Tobbaco

[webfact]

Saudi Crown Prince calls Iran leader 'new Hitler' - NYT

 

FILE PHOTO: Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman attends the Future Investment Initiative conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia October 24, 2017. REUTERS/Hamad I Mohammed/File Photo

 

DUBAI (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia's powerful Crown Prince called the Supreme Leader of Iran "the new Hitler of the Middle East" in an interview with the New York Times published on Thursday, sharply escalating the war of words between the arch-rivals.

 

The Sunni Muslim kingdom of Saudi Arabia and Shi'ite Iran back rival sides in wars and political crises throughout the region.

 

Mohammed bin Salman, who is also Saudi defence minister in the U.S.-allied oil giant kingdom, suggested the Islamic Republic's alleged expansion under Ayatollah Ali Khamenei needed to be confronted.

 

"But we learned from Europe that appeasement doesn't work. We don't want the new Hitler in Iran to repeat what happened in Europe in the Middle East," the paper quoted him as saying.

 

Tensions soared this month when Lebanon's Saudi-allied Prime Minister Saad Hariri resigned in a television broadcast from Riyadh, citing the influence of Iran-backed Hezbollah in Lebanon and risks to his life.

 

Hezbollah called the move an act of war engineered by Saudi authorities, an accusation they denied.

 

Hariri has since suspended his resignation.

 

Saudi Arabia has launched thousands of air strikes in a 2-1/2-year-old war in neighbouring Yemen to defeat the Iranian-aligned Houthi movement that seized broad swaths of the country.

 

Salman told the Times that the war was going in its favour and that its allies controlled 85 percent of Yemen's territory.

 

The Houthis, however, still retain the main population centres despite the war effort by a Saudi-led military coalition which receives intelligence and refuelling for its warplanes by the United States. Some 10,000 people have died in the conflict.

 

The group launched a ballistic missile toward Riyadh's main airport on Nov. 4, which Saudi Arabis decried as an act of war by Tehran.

 

Bin Salman said in May that the kingdom would make sure any future struggle between the two countries "is waged in Iran".

 

For his part, Khamenei has referred to the House of Saud as an "accursed tree", and Iranian officials have accused the kingdom of spreading terrorism.

 

(Reporting By Noah Browning; Editing by Michael Perry and Ralph Boulton)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-11-24

 

[nausea]

He's obviously never heard of Godwin's Law.

[ilostmypassword]

This coming from someone who's starving a few million Yemenis and enabling a cholera epidemic.

 

Blame the Saudis for Yemen's cholera outbreak – they are targeting the people

 

Over the past four months, Yemen has been ravaged by a cholera outbreak that the UN has branded the worst in the world. About 7,000 new cases are reported daily – 436,625 have been recorded since the end of April – and already there have been more than 1,915 deaths.

The epidemic is one aspect of a broader humanitarian emergency in Yemen. Two-thirds of the population – 18.8 million people – require some form of emergency aid.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/aug/02/blame-saudi-coalition-for-yemen-cholera-outbreak

[coulson]

.....coming from a man that doesn't permit Jews into his land.

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, coulson said:

.....coming from a man that doesn't permit Jews into his land.

To be fair, that rule has changed, at least in theory. And it was before his time. It's not something he imposed.

[ezzra]

8 hours ago, coulson said:

.....coming from a man that doesn't permit Jews into his land.

Funny you mentioned that as now, the prince is courting Israel very hard to be his henchman to act as a proxy army to fight Iran and the Hezbollah... Oh how tunes chance when you need your enemy's enemy  to be your friend....

[Jingthing]

Calling for the destruction of the world's only Jewish identified state not counting Boca Raton is definitely Hitlery. That internet law is moot if there are actual grounds for the comparison. I wouldn't put it the same way but it's not completely bonkers either.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Morch]

Not the most educated of Saudi princes, and not the most subtle. To put it mildly.

[Morch]

5 hours ago, coulson said:

.....coming from a man that doesn't permit Jews into his land.

