webfact Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 High-speed railway between China and Thailand to be used for cargo, not passengers? BY ALEX LINDER Image: shanghailist The oft-delayed high-speed railway project between China and Thailand continues to find new ways of disappointing us. Earlier this week, Thailand finally approved an environmental impact assessment of the highly-anticipated rail line, removing the last remaining legal hurdle to getting tracks laid on the ground. Chinese media announced that work on the project's first phase would finally get underway on December 21st. However, some in the Thai government are now reportedly pushing for the railway to be used for cargo. Sigh. Full Story: http://shanghaiist.com/2017/12/07/china-thailand-railway-cargo-only.php -- shanghailist 2017-12-08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overherebc Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 I was looking forward to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worgeordie Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 Could it not be used for both cargo and passengers,or have cargo and passenger trains,that would be the best solution. regards worgeordie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overherebc Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 4 minutes ago, worgeordie said: Could it not be used for both cargo and passengers,or have cargo and passenger trains,that would be the best solution. regards worgeordie Make it like China and just treat the passengers like cargo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksidedog Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 (edited) Thailand should be less concerned about its own people using the line and more about millions upon millions of bad mannered Chinese tourists invading the place. Plus, carrying cargo only will dramatically reduce the death toll when it crashes, as it probably will. Edited December 8, 2017 by darksidedog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonray Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 Fill it with 'zero dollar' tour groups with an all you can eat Shrimp Buffet and post the videos on Youtube, that way at least we'll get some entertainment if not a ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave67 Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 Here we go I posted on many occasions that you cannot have High speed with Freight running on the same Railway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebell Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 What happens to rails during the rainy season? Don't they sink and shed trains? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave67 Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 13 minutes ago, worgeordie said: Could it not be used for both cargo and passengers,or have cargo and passenger trains,that would be the best solution. regards worgeordie Due the weight axel load and wheel profile of freight trains they are not compatible with High speed railway tracks, moderate speed 180kph is feasible but rail wear will be far more than passenger only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worgeordie Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 1 minute ago, Dave67 said: Due the weight axel load and wheel profile of freight trains they are not compatible with High speed railway tracks, moderate speed 180kph is feasible but rail wear will be far more than passenger only You learn something new on TVF everyday, regards Worgeordie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave67 Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 (edited) Just reading the article in full, highly likely it the railway was going to be freight only from the first concept. The high speed passenger train nonsense was just used to sell it to the public when in fact it will only benefit companies to ship goods from China to Thailand and back Edited December 8, 2017 by Dave67 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave67 Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 2 minutes ago, worgeordie said: You learn something new on TVF everyday, regards Worgeordie In the words of Trump Its my Jaab (Job) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfd101 Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 (edited) You might think that, in a well-planned project, someone might have considered the PURPOSE of the project - "What are we trying to achieve here?" - BEFORE they proceeded to allocate funds, sign contracts etc ... Edited December 8, 2017 by mfd101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nong38 Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 5 minutes ago, Dave67 said: Due the weight axel load and wheel profile of freight trains they are not compatible with High speed railway tracks, moderate speed 180kph is feasible but rail wear will be far more than passenger only Spot on Dave and I suspect the Thais don't realize this, freight is where the money is and the Chinese idea must be to get the products across land quicker than by sea for some of the journey, I cannot see Chinese and Thai passengers wanting to use this route when they can fly between the countries. This is going to be a freight line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave67 Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 2 minutes ago, mfd101 said: You might think that, in a well-planned project, someone might have considered the PURPOSE of the project - "What are we trying to achieve here? - BEFORE they proceeded to allocate funds, sign contracts