No Irish border deal before EU trade agreement - British minister

[webfact]

No Irish border deal before EU trade agreement - British minister

 

Anti-Brexit protesters wave EU and Union flags outside the Houses of Parliament in London, Britain, November 14, 2017. REUTERS/Peter Nicholls

 

LONDON (Reuters) - Britain will not resolve the question of the Irish border after Brexit until it has also agreed the outline of a trade deal with the European Union, the country's International Trade Minister Liam Fox said on Sunday.

 

The EU has said "sufficient progress" needs to be made on the border between the Republic and Northern Ireland, along with two other key issues, before EU leaders meeting at a summit on Dec. 14-15 can approve the opening of trade talks next year.

 

However, Fox said it would be very difficult to address the issue of the border while Britain's relationship with the EU after Brexit remains unclear.

 

"We don't want there to be a hard border but the United Kingdom is going to be leaving the customs union and the single market," he told Sky News.

 

"We can't get a final answer to the Irish question until we get an idea of the end state, and until we get into discussions with the European Union on the end state that will be very difficult."

 

Dublin wants a written guarantee that there will be no hard border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

 

Earlier on Sunday Ireland's EU commissioner said Dublin would "continue to play tough" over its threat to veto talks about trade after Brexit unless Britain provided guarantees over the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

 

Phil Hogan, the EU's agricultural commissioner, said that Britain, or Northern Ireland at least, should remain in the single market and the customs union to avoid a hard border dividing the island.

 

"If the UK or Northern Ireland remained in the EU customs union, or better still the single market, there would be no border issue," he told the Observer newspaper.

 

Irish and EU officials say the best way to avoid a "hard border" - which could include passport and customs controls - is to keep regulations the same north and south, but the Northern Irish party that is propping up May's government will oppose any deal that sees the province operate under different regulations to the rest of the United kingdom.

 

"We will not support any arrangements that create barriers to trade between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom or any suggestion that Northern Ireland, unlike the rest of the UK, will have to mirror European regulations," the Democratic Unionist leader Arlene Foster said on Saturday.

 

Ruth Davidson, leader of the Conservatives in Scotland, said on Sunday that the Irish border was "one of the really difficult bits" of the negotiations.

 

She said Britain's unique future position as the only country that had left the European Union meant its did not need an "off-the-shelf" solution, although she did not specify how the issue should be resolved.

 

She said any delay in moving onto trade talks would have serious repercussions for businesses.

 

"I think that it is really important that we get the transitional deal nailed down; that's not for government, that's for businesses so they know what they are doing next year and they are able to plan," she said.

 

"If we don't make it through in the next two weeks to move onto that next phase, then we are rapidly going to run out of time in terms of getting us to a good position at the time that transitional deal is supposed to take place."

 

(Reporting by Paul SandleEditing by Giles Elgood, Greg Mahlich)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-11-27

[whatsupdoc]

So the UK first agrees that there should be progress on the border problem before trade talks can start, then asks for something that is just about impossible, they reject an obvious solution given by the Irish and EU (NI stays in CU), offer no solutions themselves  and they still expect the EU to go along with that?

[Orac]

Would be interested on the politics behind this statement - is it official UK position or just Liam Fox stirring the pot. 

[brewsterbudgen]

The huge Brexit mistake continues to unravel.

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[steve187]

29 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

So the UK first agrees that there should be progress on the border problem before trade talks can start, then asks for something that is just about impossible, they reject an obvious solution given by the Irish and EU (NI stays in CU), offer no solutions themselves  and they still expect the EU to go along with that?

how can northern island stay in the CU, its part of great Britain and as such will be out of the EU, there has to be a  border control, otherwise we would have no control over any EU citizen or anyone with a schengen visa from walking in, as northern island is in the common travel area they could then travel onto England & Scotland as well as others.

[whatsupdoc]

1 minute ago, steve187 said:

how can northern island stay in the CU, its part of great Britain and as such will be out of the EU, there has to be a  border control, otherwise we would have no control over any EU citizen or anyone with a schengen visa from walking in, as northern island is in the common travel area they could then travel onto England & Scotland as well as others.

