Britain won't offer a new figure on Brexit bill to unlock talks - minister

[rockingrobin]

18 minutes ago, smedly said:

The UK will leave the SM and CU - that is a given and it is impossible for any other outcome, but what is negociated in its place will be similar in function but perhaps not in name

The issue is that as a matter of EU law and WTO the UK will become a third country and that means a border where one does not exist at present.

Let's assume the non discrimination and MFN do not exist. Accepting that both the UK and EU aspirations of an invisible border and the UK government position of leaving march 2019.

The art 50 does not commit anybody to achieve a trade deal during the withdrawal negotations, only to take the future framework into account. 

Now consider that the NI border issue is dealt with as part of the future trade deal, but this trade deal is not completed before the UK leaves the EU, or the trade deal is rected by other member states,

[observer90210]

6 hours ago, Andrew65 said:

47 years ago they told us that all that the EEC would only ever be was a FTA with no loss of sovereignty.

 

That's before they took us in without a referendum.

 

The EU now has:

28 members (instead of 12? when UK & Ireland joined, many of them p1ss-poor).

A central bank

A single currency

A national anthem

3 unelected presidents

Border-free travel, including for anyone from around the World that Frau Merckel invited. (No, they're not all from war-zones).

1200km of border fences to keep the aforementioned people out of certain nation states.

Bankrupt member states being bailed out by others, which was against the founding principles of the Euro currency.

 

Very true....the whole point is for how much longer ? At one point the EU bubble is bound to burst with it's overvalued monkey currency.

 

I am not one of the high level geo-political specialists that flood all over, but a  a few humble experiences are quite significant....if you travel often all around Europe, just ask a taxi driver, a bank teller, a cop, a nurse, a store cashier if their living conditions have improved since the EU and the answer will be a direct and honest something like "no, it is somewhat worse".....then ask the members of the elites (entepreneurs, businessmen, parliament members, europeans who have hidden their stash in Panama and so on)...they will all sing praise of the EU club.....your choice on which side to take and who deserves the rants that will follow !!

Edited November 13, 2017 by observer90210

[gamini]

I am all for Brexit. Because the EU will be much better off without the UK. I will give up my UK passport willingly and get Irish one.  But I will feel sorry for the remainers when the UK economy goes down the drain

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, smedly said:

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, there is no treaty - I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about and quite frankly neither do you. It is the EU that are preventing/blocking any sort of arrangement with it's border with the UK

 

The Financial bill is what the EU are demanding and yet they are unwilling to detail what the demand is and how they calculate it

You are quite right there is no Northern Ireland treaty.  It is the Northern Ireland agreement. My bad!  Given the correction of the name my statement still stands and in fact that is what Liam Fox said himself.

 

If you read what Davis has said you will see (actually you will never see round the blinkers) that he is unwilling to give the EU the formula for a settlement.  To keep banging on about the EU when it is in this case Davis who is stalling shows a complete disregard for the facts.

 

Anyway how do you think are going generally?   UK going to come out tops?  The UK making progress as Davis says?  Tell you what, let's just blame the EU

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, gamini said:

I am all for Brexit. Because the EU will be much better off without the UK. I will give up my UK passport willingly and get Irish one.  But I will feel sorry for the remainers when the UK economy goes down the drain

I'm getting a Danish one. Ta' ska' du ha' ?

[dunroaming]

58 minutes ago, gamini said:

I am all for Brexit. Because the EU will be much better off without the UK. I will give up my UK passport willingly and get Irish one.  But I will feel sorry for the remainers when the UK economy goes down the drain

The irony is that most of the ardent remainers are not going to be affected by Brexit as much as many of the leave voters.  It is the people struggling now that will suffer the most with considerable price rises and a depleted NHS and school places harder to find.  That will then probably open the door for a labour victory and then watch how the country falls apart.

[dunroaming]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I'm getting a Danish one. Ta' ska' du ha' ?

Yes, not sure I would go for an Irish one.  I will wait to see where I will retire to and then probably get one from there.

[smedly]

10 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

The issue is that as a matter of EU law and WTO the UK will become a third country and that means a border where one does not exist at present.

Let's assume the non discrimination and MFN do not exist. Accepting that both the UK and EU aspirations of an invisible border and the UK government position of leaving march 2019.

The art 50 does not commit anybody to achieve a trade deal during the withdrawal negotations, only to take the future framework into account. 

