Education policy given a failing grade

[Khun Paul]

it is like the blind leading the blind, going nowhere intelligently , which is not surprising .

[Eric Loh]

4 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

I have posted this story before; a while back I saw an interview with Lee Kwan Yew (spelling) where he was asked if he worried for Singapore's future in relation to its neighbor's larger size and superior natural resources. He just smiled and asked, "What are their education systems like?".

Singapore has to thank the British and Lee Kuan Yew’s visionary ideas and singular drive. None evident in Thailand. 

[sawadeeken]

The 'Junta' (Thai Gov't) won't spend the money for education....... 'They' like to have a 'large pool' of domestic servants available for themselves and other 'HiSo's'.....  If the people were more educated the rich would have to pay more for maids and gardeners.......

Also, It came to my attention recently that So, So many young children in public schools have heads full of 'LICE' in their hair..... Passing them around and the Thai Gov't wont fund nurses for the schools to help treat them..........

But............... "Bring on the Submarines"..............

[scorecard]

8 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Singapore has to thank the British and Lee Kuan Yew’s visionary ideas and singular drive. None evident in Thailand. 

 

No British or other colonial input, and no Lee Kuan Yew, so it's all OK. Is that your message el?

 

Yes Thailand urgently desperately needs massive reform in education from top to bottom of everything associated with education at all levels. It's critical to everything associated with developing Thailand and getting large numbers of Thai out of poverty.

 

And your darlings had some 14 years of opportunity to get it started.

 

Did they ever put someone with knowledge and insight into the minister position? No!

 

In fact what did they achieve in education improvement let alone reform? Nothing, sweet nothing.

 

And the well known massive corruption within the same ministry just rolled on with close to zero challenge. 

 

Your mob should be ashamed of themselves.

 

Also true, other previous governments didn't do much either. 

Edited December 25, 2017 by scorecard

[Eric Loh]

6 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

No British or other colonial input, and no Lee Kuan Yew, so it's all OK. Is that your message el?

 

Yes Thailand urgently desperately needs massive reform in education from top to bottom of everything associated with education at all levels. It's critical to everything associated with developing Thailand and getting large numbers of Thai out of poverty.

 

And your darlings had some 14 years of opportunity to get it started.

 

Did they ever put someone with knowledge and insight into the minister position? No!

 

In fact what did they achieve in education improvement let alone reform? Nothing, sweet nothing.

 

And the well known massive corruption within the same ministry just rolled on with close to zero challenge. 

 

Your mob should be ashamed of themselves.

 

Also true, other previous governments didn't do much either. 

Honestly I don’t get what you trying to say and who’s the “darling” that has 14 years that you referring to. Seem you have a serious tunnel vision problem. 

[TKDfella]

Yes, I agree with others here. Junta personnel as Education Ministers??? What's going into the curriculum then? Battle Strategy etc.? Joking aside, Thailand does need to embrace change and, as I mentioned before, ancient customs and culture shouldn't be lost but we live in a vastly different and fast changing world. Unfortunately culture must take a back seat, or at least be left to those specific institutions, and education allowed to be updated. Our society is now spurred on by ever progressing science, not culture, which may be unfortunate but that's the way things are now.

[scorecard]

7 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Honestly I don’t get what you trying to say and who’s the “darling” that has 14 years that you referring to. Seem you have a serious tunnel vision problem. 

 

Yawn, none so blind as those who don't want to see, bye.

Edited December 25, 2017 by scorecard

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, ice4351 said:

As a retired educator from the USA, I would love to be able to sit down with the powers to be in Thailand and have a discussion on how to improve the education system.  Who could I contact?

Frankly, they have no interest in having that kind of conversation, and even if they did, would be unlikely to do anything about anything that would come from it.

[ThaiFelix]

38 minutes ago, Ossy said:

'Held back' . . . how? Are you suggesting that school directors are on a different agenda to the rest of the world of education? It's hard to believe that, as you suggest, there is energy and ability literally champing at the bit to help produce brighter kids. How can school bosses and ed. depts. be putting the brakes on such teacher resources?