 

Saudi Arabia: Israelis banned, but Jews now allowed to work here

https://www.timesofisrael.com/saudi-arabia-jews-now-allowed-to-work-here/

 

From Qom to Medina: Israeli Jew visits holy sites across Muslim world

https://www.timesofisrael.com/from-qom-to-medina-israeli-jew-visits-holy-sites-across-muslim-world/

 

With regard to the first link, it more about plausible deniability, and even that is tossed away when needed.

 

Edit - and obviously doesn't apply to government officials or say, USA servicemen.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Morch

[LaoPo]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

Not the most educated of Saudi princes, and not the most subtle. To put it mildly.

 

Might be..but if you're 32 and one of hundreds of princes in Saudi Arabia, you're definitely the smartest of them all.

 

I've been following this chap since around 3 or 4 years and what he accomplished (in my simple western eyes) is amazing and shocking at the same time.  He has absolute power now and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if he would be King in a matter of weeks...  He will change the whole of Saudi Arabia in it's antique ruling and Islam system.

 

He decided to put Princes and billionaires in luxury custody since they've been stealing and robbing Saudi's oil billions and it was up to them:  pay back or disappear.

 

Most of them paid off and the process is still going on; we'll probably don't hear much of this anymore since no doubt they will be silenced or....

 

Lets hope there won't be a total war between SA and Iran...he will not hesitate to fight them but does Iran has nukes already?  That's why he's seeking support from.......

 

Israel...

 

difficult times, built on oil billions from both sides.

[Farma]

19 minutes ago, Morch said:

Not the most educated of Saudi princes, and not the most subtle. To put it mildly.

A couple of years ago I would see him on a nearly daily basis. He had a good reputation with his subjects and would help them as much as he could whenever the sought an audience with him.

 

My closest interaction with him was a near accident when he had sped up quickly from behind as we were about to turn and nearly hit the side of our car. He gave us a short beep of his horn to warn us of his presence then a friendly smile and wave as he sped past.

[ilostmypassword]

3 hours ago, LaoPo said:

 

Might be..but if you're 32 and one of hundreds of princes in Saudi Arabia, you're definitely the smartest of them all.

 

I've been following this chap since around 3 or 4 years and what he accomplished (in my simple western eyes) is amazing and shocking at the same time.  He has absolute power now and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if he would be King in a matter of weeks...  He will change the whole of Saudi Arabia in it's antique ruling and Islam system.

 

He decided to put Princes and billionaires in luxury custody since they've been stealing and robbing Saudi's oil billions and it was up to them:  pay back or disappear.

 

Most of them paid off and the process is still going on; we'll probably don't hear much of this anymore since no doubt they will be silenced or....

 

Lets hope there won't be a total war between SA and Iran...he will not hesitate to fight them but does Iran has nukes already?  That's why he's seeking support from.......

 

Israel...

 

difficult times, built on oil billions from both sides.

It was certainly extremely intelligent of him to choose the current king to be his father. And to be such an extraordinarily good lawyer as to be able to buy a $500 million plus yacht. And this while slashing benefits to Saudi citizens. The guy is a genius.

[Morch]

I'm not doubting the Crown Prince's popularity, ruthlessness or savvy of court politics. The comment made was with regard to his education and subtlety.

[ilostmypassword]

3 hours ago, LaoPo said:

 

Might be..but if you're 32 and one of hundreds of princes in Saudi Arabia, you're definitely the smartest of them all.

 

I've been following this chap since around 3 or 4 years and what he accomplished (in my simple western eyes) is amazing and shocking at the same time.  He has absolute power now and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if he would be King in a matter of weeks...  He will change the whole of Saudi Arabia in it's antique ruling and Islam system.

 

He decided to put Princes and billionaires in luxury custody since they've been stealing and robbing Saudi's oil billions and it was up to them: pay back or disappear.

 

Most of them paid off and the process is still going on; we'll probably don't hear much of this anymore since no doubt they will be silenced or....

 

Lets hope there won't be a total war between SA and Iran...he will not hesitate to fight them but does Iran has nukes already?  That's why he's seeking support from.......

