—the idea that individual gun owners use their weapons to stop crime—is a cherished tenet of America’s gun obsessives. As argued ( http://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/defensive-gun-use-armed-with-reason-hemenway/ ) in the October 2015 issue of the journal Preventive Medicine, this so-called “commonsense” is untrue. ( http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/armed-civilians-do-not-stop-mass-shootings ) Conservatives and the Gun Right have a second cherished myth: more guns equal less crime. This claim has also been debunked. ( http://www.salon.com/2015/05/24/the_rights_big_gun_lie_debunking_the_phony_case_that_more_guns_will_stop_crime/ ) Moreover, social scientists have shown that there is a direct relationship ( http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/09/13/2617131/largest-gun-study-guns-murder/ ) between the number of guns in a society and gun violence.

 

Experts on interpersonal violence such as David Grossman  ( http://internal/tab?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.killology.com%2Farticle_onkilling.htm&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.salon.com%2F2015%2F10%2F06%2Fdonald_trumps_death_wish_fantasies_guns_white_vigilantism_and_the_rights_toxic_masculinity%2F&target=_blank ) have demonstrated that it is extremely difficult for a person to kill another human being, reliably, on command, and under stress, with a gun. The dream scenario of an individual person using their gun to stop a mass shooting is refuted by experts in police training and military tactics who detail how fighting in enclosed spaces such as a school or other building is extremely difficult for even highly trained personal. In fact, a group of gun fetishists recently tried to simulate their response to a terrorist attack like the Charlie Hebdo shootings in France. Their goal was to show that “a good guy with a gun” could stop “bad guys” with a gun.

The result? The “Death Wish” and “Dirty Harry” role-playing heroes embarrassed themselves as they were repeatedly “killed” in the exercise.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, edwinchester said:

So yesterday Trump blames the mass slaughter in a church on the shooters mental health problems.

I wonder how he squares that with his signing an order last February which revoked gun checks on people with mental illness?

Don't expect any kind of rationality from the clown potus. He's a troll and a showman. That such an incompetent baby man rose to president is an eternal shame on the American people (with a lot of help from Russia). There will be a big price.