etc ... Was Bullshit from the start you cannot suddenly change about such a huge project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaywalker Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 20 minutes ago, darksidedog said: Thailand should be less concerned about its own people using the line and more about millions upon millions of bad mannered Chinese tourists invading the place. Plus, carrying cargo only will dramatically reduce the death toll when it crashes, as it probably will. Unless the cargo is explosive or toxic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratcatcher Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 Anybody that knows anything basic about railways and how they work will realize that the writers of this stuff have no idea. No rail-road/way in the world transports freight/cargo/goods on "HST". Not in N.America, Europe, Asia, or Australia. The Chinese have already operated a through freight train from Yiwu to London with 40 containers with a drop off in Germany.. (Wow!!!) http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38654176 If the railroad is properly constructed, as the Chinese seem to be able to do, then freight (mostly containerized in 40' cans, ), can be moved from China down to Thai ports at suitably fast speeds. Certainly not at 300kp/h or more. The bullet trains planned for Thailand at the moment are someone's wet dream. China United States Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricardo Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 This shouldn't be news to any reader of the many recent threads here on ThaiVisa. It's why we've been calling it 'the medium-speed mainly-freight railway', for some years now, despite all the pretty pictures of various politicians with Tomy passenger-trains ! Thai politicians, like Chinese ones, need to sell the idea of the investment to their tax-payers. It's not that it doesn't make long-term sense, just that passenger-trains are more voter-friendly than freight-trains, regardless of the economics of the whole thing ... which remain somewhat murky as-yet. Incidentally the Beeb say that China's been lending to Nigeria, for the upgrade of their railway-system, at 1.5% interest-rates, although the construction is reportedly by Chinese companies. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-42172955 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YetAnother Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 1 hour ago, webfact said: some in the Thai government are now reportedly pushing for the railway to be used for cargo. the best choice; one of the mistakes the USA made was to shift cargo away from trains toward trucks; as another poster noted, why not both ? can't be that hard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave67 Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Ricardo said: This shouldn't be news to any reader of the many recent threads here on ThaiVisa. It's why we've been calling it 'the medium-speed mainly-freight railway', for some years now, despite all the pretty pictures of various politicians with Tomy passenger-trains ! Thai politicians, like Chinese ones, need to sell the idea of the investment to their tax-payers. It's not that it doesn't make long-term sense, just that passenger-trains are more voter-friendly than freight-trains, regardless of the economics of the whole thing ... which remain somewhat murky as-yet. Incidentally the Beeb say that China's been lending to Nigeria, for the upgrade of their railway-system, at 1.5% interest-rates, although the construction is reportedly by Chinese companies. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-42172955 Yep the Chinese in Africa have an assurance of debt re- payment by using Africa's Gold and Diamond diamond resources in case of default. Sounds familiar with the Goldmine taken back from the Aussie company with a section 44 for " Local health reasons". Probably more like a default if Thailand does not pay back the debt to China Edited December 8, 2017 by Dave67 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave67 Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 1 minute ago, YetAnother said: the best choice; one of the mistakes the USA made was to shift cargo away from trains toward trucks; as another poster noted, why not both ? can't be that hard... Medium speed 180k is feasible for both passenger and freight, High speed is not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob12345 Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 Interesting comments here; there is clearly more knowledge on TVF than at the newspaper reporting on this. As Thailand i would be afraid of the economics. Thailand pays for (part of) this railway meaning they need to make a return. Maybe they recoup some costs by using it for local transportation (get stuff from bkk to korat and further north) but the bulk of income must come from freight train coming from china. The problem is clear; they only have one customer. If china has to pay more fees they just load it on a container ship in china and forget about the railway. Thailand will have some difficult negotiations coming up decades from now when they invested billions and only have 1 customer with deep pockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
