Questioned at chiang mai immigration, will I have problems coming back once more?

[biglove2]

Hi all,

 

I'm a programmer from Canada who works on contract. When I work I have a lot of work and when I'm done a contract I have some nice savings to relax on. I arrived in Thailand in September and have been relaxing in Chiang Mai. My plan was to spend the winter in Chiang Mai and possibly the islands and go back home in January or February. Almost two months ago, I went to Singapore for a week and came back, I didn't expect any issues but I was stopped for questioning and they asked me if I was working in Thailand. They seemed to think I was an illegal English teacher. I said no, but they pulled me aside to section where Chinese tourists apply for visa on arrival and made me fill out a form. The immigration officer seemed quite angry. This has never happened to me in Thailand before. Before September, I was here last winter for the same reasons (I left Thailand around March) but I was down in Krabi. I was gone all spring and summer so I'm not sure where they could think I'm working illegally. I was dressed politely, have decent looking luggage, etc.

 

I had initially planned just to go for another trip in the area, maybe Singapore or Penang, and come back for 2 months then go home, but now I'm worried I might be refused entry at immigration again. Any advice on what to do? Did I just get a grumpy guy (I've never had this problem before) or am I flagged in the computer or something similar? I've just been coming in on visa exempt entries, should I go somewhere and get a proper Thai visa instead? I also just had to get a new passport as my old one was expiring, but I'm guessing they can track you via the computer or something similar anyways. Ideally I'd like to find a way to stay an extra 2 or 3 months and then I'm heading home to Canada anyways. Thanks for any advice or info.

[SicTransit]

What kind of form was it?

[biglove2]

The form just asked what my occupation was and my planned date of exit from Thailand. The girl who made me fill out the form was nice and apologetic, after I filled it in, another immigration officer processed me through. She was curt but didn't say anything much.

[BritTim]

Get a tourist visa. Ensure you have 20,000 baht equivalent in cash or travelers' checks. You are less likely to be questioned, and it is a million to one against your being denied entry.

 

What happened is that you hit a trigger of 6+ visa exempt entries since 2015, which prompts the immigration official to scrutinize you more closely to verify you are a genuine tourist.

[JackThompson]

13 hours ago, biglove2 said:

The immigration officer seemed quite angry

A small clique of Immigration people seem to hate self-financed foreigners staying here longer-term - xenophobia or jealousy or both.  They appear not to know or care how much damage they do to their nation's tourist-economy by behaving this way to the ever-growing number of people who earn their living from online-sources.  Fortunately, they only control some airport checkpoints and the Poipet/Aranyaprathet crossing.

 

13 hours ago, biglove2 said:

I've just been coming in on visa exempt entries, should I go somewhere and get a proper Thai visa instead?

Yes - a Visa Exempt entry is given at the discretion of immigration, and has a set of rules which are more strict than for entries with a Tourist Visa.  So, if you get an unfriendly Immigration officer (or supervisor), you could have problems getting a Visa Exempt entry.  They would have a more difficult time rejecting your entry with a Tourist Visa (issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs) - we only have one case of that reported here - and only at an unfriendly entry-point, which can be avoided (see below).

 

13 hours ago, biglove2 said:

I had initially planned just to go for another trip in the area, maybe Singapore or Penang, and come back for 2 months then go home, but now I'm worried I might be refused entry at immigration again. Any advice on what to do?

Take the train from Penang through Pedang Besar crossing to Hat Yai, and fly from there to your destination.  Be sure to have 20K worth of cash or travelers checks to show at the checkpoint - this is a written rule for arriving with a Visa, written back in the days before ATM machines, when tourists literally carried cash and travelers checks for their trip-expenses. 

 

In airports, immigration have been known to reject people for not having this cash, while simultaneously not allowing them to go to an ATM to get it.  Then, they force them to buy a last-minute ticket out, and lock them detention cells until their flight leaves.  At Pedang Besar, you could walk back into Malaysia and get the cash - but can save the trouble by having it at the ready.
 

13 hours ago, biglove2 said:

I also just had to get a new passport as my old one was expiring, but I'm guessing they can track you via the computer or something similar anyways.