Now consider that the NI border issue is dealt with as part of the future trade deal, but this trade deal is not completed before the UK leaves the EU, or the trade deal is rected by other member states,

The N.Ireland border with the Republic of Ireland was an issue created by Brussels to in some way throw another spanner in the works, it is an EU border no matter what way you spin it, most of the people living on the Island of Ireland don't want it to be an issue.............Brussels made it an issue, so were does that leave things ?. well like I keep saying, it is the EU that keep blocking any attempt at a resolution not the UK - so lets be clear about that  - THE EU IS BLOCKING IT

 

Come January the EU will have to put a plan in place for how they want to manage their border with the UK who will be a foreign country come March 2019

 

Two foreign countries ........................ that is the reality of the situation

 

The Republic of Ireland will not be allowed to have any special arrangement with the UK unless something changes

 

The EU has many land borders with foregn countries and they are about to get another one, I am sure the Republic of Ireland and the UK would prefer something that works but while the EU is insisting on Enforcing their borders then it is up to them "Not the UK" to make concessions

 

The UK has sat at the table and gone through the process, end of December that process will have gone as far as it can go.

 

No more time wasting, and as I keep saying, the EU number one objective is to stop the UK leaving the EU, they think that they can push the UK into meltdown and boy are they trying, anyone that doesn't see what is going on in UK politics and the forces behind it, what they have done is underestimate the resolve of the British people........we have had enough of this BS

 

The EEC was fine when it all started out but now it has turned into a huge undemocratic monster power grab and the British people have had enough, we had a vote and the message was clear - stick your undemocratic EU debacle right up where the sun doesn't shine......a very firm middle figure to these vile unelected people

 

and as for Scotland lol what a joke that is..........a vote for an independent Scotland .... right ? but at the same time they haven't the (deleted)  to actually be independent ................. they want to make sure they have handouts from Brussels because they know they cannot go it alone, what sort of independence is that, sorry but the stupidity is astounding, I honestly wish there was a vote across the whole of the UK as to whether we should allow Scotland to stay in, oh but wait they already had a vote

 

[jacko45k]

20 hours ago, allane said:

The British are walking around the clubhouse, saying to all the other members "We're leaving....,  ...but not until you give us a gilt-edged invitation to come back in."  I think they are still under the delusion that the other members are going to fall on bended knee to beg them to stay.

Don't you get it. They want out, they do not want to stay. End of....

The problem being the EU is taking this as an opportunity to extort money.

UK industry is simply demanding that the future trading positions are defined, the EU wants more money before it will even negotiate on this. It is an ugly scenario. If it is a 'club', as you call it, it would seem simpler to stop paying the oversized membership fee and turning up.

[chezy86]

On 20/07/2017 at 7:58 AM, Credo said:

What they don't tell you is that the same medications used in the US are exported to foreign countries where they play 1/10th of the amount, and the companies still make a profit.   But there is no indication there is any effort to bring down the cost of medication.   I wonder why?

 

 

On 05/09/2017 at 8:44 AM, W2Wang said:

Geez, I didn't know there are so any people being so negative, I hope life will be kinder to you and make you see more light. 

 

On 09/09/2017 at 8:29 AM, pattayadon said:

"Retard" is an obsolete and extremely offensive word!! Try using a thesaurus.

 

On 25/10/2017 at 9:11 AM, soistalker said:

In pattaya and Jomtien, the police have checkpoints where they pull over any white person on a motorcycle. Then squeeze them for money. I have watched them. Most of the whiteys pulled over have helmets and are driving prudently.

It is obvious to everyone in Thailand that the police have no interest in fixing the incredibly horrible driving conditions caused by Thai people's insane driving practices. Thais drive like little children.

 

 

12 hours ago, nasanews said:

You Brit suckers have only one chance to re-vote otherwise you are going down real bad.

Is it too late to send in the EU stormtroopers to sort this out like they did in Catalonia,

[rockingrobin]

2 hours ago, smedly said:

The N.Ireland border with the Republic of Ireland was an issue created by Brussels to in some way throw another spanner in the works, it is an EU border no matter what way you spin it, most of the people living on the Island of Ireland don't want it to be an issue.............Brussels made it an issue, so were does that leave things ?. well like I keep saying, it is the EU that keep blocking any attempt at a resolution not the UK - so lets be clear about that  - THE EU IS BLOCKING IT

 

Come January the EU will have to put a plan in place for how they want to manage their border with the UK who will be a foreign country come March 2019

 

Two foreign countries ........................ that is the reality of the situation

 

The Republic of Ireland will not be allowed to have any special arrangement with the UK unless something changes

 

The EU has many land borders with foregn countries and they are about to get another one, I am sure the Republic of Ireland and the UK would prefer something that works but while the EU is insisting on Enforcing their borders then it is up to them "Not the UK" to make concessions

 

The UK has sat at the table and gone through the process, end of December that process will have gone as far as it can go.

