Palestinians to snub Pence during visit over Jerusalem move

[rooster59]

Palestinians to snub Pence during visit over Jerusalem move

By Mohamed Abdellah and Nidal al-Mughrabi

 

FILE PHOTO: U.S. Vice President Mike Pence arrives before U.S. President Donald Trump and Singapore’s Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong (not pictured) speak at a joint statement at the White House in Washington, DC, U.S. October 23, 2017. REUTERS/Joshua Roberts/File Photo

 

CAIRO/GAZA (Reuters) - Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas will not meet U.S. Vice President Mike Pence during Pence's visit to the region this month in a snub over the U.S. recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital, the Palestinian foreign minister said on Saturday.

 

Violence erupted for a third day in Gaza in response to President Donald Trump's announcement on Wednesday, which overturned decades of U.S. policy towards the Middle East.

 

Israeli air strikes killed two Palestinian gunmen on Saturday after militants fired rockets from the enclave into Israel on Friday, which had been declared a "day of rage" by Palestinian factions.

 

Trump's recognition of Jerusalem has infuriated the Arab world and upset Western allies, who say it is a blow to peace efforts and risks sparking more violence in the region.

 

Late on Saturday, Arab foreign ministers urged the United States to abandon its decision and said the move would spur violence throughout the region. The Arab League, in a statement issued after an emergency session in Cairo, called Trump's announcement a "dangerous violation of international law" which had no legal impact and was void.

 

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reacted to critics in a statement before meetings in Paris on Sunday with French President Emmanuel Macron to be followed by a meeting with European foreign ministers in Brussels.

 

"I hear (from Europe) voices of condemnation over President Trump's historic announcement but I have not heard any condemnation for the rocket firing against Israel that has come (after the announcement) and the awful incitement against us," Netanyahu said.

 

Israel maintains that all of Jerusalem is its capital. Palestinians want East Jerusalem as the capital of a future independent state.

 

Most countries consider East Jerusalem, which Israel annexed after capturing it in a 1967 war, to be occupied territory, and say the status of the city should be left to be decided at future Israeli-Palestinian talks.

 

The Trump administration says it is still committed to Palestinian-Israeli talks, that Israel's capital would be in Jerusalem under any serious peace plan, and that it has not taken a position on the city's borders. It says the moribund negotiations can be revived only by ditching outdated policies.

 

Palestinian Foreign Minister Riyad al-Maliki said the Palestinians will be looking for a new peace talks broker instead of the United States and would seek a United Nations Security Council resolution over Trump's decision.

 

"We will seek a new mediator from our Arab brothers and the international community," Maliki told reporters in Cairo before the Arab League meeting on Trump's Jerusalem decision.

 

A Turkish presidential source said Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan and French President Emmanuel Macron will work together to try to persuade the United States to reconsider the move.

 

A possible meeting with Pence has also been turned down by Egypt's Coptic Church, MENA state news agency reported.

 

White House and U.S. State Department officials did not respond to requests for comment. Palestinian officials said Pence had been due to meet Abbas on Dec. 19.

 

Trump's adviser and son-in-law, Jared Kushner, is leading efforts to restart negotiations, though his bid has shown little public progress so far.

 

ROCKETS, AIR STRIKES

 

Palestinian militants launched at least three rockets towards Israeli towns from Gaza after dark on Friday and Israel said it responded with air strikes that targeted a weapons depot, a military compound and two weapons manufacturing facilities.

 

Hamas, which controls Gaza, confirmed the two men killed in the pre-dawn strikes belonged to the group, which has urged Palestinians to keep up the confrontation with Israeli forces.

 

However, Palestinian protests on Saturday were less intense than on the previous two days. About 60 Palestinian youths threw stones at Israeli soldiers across the Gaza-Israel border and the health ministry said at least 10 were wounded by Israeli fire.

 

In the occupied West Bank, Palestinians set fire to tires and threw stones and firebombs at Israeli troops, who responded with tear gas, water cannons, rubber bullets and, in a few instances, live fire. The Israeli military said one protester was arrested.

