4-Year Professional Visas Get Green Light

[impulse]

8 minutes ago, mjnaus said:

Been there, done that and will never bother again. Having access to literally a world of awesome talent, rolling the dice with Thai staff just isn't worth it. 

 

Can you see where an attitude like that would make you a less than desirable candidate?   Wanna live in Thailand, but don't want to hire, train and develop the 4.0 skillsets of the locals?  Kind of defeats the purpose of the program.

 

Edited December 25, 2017 by impulse

[JackThompson]

48 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Hire good Thai staff, there are loads around. You don't get them for peanuts though.

I am a big supporter of high-wage civilization, having watched it undermined in my passport-country.  There are some types of jobs/commerce which can be protected, such as manufacturing, construction, and local-services, to preserve as many good-paying careers as possible. 

 

Unfortunately, in the "digital marketplace," limiting staff to higher-wage nations cannot be done easily for smaller digital-businesses - as the competition will undermine them by using lower-cost staff.  Even the "big companies" in the West who are rolling in cash (Google, Facebook, etc), import much of their on-site labor, to limit costs and maximize profits.

 

The best one can hope to do, from a govt econ-planning angle, is to encourage the founders/owners of smaller digital-enterprises, and well-paid online-workers, to move to one's nation, so that they spend their incomes into the local economy.  Over time, when/if they reach significant success, they may indulge in office-space and "on site staff," in addition to less-expensive remote-staff.

 

Until now, and continuing to the extent obtaining this visa is difficult to obtain, an artificial barrier has been created that keeps smaller business-owners and remote tech-workers from spending their incomes into the Thai economy.  There is no upside to doing this, that I can think of.

[impulse]

2 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The best one can hope to do, from a govt econ-planning angle, is to encourage the founders/owners of smaller digital-enterprises, and well-paid online-workers, to move to one's nation, so that they spend their incomes into the local economy.  Over time, when/if they reach significant success, they may indulge in office-space and "on site staff," in addition to less-expensive remote-staff.

 

The problem with that is for every one of the legitimate, high skilled candidates, there will be dozens of applicants whose main motive for being in Thailand is no more than cheap sex and consequence free booze.  If you're not going to start right off the bat hiring, training and developing the needed skillsets of the locals, the odds that you'll eventually get around to meeting the purpose of the program are pretty slim. 

 

It's telling that you characterize hiring the locals as "an indulgence".   It's the main driver for the program, not some kind of wishful, but unlikely consequence of it.

 

[samran]

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

This is for serious entrepreneurs, not for somebody who can only build a website or sell bits and bobs and couldn't survive on that money in the west.

 

1 hour ago, genericptr said:

That makes more sense I guess but I don't know why you wouldn't just get a work permit then and hire people if you're so "serious". From the news I thought this was more a formal way to acknowledge this new category of people who have various streams of income and afford to live in Thailand but don't technically work on Thai soil as such. The bar to entry is too high from my experience with these people and myself, but what do I know.

It was highlighted by industry groups to the government earlier in 2017 that there is a lot of talent sitting here in Thailand working in what was a legal grey area. We had one example for the Deputy PM of one of the worlds best coders sitting here in Thailand who was basically doing visa runs. Everyone agreed that the situation was farcical and it would be smarter to have those people here in an offical capacity.

 

This visa is designed for people like that. Once you have the visa, no work permit will be required.

 

We questioned the 600K fund requirement and were told that it was based on an estimation that to live a halfway decent standard of life here you'll need about that 50K per month to survive. Not an unreasonable assumption, although I can hear the TV moaners already on that.

 

 

[impulse]

11 minutes ago, samran said:

We questioned the 600K fund requirement and were told that it was based on an estimation that to live a halfway decent standard of life here you'll need about that 50K per month to survive. Not an unreasonable assumption, although I can hear the TV moaners already on that.

 

I can't imagine a startup with less than $20,000 in available cash hoping to succeed anyway.  Maybe a one person YouTube or Facebook channel, but how does that help develop the local skills?

