EU tells Poland to reverse judicial reforms or face sanctions

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

You see those effects because of the corrupt judiciary installed by previous regimes. A judiciary which was self-perpetuating under previous 'separation'. The so-called controversial new laws are an attempt by the current government to deal with this ingrained judicial corruption.

If there is one thing the uber Hard Brexiteers and their Conspiracy Theory fantasies do not like at all it is an independent judiciary. Enemies Of The People.

Edited December 21, 2017 by SheungWan

[Khun Han]

11 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

If there is one thing the uber Hard Brexiteers and their Conspiracy Theory fantasies do not like at all it is an independent judiciary. Enemies Of The People.

 

Poland doesn't have an independent judiciary. It's judiciary was appointed by, and is hand-in-glove with the post-communist regime. You know? The one which spawned Donald Tusk? What's he up to nowadays? Anyone know?

[observer90210]

18 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Look at a CHFEUR one year chart. Never mind.

 

you surely have a point. mine is just that I wanna be safe, not make any profit. happy christmas.

[Becker]

11 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

My point is, there are vast differences in GDP and general wealth across the EU 27, so lumping them all together invalidates your original point. It would stand up if all 27 were like Germany or the UK in terms of their economies.

That there are differences in GDP across the EU invalidates my point (which is that it's easier to get better deals for a block of 500 million people than a single country of 60 million)???

Are you drunk?

[nauseus]

14 hours ago, Grouse said:

Interesting Sir Dud

 

I will respond over night when I have had a chance to consider your erudite contribution.

Don't hold your breath there dude, mine took months! 

[CG1 Blue]

7 hours ago, Becker said:

That there are differences in GDP across the EU invalidates my point (which is that it's easier to get better deals for a block of 500 million people than a single country of 60 million)???

Are you drunk?

I'll try to make it a bit easier for you. Using the number of people in a bloc is a poor measure.  The number of people does not tell you how much buying power that bloc has. I used an example of Nigeria and Bangladesh in an attempt to demonstrate my point.

How excited do you think other nations will be to get into the Bulgarian or Romanian markets?  

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

3 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

I'll try to make it a bit easier for you. Using the number of people in a bloc is a poor measure.  The number of people does not tell you how much buying power that bloc has. I used an example of Nigeria and Bangladesh in an attempt to demonstrate my point.

How excited do you think other nations will be to get into the Bulgarian or Romanian markets?  

 

 

Well, if you want to do it by GDP

then the total eurozone gdp is 18.06 trillion dollars

the uk's gdp was 2.62 trillion dollars.

So, the UK has about 14.5 percent of total GDP

The rest of the EU has about 85.5 percent of total GDP.

I suspect that to your way of thinking a 14.5 is a bigger number than an 85.5

But not to most of us.

[CG1 Blue]

10 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Well, if you want to do it by GDP

then the total eurozone gdp is 18.06 trillion dollars

the uk's gdp was 2.62 trillion dollars.

So, the UK has about 14.5 percent of total GDP

The rest of the EU has about 85.5 percent of total GDP.

I suspect that to your way of thinking a 14.5 is a bigger number than an 85.5

But not to most of us.

No, I'm fine with maths thanks.

14.5% is a huge percentage of the total. It shows how much of a blow to the EU that the UK leaving is. An Almost fatal blow I'd say.

 

 

[tomacht8]

18 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Well, if you want to do it by GDP

then the total eurozone gdp is 18.06 trillion dollars

the uk's gdp was 2.62 trillion dollars.

So, the UK has about 14.5 percent of total GDP

The rest of the EU has about 85.5 percent of total GDP.

I suspect that to your way of thinking a 14.5 is a bigger number than an 85.5

But not to most of us.

Good discussion.
The attractiveness of countries for trade depends on many factors.
For example, the attractiveness of Romania as a trading partner can still be very high, even if the population and the GDP numbers are low. The timeline is also significant. Rumania has e.g. very fertile fields for agriculture. The farmers there need efficient technology and machinery. More efficient, more effective and more market-oriented farming management/machinery will result in higher yields. They can then sell their agricultural products on the EU market without barriers, and can buy all other stuff they need. I see Romania as an important agricultural producer in the future. 

[tomacht8]

19 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

,No, I'm fine with maths thanks.

14.5% is a huge percentage of the total. It shows how much of a blow to the EU that the UK leaving is. An Almost fatal blow I'd say.

 

 

It is undisputed that Brexit represents a loss for both, the EU economy and the UK economy.

Edited December 22, 2017 by tomacht8

[aright]

The EU is calling the Polish Government authoritarian. This hypocrisy is stunning in light of the fact they threaten Poland with disciplinary action in reference to reforms of the judiciary. Regardless of the justice of the reforms at least the Polish Prime Minister was elected and supported by an opinion poll which gave 81% approval to the change. The EU's reaction has been to try and punish the Poles by taking away their EU voting rights, a fitting symbol for it's own contempt for democracy.   