 

Israel...

 

difficult times, built on oil billions from both sides.

I did forget to mention his brilliant management of the war in Yemen, the one he promised would be over in a couple of months. And his fantastically successful embargo of Qatar. And his well reasoned intercession in the affairs of Lebanon.

[Morch]

Just now, ilostmypassword said:

It was certainly extremely intelligent of him to choose the current king to be his father. And to be such an extraordinarily good lawyer as to be able to buy a $500 million plus yacht. And this while slashing benefits to Saudi citizens. The guy is a genius.

 

And yet, as Saudi Crown Princes go, he managed to concentrate quite impressive powers, ditch the competition, and for all your nonsense, apparently still popular with the masses.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, ilostmypassword said:

I did forget to mention his brilliant management of the war in Yemen, the one he promised would be over in a couple of months. And his fantastically successful embargo of Qatar. And his well reasoned intercession in the affairs of Lebanon.

 

None of these could be counted as a success. And yet, perhaps things are seen differently from where he stands. Would Saudi Arabia be better off doing nothing whatsoever to counter Iran's advances? Are any his regional moves massively unpopular with the Saudis?

 

The war in Yemen is a flop, which was destined to be so from the start. Just another endless insurgency quagmire. The Qatar blockade? As said on previous topics, didn't come out as planned, but not a total right off yet. Lebanon? Again too early to pronounce it a failure, although that shouldn't stop you, of course.

[LaoPo]

16 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

And yet, as Saudi Crown Princes go, he managed to concentrate quite impressive powers, ditch the competition, and for all your nonsense, apparently still popular with the masses.

 

Exactly....and the masses are the young Saudis of which some 45% (!) is younger than 24 years old.....and another 47% is 25-54...*

The older generations are about to fade away in the desert sandstorms....

 

It looks to me (but I don't know much about SA..) that MBS (as he's called) has almost total power over the entire country, army and it's total income and assets.

 

Unbelievable power that is at 32 years of age...and scary at the same time.

Hope he will use his power wisely.

 

* https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sa.html

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by LaoPo

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

And yet, as Saudi Crown Princes go, he managed to concentrate quite impressive powers, ditch the competition, and for all your nonsense, apparently still popular with the masses.

And what exactly was nonsense in what I wrote? Have I mischaracterized His management of the war in Yemen? The embargo of Qatar? His intercession in Lebanon's affairs?  The politically inept move of buying a massive yacht while slashing benefits to his people. There's still more slashing to come. Right now they may be forgiving of that. But maybe not so much in the future. A less arrogant and more astute person would have understood that. And exactly how many of those Crown Princes had the current king as his father? Yes "apparently" popular with the masses. For someone who's such a stickler about polls, you seem awfully eager to accept these reports.. Here's another piece of datum that might interest you about the youth of Saudi Arabia what kind of reform they want: 

 

The Hottest Social Media Star in the Middle East Is a Radical Saudi Cleric

How Mohammed al-Arefe became the favorite preacher of ISIS recruits—and an—and an ally of the Saudi government.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/10/mohammad-al-arefe-social-media-star-saudi-arabia-215815

 

[ilostmypassword]

17 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

None of these could be counted as a success. And yet, perhaps things are seen differently from where he stands. Would Saudi Arabia be better off doing nothing whatsoever to counter Iran's advances? Are any his regional moves massively unpopular with the Saudis?

 

The war in Yemen is a flop, which was destined to be so from the start. Just another endless insurgency quagmire. The Qatar blockade? As said on previous topics, didn't come out as planned, but not a total right off yet. Lebanon? Again too early to pronounce it a failure, although that shouldn't stop you, of course.

"Are any his regional moves massively unpopular with the Saudis?"

How about leaving out the "massively"and asking that question again?

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

"Are any his regional moves massively unpopular with the Saudis?"

How about leaving out the "massively"and asking that question again?

 

Would that be more comfortable for you to spin, then?

[ilostmypassword]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Would that be more comfortable for you to spin, then?