 

[samran]

24 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

The problem with that is for every one of the legitimate, high skilled candidates, there will be dozens of applicants whose main motive for being in Thailand is no more than cheap sex and consequence free booze.  If you're not going to start right off the bat hiring, training and developing the needed skillsets of the locals, the odds that you'll eventually get around to meeting the purpose of the program are pretty slim. 

 

It's telling that you characterize hiring the locals as "an indulgence".   It's the main driver for the program, not some kind of wishful, but unlikely consequence of it.

 

It is effectively an indulgene when you are forced to hire 4 locals for each single work permit. The stories are legendary of international law and engineering firms basically hiring tonnes of 'window cleaners' to meet the labour department requirements. I've always understood the good intent behind the rule, but it is even more impractical in this day and age.

 

It is even more of indulgene particularly in the modern era when many of these workers don't need the traditional office or staff requirements.

 

Being a Thai citizen I run a 100% owned local firm, and apart from a part time secretary don't need any more staff. All of my office requirements are outsourced to a partner firm who I pay a small fee too and have a desk at their offices. And that is it. I have about half a dozen regular clients. All are off shore. I do serious work for them (ie I'm not building websites) and that is the basis for a fairly substantive SME for me. 

[JackThompson]

24 minutes ago, impulse said:

The problem with that is for every one of the legitimate, high skilled candidates, there will be dozens of applicants whose main motive for being in Thailand is no more than cheap sex and consequence free booze. 

Those people will burn-out and end up booted for overstay or leaving on their own accord when they go broke.  Their behavior / lack of self-control creates their futures - Thailand or where ever.  The costs from the agent, quoted above, take care of the riff-raff.

 

24 minutes ago, impulse said:

If you're not going to start right off the bat hiring, training and developing the needed skillsets of the locals, the odds that you'll eventually get around to meeting the purpose of the program are pretty slim. 

Without the foot in the door, the odds go to zero of that happening.  Even if it doesn't happen in many cases, those foreigners' incomes still benefit the Thai + local economy.

 

24 minutes ago, impulse said:

It's telling that you characterize hiring the locals as "an indulgence".   It's the main driver for the program, not some kind of wishful, but unlikely consequence of it.

Small businesses simply cannot afford to do this in the global-economy, and compete with other companies in the same field, who don't have this restriction.  It's the same with the 2M Baht capital rule + hire 4 Thais in the existing system - simply not compatible with the market-reality of tech-startup's. 

 

The question is, does Thailand want those incomes spent here, and some % of those successful businesses to take root in Thailand and prosper - or for that to happen somewhere else?   I don't see a downside to those who never get past the "spending foreign income into the Thai economy," stage - whether that portion is 15% or 85% of the total over a multi-year period.

 

17 minutes ago, samran said:

We questioned the 600K fund requirement and were told that it was based on an estimation that to live a halfway decent standard of life here you'll need about that 50K per month to survive. Not an unreasonable assumption, although I can hear the TV moaners already on that.

It's better than the 800K they expect of retirees.  But I think we all understand they are concerned about filtering-out the riff-raff (sex and booze addicts), whom @impulse described, above.  Granted, many wealthy people have those problems, but they can afford to have them, so it doesn't become other's problem (as often).

 

My advise to those without the 500K is to work in Cambodia or Vietnam until that amount has been saved.  Hopefully for Thailand, not too many will end up staying and becoming prosperous there, instead of here.

[samran]

1 minute ago, impulse said:

 

I can't imagine a startup with less than $20,000 in available cash hoping to succeed anyway.  Maybe a one person YouTube or Facebook channel, but how does that help develop the local skills?

 

It is largely annecodtal, but there has been trend for these types (les call them knowledge workers) to congregate around particular cities in Thailand and from that an eco system of related (and mainly Thai) companies to congregate there.

 

Chiang Mai, Phuket, Samui are three regional cities which are starting to stand out.

 

Not to mention Bangkok. There is beginging to be a really interesting developments here and a strong mix of Thai and Foreign talent working together. There is also an increasing amount of local money willing to fund it.

 

This government is trying to engineer alot, but I'll give credit for understanding you can't over engineer how a tech hub develops. I think what they are trying to do strikes the right balance.