[CG1 Blue]

2 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

It is undisputed that Brexit represents a loss for both, the EU economies and the UK economy.

 But it doesn't have to be, if the EU agree to a sensible Brexit deal.

[tomacht8]

5 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

 But it doesn't have to be, if the EU agree to a sensible Brexit deal.

I think both sides are interested in minimizing there losses.
The biggest problem is the tight negotiation time.
As it turns out, the UK as well as the EU has nothing to give away for free in the negotiations.

[ilostmypassword]

12 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

 But it doesn't have to be, if the EU agree to a sensible Brexit deal.

Unfortunately, most Brexiters seem to have the idea that a sensible deal is one that gives the UK most of the privileges it now enjoys and saddles it with none of the liabilities. What they mostly seem unwilling to understand is that to give the UK the kind of deal Brexiters think is fair, would mean that for EU members, the disadvantages would outweigh the advantages. That's not going to happen. 

[ilostmypassword]

3 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

Good discussion.
The attractiveness of countries for trade depends on many factors.
For example, the attractiveness of Romania as a trading partner can still be very high, even if the population and the GDP numbers are low. The timeline is also significant. Rumania has e.g. very fertile fields for agriculture. The farmers there need efficient technology and machinery. More efficient, more effective and more market-oriented farming management/machinery will result in higher yields. They can then sell their agricultural products on the EU market without barriers, and can buy all other stuff they need. I see Romania as an important agricultural producer in the future. 

Good point. And aot just that. But because the nations of the eastern part of the EU are still developing their growth rate will almost certainly be higher than the EU average.

[ilostmypassword]

3 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

No, I'm fine with maths thanks.

14.5% is a huge percentage of the total. It shows how much of a blow to the EU that the UK leaving is. An Almost fatal blow I'd say.

 

 

Are you aware that growth in the EU is now outpacing growth in the UK. And the point you were trying to make before was that the population was irrelevant to the question of negotiating power. Is GDP also irrelevant. Who do you think is going to have more clout in negotiations: A market with a 2.6 trilllion dollar economy or a market with a 15.4 trillion dollar economy?

[citybiker]

I think both sides are interested in minimizing there losses.
The biggest problem is the tight negotiation time.
As it turns out, the UK as well as the EU has nothing to give away for free in the negotiations.

The negotiation time for Phase 2 (trade) will be very questionable indeed, especially if you compare the EU's previous examples with Canada & Japan.

The EU (Barnier) will continue on his hard ball stance, although that isn't part of his mandate, his job is to ensure a mutually agreeable situation is achieved/concluded prior to being approved by the other MS's. Unfortunately, he's also made it clear no cherry picking as of course other MS's will not be happy.

The U.K. Isn't seeking anything free, however also not being punished is also the aim, which no matter how much Brussel's continue to deny, is their aim......to avoid other MS from considering going the same route.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Khun Han]

6 hours ago, aright said:

The EU is calling the Polish Government authoritarian. This hypocrisy is stunning in light of the fact they threaten Poland with disciplinary action in reference to reforms of the judiciary. Regardless of the justice of the reforms at least the Polish Prime Minister was elected and supported by an opinion poll which gave 81% approval to the change. The EU's reaction has been to try and punish the Poles by taking away their EU voting rights, a fitting symbol for it's own contempt for democracy.   

 

The EU's reaction is what it is because the attempt to modify a corrupt, self-perpetuating judiciary will remove some degree of EU control from Poland. The aforesaid corrupt judiciary are, for the most part, the EU's people, put in place by the same post-Soviet crew which spawned Donald Tusk.

[Becker]

22 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

I'll try to make it a bit easier for you. Using the number of people in a bloc is a poor measure.  The number of people does not tell you how much buying power that bloc has. I used an example of Nigeria and Bangladesh in an attempt to demonstrate my point.

How excited do you think other nations will be to get into the Bulgarian or Romanian markets?  

 

 

The buying power of the EU is well known. Dragging Nigera and Bangladesh into this is just......well, less than relevant.

We do understand that you're not a fan of the EU but by coming up with silly deflections you just come across as someone who's a bit desperate. 

Edited December 23, 2017 by Becker

[aright]

It hasn't been widely reported  but the Nationalists swept the board at the recent elections in Corsica.

As a result they are calling for the Island's separation from Paris.

What will Macron do? Is this France's Catalonia

[stevenl]

13 minutes ago, aright said:

It hasn't been widely reported  but the Nationalists swept the board at the recent elections in Corsica.

As a result they are calling for the Island's separation from Paris.