Yet Liam Fox says: "We don't want there to be a hard border but the United Kingdom is going to be leaving the customs union and the single market" 

A hard border is nearly impossible to avoid even though nobody wants it. That is why the EU asked the UK to come up with a solution before trade talks can start. The UK government really hasn't thought things through with regard to Brexit (and still doesn't it seems).

[Baerboxer]

4 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Yet Liam Fox says: "We don't want there to be a hard border but the United Kingdom is going to be leaving the customs union and the single market" 

A hard border is nearly impossible to avoid even though nobody wants it. That is why the EU asked the UK to come up with a solution before trade talks can start. The UK government really hasn't thought things through with regard to Brexit (and still doesn't it seems).

 

Unless a deal is done in which the UK doesn't leave the single market and/or customs union.

 

The Irish government, whilst usually fairly sensible, are asking for a written guarantee that can't be given as no one knows if a deal will be reached and what that deal will look like. A large section of the NI people won't accept NI being treated differently to the rest of the UK. 

 

The devil is always in the detail! And the complexities we're now seeing were gleefully glossed over by the muppets who implied leaving would be easy and vast some of money would be instantly available for the NHS etc. Only they lied.

 

The sensible thing would be, now real actual facts around what leaving means in reality are known by the public, would be to have an election or referendum fought on withdrawing Article 50 and remaining in the EU. And no, the previous Brexit referendum wasn't a once in a life time, one off only, never to be discussed again vote as some like to pretend.

[the guest]

They had a vote and that's it. Democracy must be upheld, otherwise we might as well live in a dictatorship.

[edwinchester]

4 minutes ago, the guest said:

They had a vote and that's it. Democracy must be upheld, otherwise we might as well live in a dictatorship.

Yes there was a vote and the majority voted to leave. I get and accept that.

What is so depressing is that the politicians in charge seemingly had no idea of the consequences and no idea how to implement the exit process.

Still, they won't be the ones hardest hit by the mess as they will still have their jobs and at the end of the day as usual it will be Joe Public bearing the brunt.

[smedly]

43 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Yet Liam Fox says: "We don't want there to be a hard border but the United Kingdom is going to be leaving the customs union and the single market" 

A hard border is nearly impossible to avoid even though nobody wants it. That is why the EU asked the UK to come up with a solution before trade talks can start. The UK government really hasn't thought things through with regard to Brexit (and still doesn't it seems).

firstly - N. Ireland is part of the UK - that is a fact and will not change without the will of the people in N.I.

 

Yes the UK is leaving the EU - that means they will leave the single market and customs union as it is today...Fact

 

What replaces the CU and single market will depend on how the trade talks progress and what future arrangements are negotiated, so therefore it is impossible to establish how any of the UK borders with the EU will look until those talks/negotiations have completed. The UK and ROI may end up with special arrangements but that cannot be addressed until the trade talks are completed - any idiot would understand that

 

The UK and ROI are both in agreement that they do not want a "so called" hard border between ROI (EU) and the UK 

 

I still maintain that the EU are not interested in moving forward until they have absolutely no choice, the tactic of using the Irish border as a tool is quite honestly a disgrace.

 

If progress is not made by the end of next month the UK will have no option but to walk away, after which the EU "can go whistle" and approach the UK at any time to discuss trade if they so wish, I honestly believe that the EU will continue to block any progress until this happens, they will continue to use the Irish border (an issue they created for purpose) until the UK leaves the talks, anyone that thinks the Irish PM isn't being told by Brussels what to do and say is quite frankly very naive - it is the EU's dirty tricks dept in full swing

[Orac]

Yes there was a vote and the majority voted to leave. I get and accept that.
What is so depressing is that the politicians in charge seemingly had no idea of the consequences and no idea how to implement the exit process.
Still, they won't be the ones hardest hit by the mess as they will still have their jobs and at the end of the day as usual it will be Joe Public bearing the brunt.