[impulse]

4 minutes ago, samran said:

Being a Thai citizen I run a 100% owned local firm, and apart from a part time secretary don't need any more staff. All of my office requirements are outsourced to a partner firm who I pay a small fee too and have a desk at their offices. And that is it. I have about half a dozen regular clients. All are off shore. I do serious work for them (ie I'm not building websites) and that is the basis for a fairly substantive SME for me. 

  

That's not the type of business they're trying to attract with visa/ work permit programs.  They aren't giving out work permits to entrepreneurs and hoping that results in Thai's being hired.  They're requiring it as a condition of giving out the work permits.

 

Your key words there are "a fairly substantive SME for me."  (Forget for a moment that you're a citizen)  How does that meet their goal of developing the local talent?  Why would they want to attract businesses to benefit foreigners with only a trickle down to the locals.  In fact, competition that probably takes business away from local firms who do hire locals?

 

[samran]

1 minute ago, impulse said:

  

That's not the type of business they're trying to attract with visa/ work permit programs.  They aren't giving out work permits to entrepreneurs and hoping that results in Thai's being hired.  They're requiring it as a condition of giving out the work permits.

 

Your key words there are "a fairly substantive SME for me."  (Forget for a moment that you're a citizen)  How does that meet their goal of developing the local talent?  Why would they want to attract businesses to benefit foreigners with only a trickle down to the locals.  In fact, competition that probably takes business away from local firms who do hire locals?

 

you may have missed my last post while drafting your response. Hopefully that largely answers it. Short answer, people are finding things are workign in a complementary manner.

[lkv]

3 minutes ago, samran said:

This government is trying to engineer alot, but I'll give credit for understanding you can't over engineer how a tech hub develops. I think what they are trying to do strikes the right balance.

Unfortunately, their track record is engineering the METV and the non O-X so far, and those are not looking too great are they?

[impulse]

5 minutes ago, samran said:

you may have missed my last post while drafting your response. Hopefully that largely answers it. Short answer, people are finding things are workign in a complementary manner.

 

I did miss it- and they are good points.  But hard to manage.  And I still contend that for every legitimate case, they'll be inundated with dozens of applications from mongers who keep praying that the long stay hurdles will come down the the point where they can squeak in with their $10,000, $50,000 or even $100,000 nest eggs.   

 

That's not their target demographic.  This program is meant to attract SME's that will develop local talent.  Over 90% of startups never go anywhere.  They'd end up giving out 10 long stay visas for every business that ever goes anywhere.  Attracting lots of foreigners who would then compete with locals instead of hiring and training them.  Instead of increasing the opportunities for locals who want to develop the skills and SME's anchored to Thailand, they'd be diminishing their opportunities.

 

[JackThompson]

4 minutes ago, impulse said:

Why would they want to attract businesses to benefit foreigners with only a trickle down to the locals.  In fact, competition that probably takes business away from local firms who do hire locals?

2 minutes ago, impulse said:

Attracting lots of foreigners who would then compete with locals instead of hiring and training them. 

I think the business-model is being missed, here.  "The Competition" for everyone in the field is mobile and global.  If competitors cannot operate here, they move to where they can operate, and the effect on Thais competing with them is the same (or worse, if where the competition moves has lower-overhead).  There is no way to "get rid of the competition" by making it difficult for them to operate in Thailand.  If the competitors move anywhere where "The Internet" exists, the competition remains.

 

All Thailand can offer mobile/global entrepreneurs, is a good balance of overhead-costs, infrastructure, and simple-visas - to attract talent - to make them say, "It's worth paying a bit more to operate out of Thailand vs (fill in the blank)." 

The talent / businesses cannot be forced to lose money vs their competition "for the good of the country" (see Venezuela for the extreme case) - which is why the aforementioned tech was making visa-runs - not putting up 2M Baht and hiring 4 Thais + a lawyer/accountant; it was not good business-sense to do so.

 

The case can be made to restrict-entry to Thailand in this context - not allowing their nation to be turned into a slum by the importation of cheap-labor, so that it remains safe, clean, and with less demand/costs for high-tax socialist "fixes" to immigrant-induced poverty.