Because inserting "massively" wasnt about spin at all was it. Just an honest little adverb not about setting a very high bar at all.

Anyway:

Saudis 'evacuated' from villages

Yemeni Houthi rebels managed to infiltrate Saudi territory

Saudi Arabia has evacuated 240 villages because of fighting with Yemeni rebels, the UN children's fund has reported.

The Unicef statement said more than 50 schools had also been closed since fighting in neighbouring Yemen spilled across the border last week.

The body expressed its "deep concern about the escalation of the conflict".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8359492.stm

 

Saudi tribes refuse to leave Yemen border zone

A Saudi activist filmed arguments between members of tribes living in southern Saudi Arabia and a guard at a checkpoint in Jizan, a village near the border between Saudi Arabia and Yemen. Saudi authorities deem the zone around Jizan dangerous and want to evacuate the village. However, the residents are refusing to budge.

http://observers.france24.com/en/20160815-saudi-tribes-refusing-evacuate-yemen-border

And in an article  from the Telegraph about the missile fired from Yemen there's this throwaway line

"Thousands of residents have been evacuated from border towns across the southwest to create a buffer zone."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/05/missile-yemen-intercepted-saudi-capital/

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

And what exactly was nonsense in what I wrote? Have I mischaracterized His management of the war in Yemen? The embargo of Qatar? His intercession in Lebanon's affairs?  The politically inept move of buying a massive yacht while slashing benefits to his people. There's still more slashing to come. Right now they may be forgiving of that. But maybe not so much in the future. A less arrogant and more astute person would have understood that. And exactly how many of those Crown Princes had the current king as his father? Yes "apparently" popular with the masses. For someone who's such a stickler about polls, you seem awfully eager to accept these reports.. Here's another piece of datum that might interest you about the youth of Saudi Arabia what kind of reform they want: 

 

The Hottest Social Media Star in the Middle East Is a Radical Saudi Cleric

How Mohammed al-Arefe became the favorite preacher of ISIS recruits—and an—and an ally of the Saudi government.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/10/mohammad-al-arefe-social-media-star-saudi-arabia-215815

 

 

I think I have addressed the nonsensical element in your views both in another post in this topic, and on plenty of previous related topics. You seem to have a some serious personal issues vs. Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince, for one reason or another, which prevents you from discussing things from any other point of view.

 

That you pronounce things as failures or mistakes, does not necessarily make them so. Not even with hindsight, and not being in the person's shoes, on your side. The Crown Prince may be a whole lot of things, an complete idiot he ain't. Doubt he could have amassed the power he currently wields if he was one.  Also, I doubt that his considerations and priorities resonate with the criticisms you air.

 

Saudi Arabia is facing a Middle East reality in which Iran's influence and power keep growing. And it is happening at Saudi Arabia's expense. To a degree, these developments are related to Saudi Arabia's own actions, inaction, idleness, and miscalculations. That is, I think, what the Crown Prince actions are about - an attempt to restore (or shore up) Saudi Arabia's position in the Middle East, and by extension the Muslim World, and the World as a whole.

 

So whether or not his efforts work out, or even immediately contribute to achieving such goals, may not be the point. Some of it is about sending a message, drawing a line, reasserting a position. It would take more time than judge how this whole thing fares.

 

I have no idea what was the "point" you imagined you were making by linking the Politico article. Was it news to you that even in the Middle East, politics makes for some strange connections?

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Because inserting "massively" wasnt about spin at all was it. Just an honest little adverb not about setting a very high bar at all.

Anyway:

Saudis 'evacuated' from villages

Yemeni Houthi rebels managed to infiltrate Saudi territory

Saudi Arabia has evacuated 240 villages because of fighting with Yemeni rebels, the UN children's fund has reported.

The Unicef statement said more than 50 schools had also been closed since fighting in neighbouring Yemen spilled across the border last week.