 

In East Jerusalem about 60 people demonstrated near the walled Old City, where paramilitary border police and officers on horseback tried to disperse the crowd with tear gas. Thirteen demonstrators were arrested and four officers were lightly injured by stones, police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said.

 

On Friday, thousands of Palestinians took to the streets in protest and two Palestinians were killed in clashes with Israeli troops on the Gaza border. Scores more were wounded there and in the West Bank. Across the Arab and Muslim worlds, thousands more protesters had gathered to express solidarity.

 

The Turkish presidential source said Erdogan and Macron agreed during a phone call that Trump's move was worrying for the region and that Turkey and France would make a joint effort to try to reverse the U.S. decision.

 

Erdogan also spoke to the presidents of Kazakhstan, Lebanon and Azerbaijan on Saturday, the source said. On Wednesday, he called an urgent meeting of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation in Turkey next week.

 

A senior United Arab Emirates (UAE) official said on Saturday that Trump's move was a "gift to radicalism".

 

"Radicals and extremists will use that to fan the language of hate," Minister of State for Foreign Affairs Anwar Gargash said at the Manama Dialogue security conference in Bahrain.

 

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-12-10

[khwaibah]

<deleted>.

Edited December 10, 2017 by metisdead
Profane acronym removed.

[Kiwiken]

Sadly Radicals will use this as an excuse to launch violent attacks. That is to be expected. It is the long term damage to the peace process. The Palestinians will not and cannot be expected to give up East Jerusalem. only by halting settlements and by negotiating in good faith can the Israelis and the Palestinians reach a peace accord. Both do much to antagonise the other but in the end perhaps with a new unbiased broker a way to peace may be found

[Morch]

 

If I was into feeling sorry for politicians, I'd feel sorry for Abbas. Trump sort of threw him under the bus with this one. For months, Abbas been more or less playing along, only to be end up looking like a fool. Cost him dearly (politically), and he doesn't have much to show for it.

 

So now, what with Hamas well into the routine banging on the war drums, Abbas needs to walk a tightrope between not looking soft, and not letting things get out of hand (which would play to his disadvantage). Hence, calling for "days of rage" etc., while Palestinian security forces cooperate with their Israeli counterparts keeping a lead on situation, at least relatively so, and so far.

 

Snubbing Pence, well...about a week until Pence shows up, so quite enough time to work something out, if Abbas so chooses. While this meeting may or may not take place, Abbas (and the PA) are in a bit of a bind here - the Palestinians rely on the USA for quite a chunk of their budget, and support of various programs and units. Then there's the Taylor Force Act, which while currently neutered, could be amended, resulting in further USA aid cuts. In terms of domestic politics, while Abbas can't be seen as weak on Jerusalem, he can't afford an economic crisis as well. Wouldn't bet on the Pence-Abbas meeting taking place as planned, but good chances (unless something really drastic happens) an alternative will be negotiated.

 

As for finding a new peace talks broker - no obvious credible candidates, and further complicated as the hypothetical mediator will need to be accepted by Israel as well. The easiest option (if not necessarily practical) would be to call for a wide international conference  etc. This would satisfy political leaders' need to be seen as doing something, but unlikely to be coordinated enough to do much in real terms.

 

So bottom line, Abbas got shafted, even more so as the statement doesn't convey any real change. And worse, he doesn't seem to have much of back up plan geared to deal with developments. Acting tough is all very well, but to paraphrase Vaya Con Dios - " What are you gonna do, when the days of rage are over?".

[Jingthing]

Snubbing Pence makes sense to me.

The base that Pence represents, the Christian American right wing "evangelical" movement is the main group that trump was pandering to with his idiotic reckless move, that had very little to do with the Middle East, and a lot to do with checking off a "done" list item on his campaign promises to his deplorable DOMESTIC base. 

Fun factoid -- Pence's nickname when he was in congress was DENSE. 

[dexterm]

The PA is quite right to snub Pence.

 

Now that the US has been exposed well and truly for the dishonest broker it always has been, merely tut tutting as Israel repeatedly broke UN resolutions, international law and the Oslo Peace Accords.