Yes, the passports will be linked as soon as you enter with the 2nd one.  The only advantage to a new passport is fewer pages for IOs to read when you enter (quicker entry) - and resetting the count of Tourist Visas per obtaining new ones at Consulates, some of which choose to impose arbitrary limits.

 

13 hours ago, biglove2 said:

Ideally I'd like to find a way to stay an extra 2 or 3 months and then I'm heading home to Canada anyways. Thanks for any advice or info.

Get a Tourist Visa in Penang, enter by train, and you are set.  There is no legal-limit on entries with Tourist Visas.  Avoiding Thai Airports and the Poipet crossing is all that is necessary to come as often as you like with Tourist Visas - as all other crossings follow the laws/rules as written.

 

13 hours ago, biglove2 said:

Did I just get a grumpy guy (I've never had this problem before) or am I flagged in the computer or something similar?

Your experience should not affect future visits - though is a cautionary-tale of the poor attitudes you will find at the few unfriendly points-of-entry.  How one is treated at these unfriendly locations appears to be arbitrary. 

 

Note that little is done in-country to catch illegal English teachers - or the schools that hire them, who demand they work illegally for months before supplying the paperwork for a proper visa (according to many reports, here).  Meanwhile millions of foreign-workers from neighboring countries work illegally and legally in Thailand, aided by special "cut out" rules allowing them to enter an unlimited number of times at land borders (we can only enter 2x per calendar year visa-exempt by land). 

 

The "work illegally" routine with immigration is just a cover for hate of longer-staying foreigners - otherwise, they would address the roots of the issue.  It's similar to the USA, in this respect, where they "catch and release" illegal entrants, so they can work-cheap for the rich / businesses - driving working-citizens into unemployment and/or working-poverty - while giving the "3rd Degree" treatment to tourists who fly in with valid visas, so they can pretend they are "doing something."

[jimn]

Do as advised above. Alternatively book a cheap domestic return flight to BKK and then exit/ re enter via BKK. You will find them much more accomodating there.

[jimster]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

A small clique of Immigration people seem to hate self-financed foreigners staying here longer-term - xenophobia or jealousy or both.  They appear not to know or care how much damage they do to their nation's tourist-economy by behaving this way to the ever-growing number of people who earn their living from online-sources.  Fortunately, they only control some airport checkpoints and the Poipet/Aranyaprathet crossing.

 

Yes - a Visa Exempt entry is given at the discretion of immigration, and has a set of rules which are more strict than for entries with a Tourist Visa.  So, if you get an unfriendly Immigration officer (or supervisor), you could have problems getting a Visa Exempt entry.  They would have a more difficult time rejecting your entry with a Tourist Visa (issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs) - we only have one case of that reported here - and only at an unfriendly entry-point, which can be avoided (see below).

 

Take the train from Penang through Pedang Besar crossing to Hat Yai, and fly from there to your destination.  Be sure to have 20K worth of cash or travelers checks to show at the checkpoint - this is a written rule for arriving with a Visa, written back in the days before ATM machines, when tourists literally carried cash and travelers checks for their trip-expenses. 

 

In airports, immigration have been known to reject people for not having this cash, while simultaneously not allowing them to go to an ATM to get it.  Then, they force them to buy a last-minute ticket out, and lock them detention cells until their flight leaves.  At Pedang Besar, you could walk back into Malaysia and get the cash - but can save the trouble by having it at the ready.
 

Yes, the passports will be linked as soon as you enter with the 2nd one.  The only advantage to a new passport is fewer pages for IOs to read when you enter (quicker entry) - and resetting the count of Tourist Visas per obtaining new ones at Consulates, some of which choose to impose arbitrary limits.

 

Get a Tourist Visa in Penang, enter by train, and you are set.  There is no legal-limit on entries with Tourist Visas.  Avoiding Thai Airports and the Poipet crossing is all that is necessary to come as often as you like with Tourist Visas - as all other crossings follow the laws/rules as written.

 

Your experience should not affect future visits - though is a cautionary-tale of the poor attitudes you will find at the few unfriendly points-of-entry.  How one is treated at these unfriendly locations appears to be arbitrary. 