The body expressed its "deep concern about the escalation of the conflict".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8359492.stm

 

Saudi tribes refuse to leave Yemen border zone

A Saudi activist filmed arguments between members of tribes living in southern Saudi Arabia and a guard at a checkpoint in Jizan, a village near the border between Saudi Arabia and Yemen. Saudi authorities deem the zone around Jizan dangerous and want to evacuate the village. However, the residents are refusing to budge.

http://observers.france24.com/en/20160815-saudi-tribes-refusing-evacuate-yemen-border

And in an article  from the Telegraph about the missile fired from Yemen there's this throwaway line

"Thousands of residents have been evacuated from border towns across the southwest to create a buffer zone."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/05/missile-yemen-intercepted-saudi-capital/

 

Other than trying to start another one of your off-topic, petty and pointless argument - what are you on about?

[ilostmypassword]

13 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I think I have addressed the nonsensical element in your views both in another post in this topic, and on plenty of previous related topics. You seem to have a some serious personal issues vs. Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince, for one reason or another, which prevents you from discussing things from any other point of view.

 

That you pronounce things as failures or mistakes, does not necessarily make them so. Not even with hindsight, and not being in the person's shoes, on your side. The Crown Prince may be a whole lot of things, an complete idiot he ain't. Doubt he could have amassed the power he currently wields if he was one.  Also, I doubt that his considerations and priorities resonate with the criticisms you air.

 

Saudi Arabia is facing a Middle East reality in which Iran's influence and power keep growing. And it is happening at Saudi Arabia's expense. To a degree, these developments are related to Saudi Arabia's own actions, inaction, idleness, and miscalculations. That is, I think, what the Crown Prince actions are about - an attempt to restore (or shore up) Saudi Arabia's position in the Middle East, and by extension the Muslim World, and the World as a whole.

 

So whether or not his efforts work out, or even immediately contribute to achieving such goals, may not be the point. Some of it is about sending a message, drawing a line, reasserting a position. It would take more time than judge how this whole thing fares.

 

I have no idea what was the "point" you imagined you were making by linking the Politico article. Was it news to you that even in the Middle East, politics makes for some strange connections?

Yes, and perhaps the many scholars of your work will hasten to supply the alleged citations. But until that happens,your assertion that mine are nonsense may have been proved to your satisfaction, but such grandiose allegations might just possibly leave some of us mightily unimpressed. Some of us might might even have the temerity to believe that you are perhaps not entirely impartial in evalutating your forays as successes.

As for the criterion you apply to judging the success of the Crown Prince's ventures, I am reminded of what George W. Bush, (another guy who was born on third base and judged to have hit a home run) said:

"History will ultimately judge the decisions that were made for Iraq and I'm just not going to be around to see the final verdict," the two-term president told CNN in a wide-ranging interview. "In other words, I'll be dead."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/24/politics/bush-interview-king/

I'm gong to go out on a huge limb and say that he failed massively.  How many more years until you arrive at your conclusion?

Edited November 24, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[Morch]

32 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Yes, and perhaps the many scholars of your work will hasten to supply the alleged citations. But until that happens,your assertion that mine are nonsense may have been proved to your satisfaction, but such grandiose allegations might just possibly leave some of us mightily unimpressed. Some of us might might even have the temerity to believe that you are perhaps not entirely impartial in evalutating your forays as successes.

As for the criterion you apply to judging the success of the Crown Prince's ventures, I am reminded of what George W. Bush, (another guy who was born on third base and judged to have hit a home run) said:

"History will ultimately judge the decisions that were made for Iraq and I'm just not going to be around to see the final verdict," the two-term president told CNN in a wide-ranging interview. "In other words, I'll be dead."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/24/politics/bush-interview-king/

I'm gong to go out on a huge limb and say that he failed massively.  How many more years until you arrive at your conclusion?

 

I have no idea what "scholars" and which specific "citations" you're going on about. Not that it matters much, anyway. If you wish to pretend we haven't been over all these points on past topics, and that they haven't been addressed, that is totally up to you. And may I point out, once again, that there is no "us".