I was an English KG teacher here for 10 years at a large private bilingual school.  I cant comment about govt schools.  It was very apparent to all that the directors were selected for their ability to make money and their loyalty to not swindle that money.  Education was certainly no where near the top of the school's list of priorities.  Enormous amounts of valuable learning time was wasted on the students putting on shows to impress the parents.  The main actors in these shows were always children of farang/Thai parents where the child actually learned English at home, not school.  With so much time wasted on these shows the teachers were always well behind with the books so they had to be rushed through to complete before end of semester. 

 

Another waste of time "show" for the parents was colouring.  All text books and worksheets had to be coloured perfectly.  I estimate one third of teaching time was wasted on colouring.  Sure colouring is essential for hand eye coordination with the little ones but this was to the point of ridiculous.  The kids soon hated it or just scrawled to get it finished.  Eventually when test/exam time came many would fail due to this rushing and loss of learning time.  We were instructed that all shall pass so all the children who failed would have to be retested and retested until they passed.  This meant the kids had to be dragged out of other classes for the retesting thus losing valuable learning time and getting behind in other subjects.  Eventually the teachers would have no choice but to basically give the students the answers in order to pass and get back to the classroom.

 

The parents are as much to blame for what went on at that school.  Because it was a private school the parents were all "hi-so".  While some parents pulled their children out after a few years many didnt and I couldnt understand it because it was so obvious the parents were not getting what they were paying for.  The Thai teachers would often explain it to me that these parents had money, their children would have jobs in the family business when they left school so they didnt care.  The one thing they did care about however was that their kids would be seen going to and fro from a hi-so school wearing a high-so uniform.

 

 

 

 

[Eric Loh]

5 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

Yawn, none so blind as those who don't want to see, bye.

You see 14 years. Which civilian government ever had the good fortune of 14 years tenure. Just how good are your seeing eyes or your bias mind. 

[Samui Bodoh]

What is wrong with the Thai education system?

 

It is a management failure. 

 

The root problem is that there is little impetus to change. A bright, young teacher graduates college and then begins the bureaucratic crap to get a job; bucking the system at that point is career suicide. Next, a teacher gets a job and wants to introduce new ideas and concepts to the system, but is stymied by the 'old-timers' sitting in the teachers lounge who are threatened by change. Further, the 'old-timers' have great influence over management by virtue of being old and there for a long time. Moving along, teachers in Thailand have to complete various bureaucratic BS in order to have qualifications (and thus salaries) raised, so trying new ideas in the classroom is contraindicated. Adding to the mix is the endless nonsense associated with being a teacher in Thailand; the students must learn Prayut's 12 bits of noise and other useless things. By the time a teacher is able and secure enough to introduce new ideas, s/he is an 'old-timer' thwarting the newcomers. Rinse and repeat.

 

I would also give a shout out to the parents; if they would complain then things would change, but they don't, at least not loudly enough. They should be screaming from the bloody rooftops!

 

Finally, you come to the Granddaddy of the system; the Ministry of Education. They have spent years and years building the system and don't want to see it destroyed. Further, those at the top promote like-minded people, so there is continuity for the idea of not changing things. Take a chain saw to the place and start over.

 

If you want to change the system, you start at the Principal level. You introduce the idea that his salary either rises or falls a bit depending on how the students do on the standardized tests (NOT the make-believe grades that the teacher hands out!). Next, you give him the power to promote/demote/hire/fire teachers in pursuit of higher standardized scores. And if results fall below a certain point, automatic dismissal. There is danger that teachers will simply "teach to the test", but given the current dismal state of Thai education, I'd risk it.

 

And above all else, fire lots and lots and lots of the people working at the Ministry of Education. Immediately. Then make them re-apply for their jobs and force them to justify their positions. I would guess that half would be gone inside a month.

 

I know, I know, it isn't going to happen, but...

 

Thailand faces an existential threat to its status in SE Asia. Vietnam is already passing it by, and even Burma has the potential to do so. If Thailand wants to have a good future, it needs drastic measures to reform and repair its education system. 

 

I would LOVE to see them do it, but I ain't holding my breath.