 

If the US really wanted a peace deal they could have imposed one  years ago with the financial and political clout they have.

 

On this rare occasion I have to agree with Morch. I think Abbas will be hard pressed to come up with another two state solution peace negotiator, well one that Israel will accept anyway, unless it's accompanied by the real threat of sanctions consequences. When the French arranged the Paris Peace Conference in January this year (the second in 12 months),  attended by 70 states and 4 international organizations, Israel not only rejected this initiative out of hand, but they didn't even bother to show up. So much for Netanyahu's:   we are willing to discuss peace any time any place myth.

 

Time for a new approach then.

 

Abbas himself has recently called for an end to apartheid replaced with a one man one vote state. Saeb Erekat repeated the same last Wednesday: “Now is the time to transform the struggle for one state with equal rights for everyone living in historic Palestine, from the river to the sea.”'
https://972mag.com/trump-confirms-what-israelis-and-palestinians-already-know/131315/

 

And if the old Palestinian guard or Trump cant pull a two state solution hat out of the bag soon, or Israel and the Palestinians can't find a mutually agreeable two state solution negotiator, then the younger Palestinian generation will not tolerate yet another 20 years of futile stalling holding out fantasy carrots.

 

The one state solution will gain traction as the only viable alternative, and perhaps a new guard will take up the negotiating reins and strategy if the old guard can't.

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by dexterm

[midas]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Snubbing Pence makes sense to me.

The base that Pence represents, the Christian American right wing "evangelical" movement is the main group that trump was pandering to with his idiotic reckless move, that had very little to do with the Middle East, and a lot to do with checking off a "done" list item on his campaign promises to his deplorable DOMESTIC base. 

Fun factoid -- Pence's nickname when he was in congress was DENSE. 

Yes I also thought he was checking off a done list - probably provided to him by Jared Kushner.

 

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, midas said:

Yes I also thought he was checking off a done list - probably provided to him by Jared Kushner.

 

It was trump's list in the campaign but I have no doubt that Jared is supporting this action. Interesting observation in the news about this.

Jared has been talking closely with the Saudis so they've been consulted about this and regardless of what they might say publicly, they still seem to be allying with trump generally. 

Edited December 10, 2017 by Jingthing

[Morch]

41 minutes ago, dexterm said:

The PA is quite right to snub Pence.

 

Now that the US has been exposed well and truly for the dishonest broker it always has been, merely tut tutting as Israel repeatedly broke UN resolutions, international law and the Oslo Peace Accords.

 

If the US really wanted a peace deal they could have imposed one  years ago with the financial and political clout they have.

 

On this rare occasion I have to agree with Morch. I think Abbas will be hard pressed to come up with another two state solution peace negotiator, well one that Israel will accept anyway, unless it's accompanied by the real threat of sanctions consequences. When the French arranged the Paris Peace Conference in January this year (the second in 12 months),  attended by 70 states and 4 international organizations, Israel not only rejected this initiative out of hand, but they didn't even bother to show up. So much for Netanyahu's:   we are willing to discuss peace any time any place myth.

 

Time for a new approach then.

 

Abbas himself has recently called for an end to apartheid replaced with a one man one vote state. Saeb Erekat repeated the same last Wednesday: “Now is the time to transform the struggle for one state with equal rights for everyone living in historic Palestine, from the river to the sea.”'
https://972mag.com/trump-confirms-what-israelis-and-palestinians-already-know/131315/

 

And if the old Palestinian guard or Trump cant pull a two state solution hat out of the bag soon, or Israel and the Palestinians can't find a mutually agreeable two state solution negotiator, then the younger Palestinian generation will not tolerate yet another 20 years of futile stalling holding out fantasy carrots.

 

The one state solution will gain traction as the only viable alternative, and perhaps a new guard will take up the negotiating reins and strategy if the old guard can't.