The problem is that the people of Northern Ireland as a U.K. region did not vote to leave the EU so the economic argument is going to take second place here even though it is clearly in the best interests of all parties for those borders to stay wide open. Irish politics are tough enough at the moment and no politician will survive there if England is given an inch in taking NI out of the EU against their will which is how it will be presented there.

I found this article over the weekend a good read on the overall situation regarding the NI issue giving a bit more context rather than the brinksmanship and sound bites that that are been constantly rammed down our throats (from both sides).

https://news.sky.com/story/ireland-the-brexit-riddle-britain-forgot-11145289


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[aslimversgwm]

1 hour ago, steve187 said:

how can northern island stay in the CU, its part of great Britain and as such will be out of the EU, there has to be a  border control, otherwise we would have no control over any EU citizen or anyone with a schengen visa from walking in, as northern island is in the common travel area they could then travel onto England & Scotland as well as others.

So what? 

[12DrinkMore]

1 hour ago, brewsterbudgen said:

The huge Brexit mistake continues to unravel.

 

I have not noticed any unravelling, the UK politicians seem more confused and incompetent every day.

[Proboscis]

Forget Liam Fox. The real problem is the DUP, the party from Northern Ireland who are keeping the Conservative Party in power by supporting them in parliament.

 

The problem for the DUP is that they want special treatment for Northern Ireland when it suits them but to be treated exactly like every other part of the UK when it suits them too.

 

For instance, abortion is illegal in Northern Ireland (because both sides want it that way) even though it is allowed everywhere else in the UK. This is something that the DUP supports.

 

Brexit is going to give rise to some strange issues for the people of the Republic of IReland who never wanted it. No one wants the hard border and with UK leaving the EU, the Irish lose the overweening right of travel to the UK (of course they keep it for the rest of the EU). Back to the abortion issue, the EU right of travel means that women from the Irish Republic who decide to have an abortion can travel perfectly legally from the Republic to the UK. When Brexit comes, that option will be gone - under law, they would only have the right to travel to somewhere else in the EU for an abortion.

[natway09]

Real " Chicken & (or) Egg " stuff here.

NI will have to accept change or come back into the UK fold

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, the guest said:

They had a vote and that's it. Democracy must be upheld, otherwise we might as well live in a dictatorship.

They had a vote on it it and they can't have another. Because democracy means never getting to say you're sorry.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, steve187 said:

how can northern island stay in the CU, its part of great Britain and as such will be out of the EU, there has to be a  border control, otherwise we would have no control over any EU citizen or anyone with a schengen visa from walking in, as northern island is in the common travel area they could then travel onto England & Scotland as well as others.

What's wrong with that?

 

They wouldn't go to Wales obviously.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Grouse

[smedly]

9 minutes ago, Proboscis said:

Forget Liam Fox. The real problem is the DUP, the party from Northern Ireland who are keeping the Conservative Party in power by supporting them in parliament.

 

The problem for the DUP is that they want special treatment for Northern Ireland when it suits them but to be treated exactly like every other part of the UK when it suits them too.

 

For instance, abortion is illegal in Northern Ireland (because both sides want it that way) even though it is allowed everywhere else in the UK. This is something that the DUP supports.

 

Brexit is going to give rise to some strange issues for the people of the Republic of IReland who never wanted it. No one wants the hard border and with UK leaving the EU, the Irish lose the overweening right of travel to the UK (of course they keep it for the rest of the EU). Back to the abortion issue, the EU right of travel means that women from the Irish Republic who decide to have an abortion can travel perfectly legally from the Republic to the UK. When Brexit comes, that option will be gone - under law, they would only have the right to travel to somewhere else in the EU for an abortion.

you are confused, including issues that have absolutely nothing to do with border trade and customs

 

There are three players involved in this issue

 

1. The UK

2. The EU

3. The Republic of Ireland as an EU member

 