 

Note that little is done in-country to catch illegal English teachers - or the schools that hire them, who demand they work illegally for months before supplying the paperwork for a proper visa (according to many reports, here).  Meanwhile millions of foreign-workers from neighboring countries work illegally and legally in Thailand, aided by special "cut out" rules allowing them to enter an unlimited number of times at land borders (we can only enter 2x per calendar year visa-exempt by land). 

 

The "work illegally" routine with immigration is just a cover for hate of longer-staying foreigners - otherwise, they would address the roots of the issue.  It's similar to the USA, in this respect, where they "catch and release" illegal entrants, so they can work-cheap for the rich / businesses - driving working-citizens into unemployment and/or working-poverty - while giving the "3rd Degree" treatment to tourists who fly in with valid visas, so they can pretend they are "doing something."

Lao and Cambodian citizens can enter unlimited times due to a reciprocal agreement with Thailand. Laotians can stay 30 days, Cambodians 14 using a passport. Technically they shouldn't be staying the entire visa-free period only to enter their own country and come back again to repeat the same thing over and over again, but there is nothing in the law that says they can't. Most legitimate traders, businessmen and tourists from these countries spend a day or a few in Thailand, leave then come again a few days later never staying more than a few days in Thailand at a time and generally sticking to the province of entry. Some of these people use border passes for entry, especially Lao citizens.

 

Burmese can't arrive overland without a visa (they can fly in visa-free for a 14 day stay though), but border passes allow them limited travel near the border for up to 7 days (depending on the crossing).

 

In these cases, I would hardly classify them as having "special border privileges". Russians can also enter Thailand unlimited times at land borders since they have a bilateral visa agreement with Thailand.

 

Thailand is currently entering all so-called migrant laborers into a biometric database, with their fingerprints and other biometric information being taken. Once complete, all legal and illegal workers will be known to immigration and the government.

[moe666]

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

A small clique of Immigration people seem to hate self-financed foreigners staying here longer-term - xenophobia or jealousy or both.  They appear not to know or care how much damage they do to their nation's tourist-economy by behaving this way to the ever-growing number of people who earn their living from online-sources.  Fortunately, they only control some airport checkpoints and the Poipet/Aranyaprathet crossing.

 

Yes - a Visa Exempt entry is given at the discretion of immigration, and has a set of rules which are more strict than for entries with a Tourist Visa.  So, if you get an unfriendly Immigration officer (or supervisor), you could have problems getting a Visa Exempt entry.  They would have a more difficult time rejecting your entry with a Tourist Visa (issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs) - we only have one case of that reported here - and only at an unfriendly entry-point, which can be avoided (see below).

 

Take the train from Penang through Pedang Besar crossing to Hat Yai, and fly from there to your destination.  Be sure to have 20K worth of cash or travelers checks to show at the checkpoint - this is a written rule for arriving with a Visa, written back in the days before ATM machines, when tourists literally carried cash and travelers checks for their trip-expenses. 

 

In airports, immigration have been known to reject people for not having this cash, while simultaneously not allowing them to go to an ATM to get it.  Then, they force them to buy a last-minute ticket out, and lock them detention cells until their flight leaves.  At Pedang Besar, you could walk back into Malaysia and get the cash - but can save the trouble by having it at the ready.
 

Yes, the passports will be linked as soon as you enter with the 2nd one.  The only advantage to a new passport is fewer pages for IOs to read when you enter (quicker entry) - and resetting the count of Tourist Visas per obtaining new ones at Consulates, some of which choose to impose arbitrary limits.

 

Get a Tourist Visa in Penang, enter by train, and you are set.  There is no legal-limit on entries with Tourist Visas.  Avoiding Thai Airports and the Poipet crossing is all that is necessary to come as often as you like with Tourist Visas - as all other crossings follow the laws/rules as written.

 

Your experience should not affect future visits - though is a cautionary-tale of the poor attitudes you will find at the few unfriendly points-of-entry.  How one is treated at these unfriendly locations appears to be arbitrary. 

 

Note that little is done in-country to catch illegal English teachers - or the schools that hire them, who demand they work illegally for months before supplying the paperwork for a proper visa (according to many reports, here).  Meanwhile millions of foreign-workers from neighboring countries work illegally and legally in Thailand, aided by special "cut out" rules allowing them to enter an unlimited number of times at land borders (we can only enter 2x per calendar year visa-exempt by land). 