[samran]

1 minute ago, impulse said:

 

I did miss it- and they are good points.  But hard to manage.  And I still contend that for every legitimate case, they'll be inundated with dozens of applications from mongers who keep praying that the long stay hurdles will come down the the point where they can squeak in with their $10,000, $50,000 or even $100,000 nest eggs.   

 

That's not their target demographic.  This program is meant to attract SME's that will develop local talent.  Over 90% of startups never go anywhere.  They'd end up giving out 10 long stay visas for every business that ever goes anywhere.  Attracting lots of foreigners who would then compete with locals instead of hiring and training them.  Instead of increasing the opportunities for locals who want to develop the skills and SME's anchored to Thailand, they'd be diminishing their opportunities.

 

They are well aware of the demographic who are going to try and outsmart the system. Your concerns are theirs.

 

At the same time, some of the strongest support for this type of visa has come from Thai companies themselves. Most of the people who are going to be suitable for these visas aren't going to be start ups. Rather, tried and true professionals who are doing work for a muliple number of clients and in many cases cutting edge stuff. These companies want these people here. The reasons are obvious.

 

Just because there might be only a 10 to 20% sucess factor isn't a good reason to stop it. In another meeting I had with the BOT not too long ago, there was the complaint that most of Thailand's economic growth isn't based on 'quality growth'. Thailand needs new industries and this will be (part) of that solution.

[lkv]

3 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The talent / businesses cannot be forced to lose money vs their competition "for the good of the country" (see Venezuela for the extreme case) - which is why the aforementioned tech was making visa-runs - not putting up 2M Baht and hiring 4 Thais + a lawyer/accountant; it was not good business-sense to do so.

+1

[LPCustom69]

I don't see the benefit for Thailand, as I don't think there is a wealth of talent to utilize. I hope that I am wrong, otherwise Thailand is stuck with:

 

Hordes of rude Chinese

Major influx of Russians

even more backpackers with laptops (Digital Nomads)

[NorthernRyland]

 

4 hours ago, samran said:

We questioned the 600K fund requirement and were told that it was based on an estimation that to live a halfway decent standard of life here you'll need about that 50K per month to survive. Not an unreasonable assumption, although I can hear the TV moaners already on that.

That's interesting, thanks for sharing. In Chiang Mai that's pretty out of touch imo, unless you expect us to be renting top tier homes and only eating at fancy restaurants. Not my style though and not the reason I came to Thailand.

[chickenrunCM]

ok, i not see anybody see what is the matter, this Visa is useless for DN, because you not aloowed to offer your work for Thai companies. No health insurance, costs you 20 times more than other options.

And you dont need a work permit to work for companies outside thailand. 

You pay 75000 Thb that you can stay in Thailand for 1 year.  This option you can get cheaper. 

When you want t work for thai companies nothing changes, limited company, 4 employies, aso

[samran]

1 hour ago, chickenrunCM said:

ok, i not see anybody see what is the matter, this Visa is useless for DN, because you not aloowed to offer your work for Thai companies. No health insurance, costs you 20 times more than other options.

And you dont need a work permit to work for companies outside thailand. 

You pay 75000 Thb that you can stay in Thailand for 1 year.  This option you can get cheaper. 

When you want t work for thai companies nothing changes, limited company, 4 employies, aso

The last part is simply not true. This visa will allow unrestricted work rights. 

[ChiangMaiLightning2143]

18 hours ago, Thaidream said:

While I can see the utility of this nomad Visa- and I like the idea of freedom etc from horrid companies and bosses-  there is a certain reality that bites.  If one chooses this lifestyle their earnings will be adequate for year by year living but what are they going to do when they reach retirement age and they have not earned any credits for a government pension, such as Social Security or pension schemes for other countries.  

As much as I would have loved to do this when I was younger- I figured out that I could make alot more money and build retirement working for a Western Corporation. Getting old in Thailand without a firm pension coming in every month is not recommended .

This is not a Nomad visa. There is no person or interest in Thai government trying to encourage more foreign DNs to come here. They are just more Farangs (with laptops), not seen as "high quality tourists".