 

[Ossy]

27 minutes ago, ThaiFelix said:

I was an English KG teacher here for 10 years at a large private bilingual school.  I cant comment about govt schools.  It was very apparent to all that the directors were selected for their ability to make money and their loyalty to not swindle that money.  Education was certainly no where near the top of the school's list of priorities.  Enormous amounts of valuable learning time was wasted on the students putting on shows to impress the parents.  The main actors in these shows were always children of farang/Thai parents where the child actually learned English at home, not school.  With so much time wasted on these shows the teachers were always well behind with the books so they had to be rushed through to complete before end of semester. 

 

Another waste of time "show" for the parents was colouring.  All text books and worksheets had to be coloured perfectly.  I estimate one third of teaching time was wasted on colouring.  Sure colouring is essential for hand eye coordination with the little ones but this was to the point of ridiculous.  The kids soon hated it or just scrawled to get it finished.  Eventually when test/exam time came many would fail due to this rushing and loss of learning time.  We were instructed that all shall pass so all the children who failed would have to be retested and retested until they passed.  This meant the kids had to be dragged out of other classes for the retesting thus losing valuable learning time and getting behind in other subjects.  Eventually the teachers would have no choice but to basically give the students the answers in order to pass and get back to the classroom.

 

The parents are as much to blame for what went on at that school.  Because it was a private school the parents were all "hi-so".  While some parents pulled their children out after a few years many didnt and I couldnt understand it because it was so obvious the parents were not getting what they were paying for.  The Thai teachers would often explain it to me that these parents had money, their children would have jobs in the family business when they left school so they didnt care.  The one thing they did care about however was that their kids would be seen going to and fro from a hi-so school wearing a high-so uniform.

 

 

 

 

A superb post. What a great debate this has turned out to be.

[ThaiFelix]

5 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Frankly, they have no interest in having that kind of conversation, and even if they did, would be unlikely to do anything about anything that would come from it.

Correct, they have no interest and seem to think they know better.  An example for you is that as a teacher here for many years I was often called upon by my school to be the English MC for a show we were putting on for the parents.  One time my coordinator presented me with a typed narration of what they wanted me to present one occasion for checking.  The English was very poor so I told my coordinator I would need to edit it first, which I did on the spot, and returned it to her for retyping.  Two days later she brought it back to me looking very sheepish.  After looking at it I told her she had given me the wrong one because it look like a copy of what she had given me before my editing.  No she said to me shyly, the director had seen it and said my English was incorrect and the director had edited it herself!  This director was a Thai lady whose English abilities went little further than struggling to say "good morning"!!

 

It also made me wonder why a director, who thinks my English skills so poor. would keep me employed as an English teacher for so many years?? 

 

[Ossy]

16 minutes ago, Samui Bodoh said:

What is wrong with the Thai education system?

 

It is a management failure. 

 

The root problem is that there is little impetus to change. A bright, young teacher graduates college and then begins the bureaucratic crap to get a job; bucking the system at that point is career suicide. Next, a teacher gets a job and wants to introduce new ideas and concepts to the system, but is stymied by the 'old-timers' sitting in the teachers lounge who are threatened by change. Further, the 'old-timers' have great influence over management by virtue of being old and there for a long time. Moving along, teachers in Thailand have to complete various bureaucratic BS in order to have qualifications (and thus salaries) raised, so trying new ideas in the classroom is contraindicated. Adding to the mix is the endless nonsense associated with being a teacher in Thailand; the students must learn Prayut's 12 bits of noise and other useless things. By the time a teacher is able and secure enough to introduce new ideas, s/he is an 'old-timer' thwarting the newcomers. Rinse and repeat.

 

I would also give a shout out to the parents; if they would complain then things would change, but they don't, at least not loudly enough. They should be screaming from the bloody rooftops!

 

Finally, you come to the Granddaddy of the system; the Ministry of Education. They have spent years and years building the system and don't want to see it destroyed. Further, those at the top promote like-minded people, so there is continuity for the idea of not changing things. Take a chain saw to the place and start over.