 

The "work illegally" routine with immigration is just a cover for hate of longer-staying foreigners - otherwise, they would address the roots of the issue.  It's similar to the USA, in this respect, where they "catch and release" illegal entrants, so they can work-cheap for the rich / businesses - driving working-citizens into unemployment and/or working-poverty - while giving the "3rd Degree" treatment to tourists who fly in with valid visas, so they can pretend they are "doing something."

What you seem to miss is that people like the OP have a very small impact on the tourist numbers in Thailand. Canada is not on the list as top place that tourist come from to Thailand. The majority of tourist come and stay 5 to 10 days and are gone. Your argument is as old as the nail in the coffin quip used here years ago.

[JackThompson]

53 minutes ago, moe666 said:

What you seem to miss is that people like the OP have a very small impact on the tourist numbers in Thailand. Canada is not on the list as top place that tourist come from to Thailand. The majority of tourist come and stay 5 to 10 days and are gone. Your argument is as old as the nail in the coffin quip used here years ago.

First - it's not "one or the other."  Foreign-sourced income is all upside, since there is no "social safety net" factor.  All the money spent by foreigners (not working here) is "free money" from abroad.  Each 8K Baht/mo spent fully-funds an entry-level Thai job in tourist-related industries.

 

In pure "numbers" the Chinese have a large volume - but they come on package deals that involve little spending per-person into the economy, while putting a heavy tax on roads (traffic and wear from tour-buses), and generally lowering the quality-of-life for both residents and tourists due to crowding and traffic.

 

Those from the West, who used to fill many empty or now-closed bars and restaurants, and who rented condos long-term (many now empty), spend more per-capita and many times more per-year.  Our "total numbers" are lower (and dropping, due to pointless visa-hurdles), but our spending was, and remains of great benefit. 

 

Untold baht have been lost from past 'crackdown' actions, as Westerners moved by the thousands to Cambodia, The Philippines, Vietnam, and Latin America.  Thailand has generated a bad-reputation among independently-funded people, as having an inhospitable immigration system. Before coming to Thailand, I personally met many travelers in several of those locations who all said basically the same thing, "Don't bother going to Thailand.  The visa/border situation is crazy now." 

 

Now factor in the rapidly increasing numbers of self-funded people, thanks to online businesses.  The effect of discriminating against under-50s, projected into the future, is even more damaging to potential revenues than the demonstrable harm from past 'crackdowns'.  Thailand would be an ideal place for such persons to live, yet a closed-minded faction are throwing away this fantastic opportunity.

 

Making it increasingly difficult for longer-term self-funded under-50 tourists to stay and spend does not serve any logical purpose. 

[steve187]

5 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Take the train from Penang through Pedang Besar crossing to Hat Yai, and fly from there to your destination.

i don't think this is a workable solution to someone being stopped at at airport immigration,what a lot of messing around, getting to Penang, the train journey, border control, train again, local airport, flight then you are where you want to be, hours and hours after you could have arrived on a direct flight to Thailand. get a correct visa = easy

[JackThompson]

40 minutes ago, steve187 said:

i don't think this is a workable solution to someone being stopped at at airport immigration,what a lot of messing around, getting to Penang, the train journey, border control, train again, local airport, flight then you are where you want to be, hours and hours after you could have arrived on a direct flight to Thailand. get a correct visa = easy

Not easy if under 50 and airports making trouble for people with valid Tourist Visas.  At Pedang Besar and almost anywhere else (but not airports), all you need to show is a valid TR Visa plus maybe show 20K Baht and you are in with no stress/worries.

 

I've done this route - not hard at all.  Trains from Penang to Pedang Besar are frequent and fast.  Immigration-time through Pedang Besar is also fast (airport could be hours in line).

Then can train, bus, or taxi to Hat Yai.  The quickest is taxi straight from the Pedang Besar checkpoint to the Hat Yai airport, but can save a some money as tradeoff for convenience by taking a cheaper route to Hat Yai first.

Flights from Hat Yai airport to all over Thailand - and almost as cheap as bus-fare, if booked in advance.