 

I have not specified any such "criterion" as you imply, certainly nothing to do with the quote mentioned. That you insist on framing things in absurd ways is your own business.

 

Since you cannot even formulate what it is that he failed in, your pronouncement is hollow. And, of course, it fails to address another issue - whether there were better, realistic alternatives, which were not explored.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Morch

[ilostmypassword]

6 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I have no idea what "scholars" and which specific "citations" you're going on about. Not that it matters much, anyway. If you wish to pretend we haven't been over all these points on past topics, and that they haven't been addressed, that is totally up to you. And may I point out, once again, that there is no "us".

 

I have not specified any such "criterion" as you imply, certainly nothing to do with the quote mentioned. That you insist on framing things in absurd ways is your own business.

 

Since you cannot even formulate what it is that he failed in, your pronouncement is hollow. And, of course, it fails to address another issue - whether there were better, realistic alternatives, which were not explored.

You are the party who wrote this?

 

"I think I have addressed the nonsensical element in your views both in another post in this topic, and on plenty of previous related topics." 

The scholars and citations I was going on about most likely do not exist. And yet you seem to believe that your claims about proving what I have written elsewhere is nonsense are to be taken at face value apparently because you say so.  "I'll be judge, I'll be jury, said cunning old Fury, I'll try the whole cause and condemn you to death."

As for the relevance of the George Bush quotation. "So whether or not his efforts work out, or even immediately contribute to achieving such goals, may not be the point. Some of it is about sending a message, drawing a line, reasserting a position. It would take more time than judge how this whole thing fares."

Edited November 24, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[ilostmypassword]

7 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I have no idea what was the "point" you imagined you were making by linking the Politico article. Was it news to you that even in the Middle East, politics makes for some strange connections?

The point of the Pplitico article is this: on the one hand we are told that "apparently" the Crown Prince commands great popularity among the young. At the same time, there is this immensely popular preacher who espouses a particularly radical and ugly version of Islam, His speeches are given credit for persuading lots of young men to join ISIS. So perhaps the opinions of Saudi youth are not as monolithic as some of the press reports would have us believe. 

Moreover what you characterize as a "strange concession" may in fact not be so strange a concession at all, but rather due to fear of opposing this person? And if so, what does that say about the Sauid populace being "apparently" hungry for religious moderation?

And of course there are certain disincentives to voicing one's opinion in Saudi Arabia:

Saudi Arabia is to execute 14 young men for protesting – where is Theresa May’s condemnation?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/saudi-arabia-protests-execution-uk-police-training-saudi-forces-torture-theresa-may-a7878361.html

Edited November 24, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[BuaBS]

18 hours ago, webfact said:

Saudi Crown Prince calls Iran leader 'new Hitler'

No , that titel has been taken by Turkey's Erdogan.

[Rimmer]

An off topic personal attack has been removed

[Morch]

2 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

You are the party who wrote this?

 

"I think I have addressed the nonsensical element in your views both in another post in this topic, and on plenty of previous related topics." 

The scholars and citations I was going on about most likely do not exist. And yet you seem to believe that your claims about proving what I have written elsewhere is nonsense are to be taken at face value apparently because you say so.  "I'll be judge, I'll be jury, said cunning old Fury, I'll try the whole cause and condemn you to death."

As for the relevance of the George Bush quotation. "So whether or not his efforts work out, or even immediately contribute to achieving such goals, may not be the point. Some of it is about sending a message, drawing a line, reasserting a position. It would take more time than judge how this whole thing fares."

 

Try reading what I posted, without  your fabricated additions and interpretations. It clearly says that in my opinion, I have addressed what I consider to be nonsense on your posts. You may or may not share this point of view, but I do not think that there is a pressing need to rehash each and every one of these previous topics on any subsequent topic just to satisfy your obsession with petty argumentation.

 

As for your Bush quote, I think there is quite a range between what he was going on, and your own style of declaring things to be this or that, even as events are unfolding. That you attempt to cast my words as having the same scope or purpose Bush's aimed at, reflects either an inability to apply balance or a desperate attempt to deflect.