 

If you want to change the system, you start at the Principal level. You introduce the idea that his salary either rises or falls a bit depending on how the students do on the standardized tests (NOT the make-believe grades that the teacher hands out!). Next, you give him the power to promote/demote/hire/fire teachers in pursuit of higher standardized scores. And if results fall below a certain point, automatic dismissal. There is danger that teachers will simply "teach to the test", but given the current dismal state of Thai education, I'd risk it.

 

And above all else, fire lots and lots and lots of the people working at the Ministry of Education. Immediately. Then make them re-apply for their jobs and force them to justify their positions. I would guess that half would be gone inside a month.

 

I know, I know, it isn't going to happen, but...

 

Thailand faces an existential threat to its status in SE Asia. Vietnam is already passing it by, and even Burma has the potential to do so. If Thailand wants to have a good future, it needs drastic measures to reform and repair its education system. 

 

I would LOVE to see them do it, but I ain't holding my breath.

 

Another good read. Seems like education will give road safety a good run for its money, when it comes to highest priority for attention . . . once we've got shut of Chicken-Legs, of course.

[CanuckThai]

Over 160 Colleges and Universities in Thailand, academics and education reformers, can't come up with a Thai word for "billion or trillion".....good luck with the rest, when you can't evolve your mother tongue to the times.....

[scorecard]

 

1 hour ago, Ossy said:

The root problem is that there is little impetus to change. A bright, young teacher graduates college and then begins the bureaucratic crap to get a job; bucking the system at that point is career suicide. Next, a teacher gets a job and wants to introduce new ideas and concepts to the system, but is stymied by the 'old-timers' sitting in the teachers lounge who are threatened by change.

 

True, my Thai nephew went to high school for 6 years in a first world western country where all education is fully student centered.

 

He returned to Thailand and 4 years back completed the new bachelor degree in education.

 

At his first school he introduced some student centered learning activities and pushed the students to ask questions, give comments and opinions in class.  

 

Within a week a dinosaurs deputation to the director demanded that the director order my nephew to stop what he doing in the classroom. Order issued immediately and nephew moved to a different school.

 

Within a few months nephew decided to give up teaching and was lucky enough to get a corporate communications position in a big modern Thai company.  

[Brunolem]

6 hours ago, Briggsy said:

The Thai education system has 2 goals, one unstated and one euphemistically stated.

 

2. The Thai education system has been a battleground for decades between reactionary forces who wish to preserve the current power structure and progressive forces who wish to change it. 

 

I see no chance for change in the near future.

The progressive forces are currently stationed in Dubai...hence their lack of influence...

[Brunolem]

4 hours ago, miamiman123 said:

 And there’s not enough room at the top for more smart bankers or politicians! 

IF you only knew! 

Bankers and politicians are not smart, they are sociopaths!

[Brunolem]

4 hours ago, ice4351 said:

As a retired educator from the USA, I would love to be able to sit down with the powers to be in Thailand and have a discussion on how to improve the education system.  Who could I contact?

Or maybe you could help the US education department which is doing its best to beat Thailand on its way down to the bottom...

[Brunolem]

3 hours ago, Ossy said:

'Held back' . . . how? Are you suggesting that school directors are on a different agenda to the rest of the world of education? 

Oh but they are!

Just look at who is really running the show, behind the uniformed frontmen...who owns everything and is not ready to share one bit with the local populace.

Education, as in developing thinking abilities, is a dangerous thing in a colony...

[jerojero]

As a retired educator from the USA, I would love to be able to sit down with the powers to be in Thailand and have a discussion on how to improve the education system.  Who could I contact?

Very good. You taught. There are more than 3,000,000 teachers currently doing the same in USA, whose Education system is hardly among the world's best. Yes, sit down with another country's Leaders and tell them how to do it like the USA. You got it covered it seems like no one else. Self proclaimed expert to Thailand's rescue.

 

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[Brunolem]

49 minutes ago, CanuckThai said:

Over 160 Colleges and Universities in Thailand, academics and education reformers, can't come up with a Thai word for "billion or trillion".....good luck with the rest, when you can't evolve your mother tongue to the times.....

Not to mention simplifying the alphabet!

Who needs 6 letters to express the sound S, or 6 for a T, or 4 for a K...?

 

[farcanell]

Crikey!

 

he went on and on and on..... almost as if he had to get it all out, before they came to arrest him ????