 

 

 

Negotiations do not work when sides insist on their "rights", but when they are willing to (at least temporarily) act smart. Snubbing Pence may answer a short term political need, but is doesn't do anything for the Palestinians. Your standing version of what might have been aren't relevant nor particularly interesting - the "if they really wanted, they could have" can be applied to both sides as well. Not that you are likely to acknowledge that, being fixated on supposed "right".

 

Neither Israel nor the Palestinians were invited to the Paris Peace Conference mentioned. Guess you just forgot that the Palestinians did not attend as well.  Effective sanctions exist mostly in your imagination and wishful thinking.

 

As for your standard fare one-state nonsense:

 

You quote one member of that Palestinian "old guard" as an authority. Allege another Palestinian "old guard" supports it. Even if the words of two long term politicians and negotiators were to be taken at face value, one would have to ask - what are you on about?

 

Palestinians are not about to just throw away their national ambitions, and vie for peaceful integration with Israel. And even among those who do claim to support this, the sentiment isn't one of acceptance or reconciliation. Considering the state Palestinian governance and divisions are in, the notion that what you are trying to sell is what's actually on the menu, is quite out there. What you offer is exactly such a "fantasy carrot" as the ones you warn about.

 

Do you honestly think that Abbas will dismantle the Palestinian Authority and give up his cushy position? Risk the consequences of not being protected? Do you think his people in powerful positions are up for that? Or that the Hamas is about to join your fantasy ride? What "new guard" leadership are you on about?

 

 

[dexterm]

26 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

 

Negotiations do not work when sides insist on their "rights", but when they are willing to (at least temporarily) act smart. Snubbing Pence may answer a short term political need, but is doesn't do anything for the Palestinians. Your standing version of what might have been aren't relevant nor particularly interesting - the "if they really wanted, they could have" can be applied to both sides as well. Not that you are likely to acknowledge that, being fixated on supposed "right".

 

Neither Israel nor the Palestinians were invited to the Paris Peace Conference mentioned. Guess you just forgot that the Palestinians did not attend as well.  Effective sanctions exist mostly in your imagination and wishful thinking.

 

As for your standard fare one-state nonsense:

 

You quote one member of that Palestinian "old guard" as an authority. Allege another Palestinian "old guard" supports it. Even if the words of two long term politicians and negotiators were to be taken at face value, one would have to ask - what are you on about?

 

Palestinians are not about to just throw away their national ambitions, and vie for peaceful integration with Israel. And even among those who do claim to support this, the sentiment isn't one of acceptance or reconciliation. Considering the state Palestinian governance and divisions are in, the notion that what you are trying to sell is what's actually on the menu, is quite out there. What you offer is exactly such a "fantasy carrot" as the ones you warn about.

 

Do you honestly think that Abbas will dismantle the Palestinian Authority and give up his cushy position? Risk the consequences of not being protected? Do you think his people in powerful positions are up for that? Or that the Hamas is about to join your fantasy ride? What "new guard" leadership are you on about?

 

 

>>Negotiations do not work when sides insist on their "rights", but when they are willing to (at least temporarily) act smart.
.... then perhaps Israeli negotiators should stop moving the goalposts by insisting on the right to be recognized as a Jewish State, after the Palestinians have already recognized the right of Israel to exist.

 

The Palestinians do not have a viable nation left to have national ambitions about. The one state solution is becoming an inevitability.

 

As I said above, if Trump can pull a two state solution acceptable to both sides out of the hat soon, all well and good. Big if. But younger Palestinians will not wait forever.

 

Trump has already stolen time from the negotiating clock causing the snub to Pence, assuming he can make the most outrageous announcement undermining the Palestinians and his new Arab buddies then expect everything to revert to normal instantly.

 

Obsolete leaders have been swept away before now, if they can't deliver the goods.

The jailed Mahwan Barghouti is more popular than Abbas and Hamas's Haniyeh. Maybe he will be the Palestinian Mandela.
 

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>Negotiations do not work when sides insist on their "rights", but when they are willing to (at least temporarily) act smart.
.... then perhaps Israeli negotiators should stop moving the goalposts by insisting on the right to be recognized as a Jewish State, after the Palestinians have already recognized the right of Israel to exist.