 

No more time wasting, and as I keep saying, the EU number one objective is to stop the UK leaving the EU, they think that they can push the UK into meltdown and boy are they trying, anyone that doesn't see what is going on in UK politics and the forces behind it, what they have done is underestimate the resolve of the British people........we have had enough of this BS

 

The EEC was fine when it all started out but now it has turned into a huge undemocratic monster power grab and the British people have had enough, we had a vote and the message was clear - stick your undemocratic EU debacle right up where the sun doesn't shine......a very firm middle figure to these vile unelected people

 

and as for Scotland lol what a joke that is..........a vote for an independent Scotland .... right ? but at the same time they haven't the (deleted)  to actually be independent ................. they want to make sure they have handouts from Brussels because they know they cannot go it alone, what sort of independence is that, sorry but the stupidity is astounding, I honestly wish there was a vote across the whole of the UK as to whether we should allow Scotland to stay in, oh but wait they already had a vote

 

The NI border issue was created by the consevative government declaration that the UK and NI is leaving the SM. 

If NI was to remain within the SM regime then all the border issues disappears.

 

It is the UK's position of NI leaving the SM and still want to maintain an invisible border .

[KNJ]

The Eu is so concerned for what? lets take a look at some of the current borders:

 

The northern endpoint of the border between Norway, Finland, and Russia form a tripoint marked by Treriksrøysa, a stone cairn near Muotkavaara - plenty of stones in both the Irelands, if it is good enough for two countries we can do the same.

 

There is a tripoint between Lithuania, Russia and Poland with a stone monument at

 WikiMiniAtlas

54°21′48″N 22°47′31″E / 54.36333°N 22.79194°E / 54.36333; 22.79194. Most of the border follows rivers or lakes. On land, border stations are equipped with engineering and technical facilities (wired fences and the exclusion zone). Most other land areas have no fence, but some places near roads or villages have fences

 

Below Greece and Albania border - no issues there, we can supply a man with a lollipop

[nauseus]

15 hours ago, nasanews said:

You Brit suckers have only one chance to re-vote otherwise you are going down real bad.

 

And if these 'Brit suckers' voted to leave again, I bet that another chance would be sought after that!

 

[chezy86]

I voted to remain but given the chance again I would vote leave. The outrageous claims from the EU makes me realise what a corrupt institution this is. Time to leave without a settlement now I say. What about the UKs share of all the investments in the EU?. When one gets a divorce are not the assets divided fairly between the relevant parties? Did UK money go into building all their fancy buildings and offices?
Recently we have seen their type of democracy with EU backed Spanish stormtroopers crushing the Catalan independence claim I need no more proof that democracy is an illusion in the EU reminiscent of Russia’s rule of the Eastern Block.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[Andrew65]

17 hours ago, dunroaming said:

The irony is that most of the ardent remainers are not going to be affected by Brexit as much as many of the leave voters.  It is the people struggling now that will suffer the most with considerable price rises and a depleted NHS and school places harder to find.  That will then probably open the door for a labour victory and then watch how the country falls apart.

Yes, they reckoned that it was the less educated who were more likely to vote for Brexit. They're not so dumb to know that as far as housing, the NHS, schools etc go, they're the ones most likely to take any negative impact. As someone else pointed out, the people who've got their cash stashed in Panama or the Cayman Islands, the EU's bloody wonderful, probably getting lots of agricultural "subsidy" from the CAP, in other words, money for nothing.

 

The BBC own figures show 7.9 million foreign nationals in the UK, probably half from the EU, and many of 'em from the poorer countries. I'd put the UK population well north of 70+ million on those numbers, I think the last census was in 2011.

[smedly]

5 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

The NI border issue was created by the consevative government declaration that the UK and NI is leaving the SM. 

If NI was to remain within the SM regime then all the border issues disappears.

 

It is the UK's position of NI leaving the SM and still want to maintain an invisible border .

N Ireland is the UK, what part of that is so difficult ?

[whatsupdoc]

3 hours ago, smedly said:

N Ireland is the UK, what part of that is so difficult ?

The border part

[smedly]

46 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

The border part

it is a UK border, is that hard to understand

 

[Grouse]

29 minutes ago, smedly said:

it is a UK border, is that hard to understand

 

Are you just being obtuse or do you genuinely not understand?

 

NI should remain (as they voted) and retain the soft border.

 

What's not to like? DUP will spit rivits ?

[sanuk711]

I think that people (especially non British people) may be getting confused with what they think is just a border issue. This has implications for the whole "Good Friday agreement"

The 19 point agreement that Ended Direct London Rule. Voted in favour 94% of the votes from S/Ireland  71% N/Ireland. Its very detailed but article 2 of the agreement (the article that got the IRA to lay down arms) states.

 

"It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland."

Or as the politicians who sold it to them at the time stated-- "The British Government are effectively out of the equation and neither the British parliament nor people have any legal right under this agreement to impede the achievement of Irish unity."

 

It's a movement towards unification -- I dont know if you can just stick a boarder up across the country and still not expect a return to what the British use to describe their 40 year war...as     "The Troubles"

[nauseus]

52 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

 

NI should remain (as they voted) and retain the soft border.