The EU want a trading and customs solution for one of its borders with a foreign country (the UK) before any trading and customs talks begin, it is the EU that are insisting on this not the UK, it is the EU that are insisting on a border arrangement that they would have with any other non EU country and yet they are insisting on some alternative that they will never agree too, The ROI and the UK want an arrangement but the EU are saying "NO"

 

There is no alternative but for the UK to walk away and if the EU blocks any arrangement that the UK and the ROI attempt to put in place then that is a matter for the ROI and the EU to sort out

[whatsupdoc]

44 minutes ago, smedly said:

firstly - N. Ireland is part of the UK - that is a fact and will not change without the will of the people in N.I.

 

Yes the UK is leaving the EU - that means they will leave the single market and customs union as it is today...Fact

 

What replaces the CU and single market will depend on how the trade talks progress and what future arrangements are negotiated, so therefore it is impossible to establish how any of the UK borders with the EU will look until those talks/negotiations have completed. The UK and ROI may end up with special arrangements but that cannot be addressed until the trade talks are completed - any idiot would understand that

 

The UK and ROI are both in agreement that they do not want a "so called" hard border between ROI (EU) and the UK 

 

I still maintain that the EU are not interested in moving forward until they have absolutely no choice, the tactic of using the Irish border as a tool is quite honestly a disgrace.

 

If progress is not made by the end of next month the UK will have no option but to walk away, after which the EU "can go whistle" and approach the UK at any time to discuss trade if they so wish, I honestly believe that the EU will continue to block any progress until this happens, they will continue to use the Irish border (an issue they created for purpose) until the UK leaves the talks, anyone that thinks the Irish PM isn't being told by Brussels what to do and say is quite frankly very naive - it is the EU's dirty tricks dept in full swing

What is the point of negotiating a trade deal (which by the way might be even more complicated than the current talks) when there is a good chance it might be impossible to implement because of the border problem? The EU is right to ask for progress on the border problem first, at least there should be some idea how to solve it.

The EU is clear and consistent, the UK has no clue about many of the problems Brexit is creating. But I guess it is easy to just blame the EU....

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, the guest said:

They had a vote and that's it. Democracy must be upheld, otherwise we might as well live in a dictatorship.

Northern Ireland voted to remain; let them.

[smedly]

7 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

What is the point of negotiating a trade deal (which by the way might be even more complicated than the current talks) when there is a good chance it might be impossible to implement because of the border problem? The EU is right to ask for progress on the border problem first, at least there should be some idea how to solve it.

The EU is clear and consistent, the UK has no clue about many of the problems Brexit is creating. But I guess it is easy to just blame the EU....

The UK EU/ROI border is only a problem because the EU are making it one, if you think for a moment that because of this issue brexit won't happen is quite frankly absurd, the UK is leaving the EU ..................... that is a fact, like I said in my previous post - if the UK and ROI want a special arrangement between themselves which the EU then blocks then that is a matter for the ROI and the EU to sort out. The UK has already put forward a viable and workable solution

[Grouse]

55 minutes ago, smedly said:

firstly - N. Ireland is part of the UK - that is a fact and will not change without the will of the people in N.I.

 

Yes the UK is leaving the EU - that means they will leave the single market and customs union as it is today...Fact

 

What replaces the CU and single market will depend on how the trade talks progress and what future arrangements are negotiated, so therefore it is impossible to establish how any of the UK borders with the EU will look until those talks/negotiations have completed. The UK and ROI may end up with special arrangements but that cannot be addressed until the trade talks are completed - any idiot would understand that

 

The UK and ROI are both in agreement that they do not want a "so called" hard border between ROI (EU) and the UK 

 

I still maintain that the EU are not interested in moving forward until they have absolutely no choice, the tactic of using the Irish border as a tool is quite honestly a disgrace.