 

The Palestinians do not have a viable nation left to have national ambitions about. The one state solution is becoming an inevitability.

 

As I said above, if Trump can pull a two state solution acceptable to both sides out of the hat soon, all well and good. Big if. But younger Palestinians will not wait forever.

 

Trump has already stolen time from the negotiating clock causing the snub to Pence, assuming he can make the most outrageous announcement undermining the Palestinians and his new Arab buddies then expect everything to revert to normal instantly.

 

Obsolete leaders have been swept away before now, if they can't deliver the goods.

The jailed Mahwan Barghouti is more popular than Abbas and Hamas's Haniyeh. Maybe he will be the Palestinian Mandela.
 

 

Perhaps you should stop with the incessant rehashing of false or incorrect talking points which were addressed on many a past topic. This OP deals with the Palestinian side's reaction and position. If you wish to avoid discussing it, and spin everything as being about Israel, go ahead. Just exemplifies the level of discussion you can offer. 

 

The Palestinians do not have a "viable nation left"? Just like that? Because Trump said something? Because you say so? Are the Palestinians aware of this? Where do you even come up with such nonsense?

 

And you either miss or ignore a point made over and over again - the Palestinian interests are not best served by playing a waiting game. Instead of waiting for Trump, it would be refreshing to see a Palestinian leader actually publicly pushing forward a proposal of his own. Given that Trump is a moron, why expect him to deliver? Why not be proactive for a change? Trump didn't steal time from anyone. Nothing prevented the Palestinians with pushing things along if they were in a hurry. Can't deny Palestinian accountability for each and every instance related to the conflict or to negotiations.

 

Frankly, that you say this or that about "younger Palestinians" doesn't mean a whole lot. You don't seem to have all that much in depth insight into older Palestinians' views, or even the with regard to these of the   Palestinian leadership. Quite telling the only one you can name is Marwan Barghouti (who's popular because he's out of the way and not directly involved in the going-ons).

[Scott]

A post violating Fair Use Policy and reply removed.  

[dexterm]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Perhaps you should stop with the incessant rehashing of false or incorrect talking points which were addressed on many a past topic. This OP deals with the Palestinian side's reaction and position. If you wish to avoid discussing it, and spin everything as being about Israel, go ahead. Just exemplifies the level of discussion you can offer. 

 

The Palestinians do not have a "viable nation left"? Just like that? Because Trump said something? Because you say so? Are the Palestinians aware of this? Where do you even come up with such nonsense?

 

And you either miss or ignore a point made over and over again - the Palestinian interests are not best served by playing a waiting game. Instead of waiting for Trump, it would be refreshing to see a Palestinian leader actually publicly pushing forward a proposal of his own. Given that Trump is a moron, why expect him to deliver? Why not be proactive for a change? Trump didn't steal time from anyone. Nothing prevented the Palestinians with pushing things along if they were in a hurry. Can't deny Palestinian accountability for each and every instance related to the conflict or to negotiations.

 

Frankly, that you say this or that about "younger Palestinians" doesn't mean a whole lot. You don't seem to have all that much in depth insight into older Palestinians' views, or even the with regard to these of the   Palestinian leadership. Quite telling the only one you can name is Marwan Barghouti (who's popular because he's out of the way and not directly involved in the going-ons).

>>The Palestinians do not have a "viable nation left"? Just like that? Because Trump said something? Because you say so? Are the Palestinians aware of this? Where do you even come up with such nonsense?

 

You are either being obtuse or disingenuous.

Take a look at any map of settlements in the West Bank... a patch work quilt of Palestinian Bantustans comprising 15% of a homeland that used to be 92% Muslim and Christian Palestinian, before European colonizers arrived.

 

In the face of the massive facts on the ground that Israel has created, Pence, Kushner or whoever, if they ever get a chance to speak to Palestinian negotiators again, will have to produce some incredible conjury to satisfy the Palestinian and Arab world bottom line, that has been on the table since 2002.