[Brunolem]

2 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

What is wrong with the Thai education system?

 

It is a management failure. 

 

 

No management failure here.

 

The system is working exactly as designed by the powers that be.

The populace remains in ignorance, while they gorge themselves at the country's buffet, and their children are studying abroad.

 

A well educated population is especially important in countries with a strong tertiary economy, which is not the case of Thailand, still mostly reliant on agriculture and manufacturing, where (cheap) hands are more needed than (expensive) brains.

 

 

[Ossy]

40 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

 

True, my Thai nephew went to high school for 6 years in a first world western country where all education is fully student centered.

 

He returned to Thailand and 4 years back completed the new bachelor degree in education.

 

At his first school he introduced some student centered learning activities and pushed the students to ask questions, give comments and opinions in class.  

 

Within a week a dinosaurs deputation to the director demanded that the director order my nephew to stop what he doing in the classroom. Order issued immediately and nephew moved to a different school.

 

Within a few months nephew decided to give up teaching and was lucky enough to get a corporate communications position in a big modern Thai company.  

How very sad. Seems like the so-called 'director' is becoming answerable to his senior staff, instead of visa-versa. For those self-important dinosaurs to feel so powerful and influential would suggest to me that there is insufficient competition for teaching posts, that there is a teacher shortage, allowing the old-timers to feel like they can stimey the new ideas and energy that your nephew tried to introduce. Is there a general teacher shortage? Until the Ministry of Ed and a stronger, more empowered inspection system can be put at the helm, I'm seeing a picture that, as other posters have suggested, is unlikely to change for a long time, or for a generation, a fellow poster said. Poor education, poor pretty well everything else, unless a kid's got unusually concerned and capable parents who can take up the slack.

[Ossy]

34 minutes ago, jerojero said:

Very good. You taught. There are more than 3,000,000 teachers currently doing the same in USA, whose Education system is hardly among the world's best. Yes, sit down with another country's Leaders and tell them how to do it like the USA. You got it covered it seems like no one else. Self proclaimed expert to Thailand's rescue.

 

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

Enter the Iceman . . . he'd better have something damn good - I mean pretty damn good - to answer that broadside . . . anyway chaps, heads down and whose turn is it for the tea?

[Essaybloke]

After coming to power more than three years ago, the military-installed government has already named three education ministers.

 

Wow, that's an exemplary use of euphemism so no need for improvements there.

But seriously folks....writing from my own family experience at a Thai high school, maybe demanding teachers STOP physically assaulting students may be a nice place to start.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, Brunolem said:

The progressive forces are currently stationed in Dubai...hence their lack of influence...

 

Ahha, a submission for the joke of the year awards.

 

Actually the paymaster appointed himself to the ed. minister portfolio with big fanfare of change, he achieved nothing whatever then quietly passed the portfolio to one of his cronies who knew nothing about the subject, was never quoted, achieved nothing whatever and quietly withdrew about 6 months later, then another unaligned crony appointed. 

 

Did yl pay any attention to education? No. 

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2017 by scorecard

[Jackin1960]

And I thought I was the only one who failed students while I was teaching in Thailand!!

Edited December 25, 2017 by Jackin1960
when to while

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, Ossy said:

allowing the old-timers to feel like they can stimey the new ideas and energy

 

Exactly what still happens. At two Thai universities where I lecture part-time the business school deans are selected by vote of the full-time (never worked outside) faculty, hence the current and potential deans are quite frightened, even intimidated by the faculty, mostly female, most will retire within 1 to 5 years and with this in mind they will push hard to ensure they don't have to adapt to new ideas in any way. 

 

Some years back there was an open seminar at one university, public invited to attend, on the agenda:

 

- 'Open discussion about the purpose of Education'.

 

One farang businessman (son studying at the same uni) stood up and said he believed the purpose of education is to give students the knowledge and deep understanding of what civil society means and how to build and maintain a worthwhile civil society where everybody contributes.

 

The assistant dean (very old female lifetime lecturer) was the moderator, she interrupted the father, said that his comments were not appropriate and closed the seminar.

Edited December 25, 2017 by scorecard