[biglove2]

Thanks everyone for the replies and information! Taking bus/train/etc seems really complicated, ideally I'd rather just fly in/fly out if possible. I'm looking at visas in the area, it really seems like a hassle in general, am I likely to get turned back if I just go for a few days to Singapore and fly back in, possibly through Bangkok, sine I only want to stay an extra two months and go home? Or annoying though it is, is it an option to pop over the border close to Chiang Mai to Burma and just come back?

 

Thank you!

[JackThompson]

16 hours ago, biglove2 said:

Thanks everyone for the replies and information! Taking bus/train/etc seems really complicated, ideally I'd rather just fly in/fly out if possible. I'm looking at visas in the area, it really seems like a hassle in general, am I likely to get turned back if I just go for a few days to Singapore and fly back in, possibly through Bangkok, sine I only want to stay an extra two months and go home? Or annoying though it is, is it an option to pop over the border close to Chiang Mai to Burma and just come back?

 

Thank you!

If you qualify for a 2nd Visa Exempt entry By Land (do not have 2 land-crossing visa-exempt entries this calendar-year), then you can do a border-bounce at some land-crossings for a new Visa Exempt entry.  If they do not intend to let you do this, you will not be allowed to leave at Burmese crossings absent a Myanmar-visa.  A crossing into Lao and back would be another option.

 

If you choose to fly-in, return with a Tourist Visa + 20K Baht worth of cash to show, plus the complete address of where you will be staying, plus a solid explanation of how you support yourself (supporting paperwork might help - or not).  If you have a ticket-out, bring evidence of it.  We have one report of someone being forced to purchase a ticket out, in exchange for being allowed to enter with a Tourist Visa.  The ticket is not required by law with a Tourist Visa, but you will be entering a zone where the law is not respected, so should be prepared to satisfy non-legal demands.

[Hardie]

On 11/19/2017 at 7:13 PM, JackThompson said:

A small clique of Immigration people seem to hate self-financed foreigners staying here longer-term - xenophobia or jealousy or both.  They appear not to know or care how much damage they do to their nation's tourist-economy by behaving this way to the ever-growing number of people who earn their living from online-sources.  Fortunately, they only control some airport checkpoints and the Poipet/Aranyaprathet crossing.

 

Yes - a Visa Exempt entry is given at the discretion of immigration, and has a set of rules which are more strict than for entries with a Tourist Visa.  So, if you get an unfriendly Immigration officer (or supervisor), you could have problems getting a Visa Exempt entry.  They would have a more difficult time rejecting your entry with a Tourist Visa (issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs) - we only have one case of that reported here - and only at an unfriendly entry-point, which can be avoided (see below).

 

Take the train from Penang through Pedang Besar crossing to Hat Yai, and fly from there to your destination.  Be sure to have 20K worth of cash or travelers checks to show at the checkpoint - this is a written rule for arriving with a Visa, written back in the days before ATM machines, when tourists literally carried cash and travelers checks for their trip-expenses. 

 

In airports, immigration have been known to reject people for not having this cash, while simultaneously not allowing them to go to an ATM to get it.  Then, they force them to buy a last-minute ticket out, and lock them detention cells until their flight leaves.  At Pedang Besar, you could walk back into Malaysia and get the cash - but can save the trouble by having it at the ready.
 

Yes, the passports will be linked as soon as you enter with the 2nd one.  The only advantage to a new passport is fewer pages for IOs to read when you enter (quicker entry) - and resetting the count of Tourist Visas per obtaining new ones at Consulates, some of which choose to impose arbitrary limits.

 

Get a Tourist Visa in Penang, enter by train, and you are set.  There is no legal-limit on entries with Tourist Visas.  Avoiding Thai Airports and the Poipet crossing is all that is necessary to come as often as you like with Tourist Visas - as all other crossings follow the laws/rules as written.

 

Your experience should not affect future visits - though is a cautionary-tale of the poor attitudes you will find at the few unfriendly points-of-entry.  How one is treated at these unfriendly locations appears to be arbitrary. 

 

Note that little is done in-country to catch illegal English teachers - or the schools that hire them, who demand they work illegally for months before supplying the paperwork for a proper visa (according to many reports, here).  Meanwhile millions of foreign-workers from neighboring countries work illegally and legally in Thailand, aided by special "cut out" rules allowing them to enter an unlimited number of times at land borders (we can only enter 2x per calendar year visa-exempt by land). 