British Bulldog Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 Does anybody know if this is the same system that will link with the current Hi Speed railway being built in Laos, or does the Thai rail system tap into China in Northern Thailand .... anybody got a map ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 5 hours ago, Dave67 said: Here we go I posted on many occasions that you cannot have High speed with Freight running on the same Railway Who is to say they won't have two sets of tracks? Anyway, passengers are always loss makers on the railways requiring high levels of subsidy by taxpayers, so it depends on the "real" reason to build a high speed railway, which we are not privy to. Is it actually to move Thai passengers around Thailand, or is it to provide fast transit for Chinese goods to/ from Singapore or a Malaysian port? The railway through Malaya has already been completed for high speed trains. If they start developing Butterworth port we may know the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 13 minutes ago, British Bulldog said: Does anybody know if this is the same system that will link with the current Hi Speed railway being built in Laos, or does the Thai rail system tap into China in Northern Thailand .... anybody got a map ? Thailand does not have a land border with China. I think you now know the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 36 minutes ago, Bob12345 said: Interesting comments here; there is clearly more knowledge on TVF than at the newspaper reporting on this. As Thailand i would be afraid of the economics. Thailand pays for (part of) this railway meaning they need to make a return. Maybe they recoup some costs by using it for local transportation (get stuff from bkk to korat and further north) but the bulk of income must come from freight train coming from china. The problem is clear; they only have one customer. If china has to pay more fees they just load it on a container ship in china and forget about the railway. Thailand will have some difficult negotiations coming up decades from now when they invested billions and only have 1 customer with deep pockets. The economics for a high speed passenger train do not, IMO, work in LOS. Unlike Europe, most Thais will not be able to afford the ticket, unless highly susidised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 5 hours ago, ratcatcher said: Anybody that knows anything basic about railways and how they work will realize that the writers of this stuff have no idea. No rail-road/way in the world transports freight/cargo/goods on "HST". Not in N.America, Europe, Asia, or Australia. The Chinese have already operated a through freight train from Yiwu to London with 40 containers with a drop off in Germany.. (Wow!!!) http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38654176 If the railroad is properly constructed, as the Chinese seem to be able to do, then freight (mostly containerized in 40' cans, ), can be moved from China down to Thai ports at suitably fast speeds. Certainly not at 300kp/h or more. The bullet trains planned for Thailand at the moment are someone's wet dream. China United States You could very well be correct. Thailand does not have a two track system capable of handling high volumes of freight at fast speeds. This could just be a Trojan horse to build a decent freight system, and then quietly forget the passenger trains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratcatcher Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 21 minutes ago, British Bulldog said: Does anybody know if this is the same system that will link with the current Hi Speed railway being built in Laos, or does the Thai rail system tap into China in Northern Thailand .... anybody got a map ? Like many things here, nothing is ever as it seems. Some of this is really in the works and moving along. https://www.google.co.uk/search?=laos+railway+with+china&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=Uzyq7pbHd0YZUM%3A%2CGAeSRelaUjIwKM%2C_&usg=__aYjb_Qb4u9e4W0KkQxO27TxR8IA%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirlb7t8vnXAhUV5o8KHc0nBvoQ9QEITzAJ#imgdii=Otjir6_Ix7qxBM:&imgrc=XObtHMHFAKpxlM: https://laotiantimes.com/2017/02/20/everything-you-need-to-know-laos-china-railway/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave67 Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 13 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: Who is to say they won't have two sets of tracks? Anyway, passengers are always loss makers on the railways requiring high levels of subsidy by taxpayers, so it depends on the "real" reason to build a high speed railway, which we are not privy to. Is it actually to move Thai passengers around Thailand, or is it to provide fast transit for Chinese goods to/ from Singapore or a Malaysian port? The railway through Malaya has already been completed for high speed trains. If they start developing Butterworth port we may know the answer. Two different sets of Track, 2 Railways? Don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 2 minutes ago, ratcatcher said: Like many things here, nothing is ever as it seems. Some of this is really in the works and moving along. https://www.google.co.uk/search?=laos+railway+with+china&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=Uzyq7pbHd0YZUM%3A%2CGAeSRelaUjIwKM%2C_&usg=__aYjb_Qb4u9e4W0KkQxO27TxR8IA%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirlb7t8vnXAhUV5o8KHc0nBvoQ9QEITzAJ#imgdii=Otjir6_Ix7qxBM:&imgrc=XObtHMHFAKpxlM: https://laotiantimes.com/2017/02/20/everything-you-need-to-know-laos-china-railway/ Just a wild guess, but IMO only the line to Nong Kai will be laid, and it won't terminate in BKK, perhaps at Si Racha port, but more likely at the Thai/ Malaysian border, connecting with the railway in Malaya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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