 

 

Now who's being obtuse?

[chrissables]

On 13/11/2017 at 6:46 PM, Grouse said:

You want a hard border between Northern and Southern Ireland? What idiocy!

He did not say that.

 

The UK should leave as it is, if the EU want to a hard border, that's their issue.

[chrissables]

On 13/11/2017 at 6:51 PM, rockingrobin said:

The UK had the opportunity to set out the terms of the negotitions when the withdrawal notification was sent, and was advised to do so by Sir Ivan Rogers

This failure allowed the EU to seize the initiative.

It was known pre ref that there would be financial commitments to pay.  Saying the EU are not providing details as to be incorrect   otherwise how could DD go through them line by line .

With regards NI , T.May insistamce that the UK will leave the SM and CU as onewill result in the UK and NI becoming a third country and thus a border between NI and ROI. Any agreement reached either by s FTA or WTO is problematic, nor only in the timing, but also with non discrimination rules

As there is no legal contract to pay anything, how can you say they knew there would be.

 

What details, please give me a link, or a breakdown.

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, chrissables said:

He did not say that.

 

The UK should leave as it is, if the EU want to a hard border, that's their issue.

So we would not be interested in collecting tariffs on goods coming in from the EU? I'll inform Daimler Benz, they'll be delighted!

[chrissables]

12 minutes ago, Grouse said:

So we would not be interested in collecting tariffs on goods coming in from the EU? I'll inform Daimler Benz, they'll be delighted!

We, i thought you going to be in Denmark :)

 

My point being if the EU want a hard border, that is for them to decide, not demand we (UK) have the issues in doing so.

Edited November 15, 2017 by chrissables

[Grouse]

25 minutes ago, chrissables said:

We, i thought you going to be in Denmark :)

 

My point being if the EU want a hard border, that is for them to decide, not demand we (UK) have the issues in doing so.

I will have a Danish passport. Summers in Copenhagen; probably the best capital in the world!

 

So you think having a porous border across Ireland is a workable solution? Immigrants?

 

I don't think you have really thought this through. Do you?

 

I didn't read anywhere of the EU demanding a hard border. I believe they wish there to be an equitable solution that does not destabilise the Good Friday agreement. Re-imposition of a hard border would result in dire consequences in my opinion.

 

If England wishes to continue with this Brexit nonsense it might be better to go for Irish re-unification on a federalised basis.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Grouse

[chrissables]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

I will have a Danish passport. Summers in Copenhagen; probably the best capital in the world!

 

So you think having a porous border across Ireland is a workable solution? Immigrants?

 

I don't think you have really thought this through. Do you?

Yes Copenhagen is a great city, unless you enter the migrant areas. In the city center many years ago i had the pleasure of them celebrating New Year by launching fireworks at everybody.

 

Try moving to Christiania, you will be able to buy some good stuff to smoke and contemplate life.  

 

I am not stating it should be porous. I am stating if the EU want a hard border, let them deal with it. They are as i understand it trying to make the issue the UK's, it is a joint issue. How the UK decides to operate the border into the UK is no business of the EU or that unelected idiot Barnier

[smedly]

1 hour ago, chrissables said:

 

 

I am not stating it should be porous. I am stating if the EU want a hard border, let them deal with it. They are as i understand it trying to make the issue the UK's, it is a joint issue. How the UK decides to operate the border into the UK is no business of the EU or that unelected idiot Barnier

100% correct

 

and there would be no point in immigrants entering the UK illegally what would be the point, in order to claim benefits or work they must generally be legal and invited

 

It is time for the UK to say enough is enough of this none negotiation, the fact that they are still at the table is a farce - I'd have walked a long time ago but I suppose they need to be seen taking it as far as they can, I believe the deadline to be December and if there is no progress the UK  will get up from the table and walk away leaving the door open for the EU to approach at any time if they want to talk about trade

 

The EU has run out of dirty tricks they have done everything trying to bring the UK government down but all has failed and in doing so they have alienated more of the British people, I am not a great fan of T.May but the pressure she has endured being attacked from every quarter is admirable, there has to come a time when all UK Political parties and media start to get on side and stop attacking the government, Brexit is going to happen and it is time they all realised that and got on the side of the UK and its people 100% 

[nauseus]

Best thing for Ireland is to leave the EU too. Leave any bills behind the bar!

[steve187]

On 11/13/2017 at 6:19 PM, dunroaming said:

The EU have asked the UK to come up with a formula they will accept to then work out the correct amount of money to pay.  Davis says he will not give that.  Without that formula the talks cannot progress so it is Davis and May preventing progress and not the EU.

from the op  - But Davis told Sky News the EU had agreed Britain would not need to offer "a number or a formula" for the financial deal when London accepted the bloc's schedule for the talks