 

The "work illegally" routine with immigration is just a cover for hate of longer-staying foreigners - otherwise, they would address the roots of the issue.  It's similar to the USA, in this respect, where they "catch and release" illegal entrants, so they can work-cheap for the rich / businesses - driving working-citizens into unemployment and/or working-poverty - while giving the "3rd Degree" treatment to tourists who fly in with valid visas, so they can pretend they are "doing something."

"Catch and release?" Got a link to a source for that info?

[biglove2]

4 hours ago, JackThompson said:

If you qualify for a 2nd Visa Exempt entry By Land (do not have 2 land-crossing visa-exempt entries this calendar-year), then you can do a border-bounce at some land-crossings for a new Visa Exempt entry.  If they do not intend to let you do this, you will not be allowed to leave at Burmese crossings absent a Myanmar-visa.  A crossing into Lao and back would be another option.

Is this more risky than flying somewhere to get a visa? As much as I don't fancy being on a bus to Burma for 8 hours, the idea of having it all over and done with in a day is appealing.

 

4 hours ago, JackThompson said:

 

If you choose to fly-in, return with a Tourist Visa + 20K Baht worth of cash to show, plus the complete address of where you will be staying, plus a solid explanation of how you support yourself (supporting paperwork might help - or not).  If you have a ticket-out, bring evidence of it.  We have one report of someone being forced to purchase a ticket out, in exchange for being allowed to enter with a Tourist Visa.  The ticket is not required by law with a Tourist Visa, but you will be entering a zone where the law is not respected, so should be prepared to satisfy non-legal demands.

If I go to Penang or Singapore say, and have a valid TV, if I fly directly back to Chiang Mai airport with the 20K cash, address, etc, do I risk being denied because they have that form on file they made me fill out? Or is it better to fly through somewhere like Krabi and then back to Chiang Mai?

 

Thank you

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, Hardie said:

"Catch and release?" Got a link to a source for that info?

It OT, so I sent you a PM with links/details/graph.  The final paragraph of that message is on-topic to Thailand - why enforcement against illegal-workers matters - though an Airport would be the lowest-priority location in either country (USA or Thailand) to solve that issue.  It reads:

 

The damage (of displacing citizens with foreign workers) is reduced to a great extent in Thailand, because many citizens displaced from careers by illegal or legal foreign workers have family-farms to return to, when "a job" is not an option.  "Self Sustainability" agricultural programs also reduce the harm, and allow for a "better than subsistence" and healthier life on a farm.  But alcohol and drug problems have parallels in both countries (USA and Thailand) - a predictable result of people being displaced from a decently-paid, 'productive' function within the economic system, by the importation of cheap foreign labor.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, biglove2 said:

If I go to Penang or Singapore say, and have a valid TV, if I fly directly back to Chiang Mai airport with the 20K cash, address, etc, do I risk being denied because they have that form on file they made me fill out? Or is it better to fly through somewhere like Krabi and then back to Chiang Mai?

Until your post, I don't recall reports of problems at Chang Mai airport.  It is possible this "form" business is being pushed on them from above, and this checkpoint is not as "eager" to deny-entry - or, it could be under new leadership, and could be problematic in the future.  Maybe they are OK with those entering with Tourist Visas regardless of a longer-stay history.  We just don't know (others with recent experience should comment, please). 

 

I returned via Pedang Besar and on to the Hat Yai airport exactly to avoid a denial-risk on Penang visa trips.  But, you are far less likely to be denied entry with a Tourist Visa plus 20K Baht by air, than entering Visa Exempt by air. 

 

If you only need 60-days or less, and have a ticket-out to show, I would personally try for a Visa Exempt at a land-border - provided you don't have 2 Visa-Exempts by land this year.  Someone else can chime-in on which crossings to Myanmar will allow this - I can't remember which ones do and don't.  I believe some do not ever allow crossings for Visa Exempt entries.  AFAIK, all the Lao crossings in that area allow this but, again, maybe someone with experience in that area can better assist (I haven't lived / traveled in that part of Thailand).