 

Although nobody cares if you type on a internet connected laptop all day Digital Nomadism is illegul because most are here to work and enjoy a low cost of living using tourist visas as a way to live here.

[FritsSikkink]

16 hours ago, mjnaus said:

 

Been there, done that and will never bother again. Having access to literally a world of awesome talent, rolling the dice with Thai staff just isn't worth it. 

"Rolling the dice" ? 

If you do that your hiring policy/staff is not up to standards.

 

[Raymonddiaz]

On 12/24/2017 at 10:17 PM, Maestro said:

Source: https://www.stbcollaborations.com/blog/thailand-smart-visas

 

Thank you, Coconut Kidd, for having posted the link to the above information.

I prefer my NON B 1900 Baht.

[mjnaus]

29 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

"Rolling the dice" ? 

If you do that your hiring policy/staff is not up to standards.

 

No matter how effective and efficient your hiring process, hiring new staff ALWAYS has an element of uncertainty. Some hires work out, others don't. So yeah, with every new hire, you follow your process, do your diligence and then you role the dice, hoping the hire turns out to be good one. 

[JackThompson]

6 hours ago, ChiangMaiLightning2143 said:

This is not a Nomad visa. There is no person or interest in Thai government trying to encourage more foreign DNs to come here. They are just more Farangs (with laptops), not seen as "high quality tourists".

It depends on what you call a "nomad," really.  That scruffy-looking guy with a laptop on a Tourist Visa may be pulling down $50K+ USD/yr and investing for his future, or only scraping by on 20% of that. 

 

But this visa would seem to apply to those who can demonstrate a high-tech skill-set (degrees, etc), plus money "in the bank" (though agents might 'fix' this), plus have the income to afford the fees above. 

 

Until I see more details and we get reports, it is hard to say where the cut-off will be.  But - from what I've read so far - those barely scraping by, and with nothing but a high-school diploma, would not qualify.

[FritsSikkink]

16 hours ago, genericptr said:

 

That's interesting, thanks for sharing. In Chiang Mai that's pretty out of touch imo, unless you expect us to be renting top tier homes and only eating at fancy restaurants. Not my style though and not the reason I came to Thailand.

A person who wants to retire here needs to show more than that. Top tier homes go for way more than 50K a month and you could only eat a couple of times a month in fancy restaurants for that money too.

[FritsSikkink]

10 hours ago, chickenrunCM said:

ok, i not see anybody see what is the matter, this Visa is useless for DN, because you not aloowed to offer your work for Thai companies. No health insurance, costs you 20 times more than other options.

And you dont need a work permit to work for companies outside thailand. 

You pay 75000 Thb that you can stay in Thailand for 1 year.  This option you can get cheaper. 

When you want t work for thai companies nothing changes, limited company, 4 employies, aso

You DO need a work permit for working in Thailand, it doesn't matter where the companies are.

[Thaidream]

As they say the devil is in the details. We need to see an official announcement with firm details but if I had to guess- the average DN will not be eligible due to education; lack of financials  and salary.

 

Remember the 10 year Visa- well it's out there- go to the Thai Embassy Websites in Washington DC; London or Sydney for a look at these qualifications.  The Visa is called the O-X  Long Stay (Retirement) and they still have the old O-A but the O-X has heavy financials and you still have to go to Immigration every year.  I suspect the so called DN Visa is going to have similar issues once we know the details.

[Maestro]

Removed an exchange of off-topic bickering posts between two posters and the replies to them.

[mjnaus]

All everyone can do at this point is speculate, since it appears no official details about eligibility have been released yet. If all it takes is proving one earns a yearly income of say $50,000, there will be a significant number of location independent professionals and entrepreneurs who would quality for this visa, including a bunch that would fall under the "digital nomad" umbrella I guess. 

 

I guess we'll know in January.

[Maestro]

I'd like to suggest that the word "nomad" be studiously avoided in the discussion of this topic. None of the news articles I have seen on the topic of this planned 4-year visa, apparently to be called "smart visa", mentions nomads, digital or otherwise, but all mention the following:

 

Quote

The applicants must be investors, startup business owners, high-leveled executives, or highly-skilled professionals.