 

If progress is not made by the end of next month the UK will have no option but to walk away, after which the EU "can go whistle" and approach the UK at any time to discuss trade if they so wish, I honestly believe that the EU will continue to block any progress until this happens, they will continue to use the Irish border (an issue they created for purpose) until the UK leaves the talks, anyone that thinks the Irish PM isn't being told by Brussels what to do and say is quite frankly very naive - it is the EU's dirty tricks dept in full swing

Well, just to move a little away from the epsilon point of view, NI voted to remain, so according to the much vaunted principles of democracy, they should be allowed their way. Who really cares what a bunch of reactionaries in orange bowler hats think? Do they think William of Orange was British? Now that Bombardier is majority owned by AirBus, it has to be the optimal solution for everyone to have a reunited Ireland in the EU ?

[smedly]

15 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Northern Ireland voted to remain; let them.

and Scotland voted to remain but the UK didn't - Scotland also voted to remain part of the UK and so did N. Ireland 

 

can you spot the difference lol

 

There is none, it was the UK that voted - not Scotland Wales N. Ireland.....The UK voted .................. get it

 

By your faulty reasoning you could divide the UK into counties and even cities and allow them all to remain or stay as they voted lol   How daft is that 

Edited November 27, 2017 by smedly

[david555]

So be it ....then  the UK shall bounce the head  against an Irish veto to a trade deal , veto right given to them by the E.U......

Edited November 27, 2017 by david555

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, smedly said:

and Scotland voted to remain but the UK didn't - Scotland also voted to remain part of the UK and so did N. Ireland 

 

can you spot the difference lol

 

There is none

Scotland voted against independence after being assured that the UK would remain a member of the EU. Scotland and NI both voted for remain. If you're "Lol" you might want to read up on it before your next shift ?

[whatsupdoc]

6 minutes ago, smedly said:

The UK EU/ROI border is only a problem because the EU are making it one, if you think for a moment that because of this issue brexit won't happen is quite frankly absurd, the UK is leaving the EU ..................... that is a fact, like I said in my previous post - if the UK and ROI want a special arrangement between themselves which the EU then blocks then that is a matter for the ROI and the EU to sort out. The UK has already put forward a viable and workable solution

And what would that viable and workable solution be? How can the UK leave the Customs Union/Single Market without border checks (and what about controlling people entering or exiting the country)?

[smedly]

2 minutes ago, david555 said:

So be it ....then  the UK shall bounce the head  against an Irish veto to a trade deal given to them by the E.U......

the Republic of Ireland relies heavily on trade with the UK (not the N. Ireland part)but unfortunately they are being told what to say on this matter for maximum effect, they risk damaging a very long and prosperous relationship with the UK, something they should consider before pandering to Brussels

[taipeir]

They had a vote and that's it. Democracy must be upheld, otherwise we might as well live in a dictatorship.

...Or you could have another vote for determine what kind of Brexit you want.

In or out of the various institutions now the ramifications are becoming clearer.

That's democracy.

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[taipeir]

Forget Liam Fox. The real problem is the DUP, the party from Northern Ireland who are keeping the Conservative Party in power by supporting them in parliament.
 
The problem for the DUP is that they want special treatment for Northern Ireland when it suits them but to be treated exactly like every other part of the UK when it suits them too.
 
For instance, abortion is illegal in Northern Ireland (because both sides want it that way) even though it is allowed everywhere else in the UK. This is something that the DUP supports.
 
Brexit is going to give rise to some strange issues for the people of the Republic of IReland who never wanted it. No one wants the hard border and with UK leaving the EU, the Irish lose the overweening right of travel to the UK (of course they keep it for the rest of the EU). Back to the abortion issue, the EU right of travel means that women from the Irish Republic who decide to have an abortion can travel perfectly legally from the Republic to the UK. When Brexit comes, that option will be gone - under law, they would only have the right to travel to somewhere else in the EU for an abortion.

Irish don't lose right of travel or work as it is part of agreed common travel area, same for British to Ireland.


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[Grouse]

It is blindingly obvious that some kind of federalised or cantonalised state of Ireland is the optimum solution. Think Wallonia and Flanders (also Catholic/Protestant)

Edited November 27, 2017 by Grouse