What will Macron do? Is this France's Catalonia

Catalunya is rich, Corsica far from.

 

But how is this connected to the reform of Poland's judiciary system?

Edited December 23, 2017 by stevenl

[aright]

20 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Catalunya is rich, Corsica far from.

 

But how is this connected to the reform of Poland's judiciary system?

Its not. It's a comment on the difficulties the EU has with recalcitrant states and countries including Poland. Hardly worth a new thread i would have thought but if you think it deserving go ahead, open one.  As for their relative wealth its not an issue where democracy is concerned......it becomes a big issue however if their demands needs are ignored.

[tomacht8]

1 hour ago, aright said:

Its not. It's a comment on the difficulties the EU has with recalcitrant states and countries including Poland. Hardly worth a new thread i would have thought but if you think it deserving go ahead, open one.  As for their relative wealth its not an issue where democracy is concerned......it becomes a big issue however if their demands needs are ignored.

Finally, there is a sequence of discipline.
The Catalans simply make before an iligale plebiscite, which contradicts the constitution of the country.
The Scots are kindly asking if it is allowed to make a referendum, and the Corsicans have always been making a lot of wind. And the government of Poland is currently trying to restrict the separation of powers and to control the media.
This is daily Business for the EU.
If everyone can talk to each other and realize win -win situations, that's just fine.
Without strong intra-European structures we would again see small wars and bomb Terror within the EU borders.
This is one of the core tasks of the EU not to allow this regional violence nonsense.

 

[aright]

10 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

This is one of the core tasks of the EU not to allow this regional violence nonsense.

So using your democratic vote is regional violence is it? The only violence I can recall was that used by the Spanish Government against Catalan peaceful demonstrators.

The European Commission, of course, likes to talk about democracy as a European value. It defines this as what Brussels wants  not what the people want. Time and again with a ballot in front of them a majority of voters from those in Denmark who rejected the Maastricht  Treaty in 1992, to the UK last year, to the Catalonian voters and now the Corsicans have ticked the wrong box were the EU is concerned. In their disregard for democracy they ignored these voters.Currently the Commission has decided to make Poland the Whipping Boy of the EU.. Who will be next?

Resentment in the EU on the Democratic Deficit is growing daily. 

 

[tomacht8]

5 minutes ago, aright said:

Resentment in the EU on the Democratic Deficit is growing daily. 

 

555
You are right. Luckily we have regular elections in Europe and in the UK.
There are even regular elections to the EU Parliament.
There are even Referendums.
Good luck with Brexit.
Why are you still taking care of the other EU Member States?

 

[aright]

11 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

555
You are right. Luckily we have regular elections in Europe and in the UK.
There are even regular elections to the EU Parliament.
There are even Referendums.
Good luck with Brexit.
Why are you still taking care of the other EU Member States?

 

Three statements , a salutation and a question I can't begin to understand. Explain?

[tomacht8]

18 minutes ago, aright said:

Three statements , a salutation and a question I can't begin to understand. Explain?

Do not snip a post to one sentence if it is not necessary.
What i have to explain?
 

 

[aright]

You sound like an EU Commissioner.Thanks for your advice but please let me present my replies in my own way.

Its one sentence because I have no argument with your statements or salutation.

I just don't understand your last sentence/question. I am happy to answer the question as best I can but can only do that if I understand it.

In return I hope you will answer my first sentence which was a question or the Who will be next? question..

[i claudius]

Good discussion.
The attractiveness of countries for trade depends on many factors.
For example, the attractiveness of Romania as a trading partner can still be very high, even if the population and the GDP numbers are low. The timeline is also significant. Rumania has e.g. very fertile fields for agriculture. The farmers there need efficient technology and machinery. More efficient, more effective and more market-oriented farming management/machinery will result in higher yields. They can then sell their agricultural products on the EU market without barriers, and can buy all other stuff they need. I see Romania as an important agricultural producer in the future. 

I see them as beggers and sellers of the big issue

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Dagnabbit]

On 12/21/2017 at 12:37 PM, ilostmypassword said:

So, in your view, national sovereignty is sacred? And if they start jailing their political opponents? Of if they create concentration camps? The EU should still do nothing?

 

Absolutely. You hit the nail on the head. Their politicians can do as they see fit. They should be allowed to do what they want. The public votes people into power and the politicians implement policy, without having the EU dictate to them. Anything else means they are not in power.

 

Now, of course, your sensationalist argument is meant to close of discussion. It's a ludicrous argument.  If any country created concentration camps, it would be down to the rest of the world, specifically the UN to intervene. What would happen if the EU dictated that they create concentration camps or if the EU started to jail political opponents? Same thing right?

 

This is simply a matter of who should be in control. Bringing silly arguments like this along does nothing to prove that the EU should be in control.