East Jerusalem as its capital
Land swaps to Palestine to make it up to the 22% of historic Palestine. (the 67 borders before illegal occupation)
A contiguous viable state..maybe a rail tunnel to Gaza
Right of return or compensation for ethnically cleansed refugees.
Recognition of Israel, but not as a Jewish state, compromising the status of Palestinians who live there.
Huge evacuation of illegal settler outposts deep within Palestine

 

I doubt very much if they can do it, but I am willing to be pleasantly surprised.

 

 But if it is mission impossible, the Palestinians should adopt a new strategy - a one state solution with equal rights for all.

 

Then add to that the annexation of Jerusalem and the proposed E1 corridor.
"Critics say that the plan aims at preventing any possible expansion of East Jerusalem by creating a physical link between Ma'ale Adumim and Jerusalem, and that it would effectively complete a crescent of Israeli settlements around East Jerusalem dividing it from the rest of the West Bank and its Palestinian population centres, and create a continuous Jewish population between Jerusalem and Ma'ale Adumim. It would also nearly bisect the West Bank jeopardizing the prospects of a contiguous Palestinian state."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E1_(Jerusalem)

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by dexterm

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

I am being neither obtuse nor indigenous, simply not into your hyperbole statements. Same goes for them bits you repeatedly try to sneak in to posts as "facts". That you use each and every post as a platform for vitriolic repetitive presentation of the same hateful agenda does not make the content, or the view presented, accurate or correct.

 

Once more - "no viable nation left" - do the Palestinians share your point of view? Was there some general announcement that all is lost? That past aspirations are left behind? That you opine this doesn't carry a whole lot of force.

 

And for the usual tiresome dismantling of your nonsense:

 

The baseline for a future Palestinian state is not, as you dishonestly imply, the whole territory in question (as in "river to the sea"). That you need to go back to this baseline (never mind that it was not a unified Palestinian "homeland") reflects that in your mind, Israel's existence is illegitimate and unacceptable. This level of bias undermines any pretense for addressing the issue in anything resembling a rational discussion, but turns it into another one of your soapbox presentations.

 

As your own post details, it is not that a Palestinian state is impossible, but that achieving an agreement and implementing it are very difficult. That is not quite the same as your original hyperbole statement about the Palestinians having "no viable nation left".

 

Nothing in your post, as usual, referring to Arab and Palestinian rejectionism playing a part in the creation of current conditions. Nothing which address simple truths - that the only limited gains by the Palestinian side were achieved via negotiations, and that their current conditions represent the closest they have come (to date) to achieving their national aspirations.

 

That you repeat the falsehood about the offer being "on the table since 2002" doesn't change facts - it was not uniformly accepted and endorsed by the Palestinians (and similarly, not the whole of the Arab world and other regional players). Painting it as a "mission impossible" without any reference to the Palestinians not fully on board is simply dishonest.

 

So which is it - hysterical hyperbolic "no viable notion" or "offer on the table" and "willing to be pleasantly surprised" (not that you will be satisfied with the above proposal, but eh).

 

The rest of your one-state waffle does not address any of the issues often pointed out - are the Palestinian into this? Willing to change their long held beliefs, strategy and ways? Is portraying such a move as reflecting a civil rights struggle and accurate description? Are Palestinians invested in integration and peaceful coexistence?

 

You keep going on about time being in favor of the Palestinians. This only applies if one is not a Palestinian, and is not actually interested or informed as to Palestinian views and circumstances. Perspiring some fantasy version of multiculturalism in a region not known for tolerance, and involving two populations with a long history of bad blood is not in anyone's favor. The sad truth is that intransigence and delaying tactics hurt the Palestinians - one has only to consider that what they could have accepted at past historical and political junctions was way better than what they may accept nowadays.

 

[mrwebb8825]

On 12/10/2017 at 6:27 PM, dexterm said:

Time for a new approach then.

THIS is exactly what has happened and you are posting support for its happening - you're just PO'd that it was President Trump that did it. 

[F4UCorsair]

Pence will lose no sleep over this token action, and why would he? The Palenistinians are their own worst enemies.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app